[zfs-discuss] Priorities (was: ZFS on 32bit x86)
Darren J Moffat wrote: This is an @opensolaris.org alias it is about working together as a community and identifying problems and discovering solutions. I don't think it is at all appropriate to bring up Sun business choices here. Where that is appropriate is when Sun employees need to justify to their manager what they are working on. Darren brings up a good point here, and I thank him for making me remember that this isn't just a Sun-only developer list. However, this does bring to light a current problem: who is working on what, and how do the various sponsoring entities prioritize work? I've run into this problem on a couple of large Open Source projects, and we do need to make things a bit more transparent. We have the same problem over here in the Java group - how do we coordinate bugfixing and feature additions within a large community of developers and users, where developers may come from a variety of sources, and users may also be interested in providing not just feedback/RFEs, but actual sponsorship for developer time. Obviously, a developer is going to be most interested in producing work that their sponsor thinks is important (and, naturally, it is very possible for a developer to be his or her own sponsor). For a developer who doesn't have specific work directed by the sponsor, there needs to be some way for the community to prioritize work for that developer. That is, we as the community need to be able to let the developers know what is important to us, in an organized way. Personally, I'd like to have the ZFS community have an open bug and RFE system that looks like the one for Java (check out: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/index.jsp), or something that provides similar features. We (the users) would have a much easier way to hunt down things going on with developers' work, and developers would have a much easier time determining what is considered widely important to the user community. I've previously bitched about a lack of view of feature schedules for ZFS. This would solve that problem, also. How about it folks - would it be a good idea for me to explore what it takes to get such a bug/RFE setup implemented for the ZFS community on OpenSolaris.org? -Erik ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Priorities
How about it folks - would it be a good idea for me to explore what it takes to get such a bug/RFE setup implemented for the ZFS community on OpenSolaris.org? what's wrong with http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/index.jsp for finding bugs? i think we've been really good about taking reported problems and filing bugs - if others disagree, feel free to speak up. I think what you're asking for should be solved at the opensolaris community level (if its not already there) - not specifically for ZFS. eric ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Priorities
EK == eric kustarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: EK what's wrong with http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/index.jsp EK for finding bugs? Unless they've fixed it recently, the keywords search doesn't actually check against the Bugster keywords field. And the information presented is pretty limited. I think there are other issues, but these are the ones that annoy me the most. We (the OpenSolaris core team) have been working with the people who own the b.o.o code to fix some of the most glaring issues in the short-term. We've also been working with the Bugster folks to come up with a long-term plan that puts the external community on more-or-less equal footing with Sun employees. (The difference would be that you have to be a Sun employee to see confidential information, like customer account names.) EK I think what you're asking for should be solved at the opensolaris EK community level (if its not already there) - not specifically for EK ZFS. Yes, please. If we can't work within the b.o.o framework (which is not an obvious conclusion to me), then at least let's implement something for the entire site. Having community-specific bug functionality is just going to mean duplicated work and an uneven user experience. mike ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Priorities
On Jun 23, 2006, at 1:09 PM, eric kustarz wrote: How about it folks - would it be a good idea for me to explore what it takes to get such a bug/RFE setup implemented for the ZFS community on OpenSolaris.org? what's wrong with http://bugs.opensolaris.org/bugdatabase/index.jsp for finding bugs? There's a LOT of things wrong with how b.s.o is presented. For us non-Sun people, b.s.o is a one-way ticket, and only when we're lucky. First, yes, we can search on bug keywords and categories. Great. Used to need a Sunsolve acct for this. But once we do that, we can only hope that the bugs we want to read about in detail aren't comprised solely of See Notes and that's it. It's like seeing To be continued... right before the climax of a movie. Useless and frustrating. Second, while there is a way for Joe Random to submit a bug, there is zero way for Joe Random to interact with a bug. No voting to bump or drop a priority, no easy way to find hot topic bugs, no way to add one's own notes to the issue. I guess the desperate just have to clog the system with new bugs and have them marked as dups or badger someone with a sun.com email address to do it for us. Third, much of end-to-end bug servicing from a non-Sun perspective is still an uphill battle, from acronyms and terms used to policies and coordination of work, e.g. Is someone in Sun or elsewhere already working on this particular bug I'm interested in? and questions which would stem from that basic one. In summary, the bug/RFE process is still a mystery after 1 year, and who knows if it'll stay the ginormous tease that it currently is. Really, it's still no better than if one had a Sunsolve account in years' past. /dale ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Priorities
* Erik Trimble [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-06-23 11:15]: It is a good start (yes, I know it's an interface to Bugster, just as the Java one I pointed out is too - in fact, it's probably the same code). And, I'm certainly not complaining about how well people have been taking to and addressing bugs. However, there are some significant shortcomings with the interface that need to be fixed. And, yes, this is true w/r/t the OpenSolaris community as a whole. Basically, the problem is that the OpenSolaris portal itself is extremely primitive, and really needs a big overhaul to make the information we have easily accessible in a coherent manner. Please come to either of website-discuss or tools-discuss and share your thoughts for improvement (or at least de-primitivization). And, in addition, the bug portal isn't really useful for helping manage external (to Sun) contributors work. And it doesn't given any real insight into who's working on what, and what schedules might be. I am not sure whether you are commenting on the lack of publication from the internal database (which may have this information), or the lack of this information more generally. - Stephen -- Stephen Hahn, PhD Solaris Kernel Development, Sun Microsystems [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://blogs.sun.com/sch/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Priorities
On Fri, Jun 23, 2006 at 02:20:54PM -0400, Dale Ghent wrote: Second, while there is a way for Joe Random to submit a bug, there is zero way for Joe Random to interact with a bug. No voting to bump or drop a priority, no easy way to find hot topic bugs, no way to add one's own notes to the issue. I guess the desperate just have to clog the system with new bugs and have them marked as dups or badger someone with a sun.com email address to do it for us. Aside: we track bug severity and priority separately. The former is for customers to decide, and each customer may assert different severities for the same bug, while the latter is for engineers and management to decide. As for the See comments problem, us engineers have been told to stop doing that, so that you should see very few _new_ CRs of that sort. In summary, the bug/RFE process is still a mystery after 1 year, and who knows if it'll stay the ginormous tease that it currently is. I hope not. Nico -- ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] Priorities (moving forums...)
Please refer all followups to this thread over to the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. On Fri, 2006-06-23 at 11:27 -0700, Stephen Hahn wrote: * Erik Trimble [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-06-23 11:15]: It is a good start (yes, I know it's an interface to Bugster, just as the Java one I pointed out is too - in fact, it's probably the same code). And, I'm certainly not complaining about how well people have been taking to and addressing bugs. However, there are some significant shortcomings with the interface that need to be fixed. And, yes, this is true w/r/t the OpenSolaris community as a whole. Basically, the problem is that the OpenSolaris portal itself is extremely primitive, and really needs a big overhaul to make the information we have easily accessible in a coherent manner. Please come to either of website-discuss or tools-discuss and share your thoughts for improvement (or at least de-primitivization). And, in addition, the bug portal isn't really useful for helping manage external (to Sun) contributors work. And it doesn't given any real insight into who's working on what, and what schedules might be. I am not sure whether you are commenting on the lack of publication from the internal database (which may have this information), or the lack of this information more generally. - Stephen As several others have pointed out, the current Bug/RFE interface is seriously broken for non-Sun users, and is missing quite a bit of functionality (both in the interface and in the data being stored) even for internal Sun folks. Off the top of my head: 1. The categories for bug submission and searching really need to be rethought. At the minimum, the search function should probably be more in line with the various communities on OS.org. That is, you probably should have main categories which line up with each of the O.S. communities, with subcategories being more specific. 2. Viewing bugs is a mess - access varies widely across external and internal users, bugs aren't consistently found/displayed, etc. 3. There is no development schedule information stored/available. e.g. when a particular Bug/RFE is expected to be fixed/included. 4. Who is working on a bug/RFE isn't available. 5. External users are effectively shut out of the bug/RFE database. It should be possible for a (properly authorized) external user to both update a bug status, and/or take ownership of the bug/RFE. 6. A better community-centric bug/RFE prioritization method needs to be developed. 7. Bug/RFE bounties need to be considered, along with a method of funding and payout for them 8. The UI for the whole Bug/RFE setup needs a drastic overhaul to make it simpler to view multiple/related bugs. -- Erik Trimble Java System Support Mailstop: usca14-102 Phone: x17195 Santa Clara, CA Timezone: US/Pacific (GMT-0800) ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
