Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
So I am starting a project to build content types through the web using the ZTK. Here is the url. http://specialtyjobmarkets.com/Wikis/LozinskiClasses/FrontPage Hi Christopher, I understand where you are. Four years ago, I made the transition from Zope2 to Zope3. It was about 12 months before the new technologies felt comfortable. In particular, my biggest irritation was Zope3 heads who had never used ZClasses and TTW development bad mouthing it. Recently, I have gravitated to Plone. There are a number of tools in Plone that demonstrate an interest in RAD in general and TTW as a RAD mechanism where appropriate. PloneFormGen has been improved recently. It is great for creating forms for creating content objects. ArchGenXML can generate the structure of complex applications. If you do it right, you can end up just writing the Python Code and File system is better in my opinion for that due to the debugger. However, it is tricky to get setup with argo uml in the first place. Plomino.net has a wonderful product that is very like python TTW development. It is not consistent with the Zope idioms, but it doesn't need to be because Plone users don't know them. It is very fast to develop and has good forms. I urge you to try it out. Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how not to repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I urge you to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version control, testability and the debugger. I made some edits on your wiki. Good Luck in your project Kevin Thank you for the recent feedback. It is nice to know that people care. I have added a section reviewing the competing technologies, and why they are not right for my needs. I have laid out the technical proposal, a bit high level, I need to make it more specific. For example I need to add what is the interface that is needed by Factory objects. The great thing about ZTK is that somewhere that is documented. I have added a section on my software philosophies. I am sure that it will drive some people nuts, but others will agree with it. Allow me to have my point of view. I also respect your point of view. I do get a bunch of people who say I am nuts. So positive feedback would be most appreciated. And of courses it is an anonymous wiki. I am using the ZWiki software. You are invited to add your comments. I have no idea what you will say, but I am sure it is useful. Regards Chris ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how not to repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I urge you to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version control, testability and the debugger. Also note that (the Plone integration for) Dexterity allows you to create types entirely through-the-web. This can then be meaningfully transitioned to filesystem development without forcing you to start from scratch. The big, big problem with any kind of TTW development is that it usually breaks down badly when you move your code to a production server and then need to continue development in a separate environment. Code and configuration stored in a database is difficult to deploy and merge when the same database holds live data and content. The same problem exists where more than one developer needs to collaborate. Without source files and source control, it's impossible to give each developer their own sandbox. Martin ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Martin Aspeli wrote: Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how not to repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I urge you to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version control, testability and the debugger. Also note that (the Plone integration for) Dexterity allows you to create types entirely through-the-web. This can then be meaningfully transitioned to filesystem development without forcing you to start from scratch. The big, big problem with any kind of TTW development is that it usually breaks down badly when you move your code to a production server and then need to continue development in a separate environment. Code and configuration stored in a database is difficult to deploy and merge when the same database holds live data and content. The same problem exists where more than one developer needs to collaborate. Without source files and source control, it's impossible to give each developer their own sandbox. We have this discussion in slighty various forms with Christopher every other year...I think it does not help much repeating the same arguments each year again...kind of hopeless if you ask me *shrug* - -aj -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (Darwin) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQGUBAEBAgAGBQJMh26XAAoJEADcfz7u4AZjXvsLwJlCEmfSiTyi9rBxztfUv2dK qClILApNqVZSMAYDYgulTqrVpmujrGeMphCfbKJp/p8AOXogh+1e2T5LJCV+rhm1 NMGfVKxNgp2M28MOWKuYICrTgaQXOzjas/tN/1Lv2nxt1q/SPs1kjue6rcdMbi7i fOfk/oTTVU5WFTHdZCHlVJdydTMNxbtFuf/wZ2wzFxNz5Rkqxj9YdZB7eBoYlONx Q1htycNDAgejQJ0uvvljnw8K3J1iixEpQI9OShmH4nstxQMj09DPRb2PKIaqRXGf WZiiCSIgteWPMWnh8slYYaEXtJDS3zTKQX45o7xYWRPd5pdHpbTyhHuVNhpn+gpV kbjOaLGBzYv9o1Modwgtb6uH1ysX2cjZEQqESjt/NL8Kzjk+CCeAHtcxlyD0Sqa2 nD7cZg+OivYgoOKIECuVleDpAY+XQwFp4fTLAovziZRbAEsSyhN2qvetGIPG8QcM dqock3W78YE98ZuTqOyNekzWO573GZc= =iKmj -END PGP SIGNATURE- attachment: lists.vcf___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZTK TTW Content Types Project Wiki
Don't be too harsh on Grok/Dexterity. Dexterity has worked out how not to repeat the definitions in interfaces, forms and content objects. It also produces an application with suprisingly little redundant code. I urge you to try it out. The benefits are of course quick turn around, version control, testability and the debugger. Also note that (the Plone integration for) Dexterity allows you to create types entirely through-the-web. This can then be meaningfully transitioned to filesystem development without forcing you to start from scratch. Is there a tool to do the meaningful transition. I like the ability to design the content type schema TTW, but I haven't got a button to export it (b2 + plone 3.3.5). I found this... The type definition can just be exported via portal_setup by exporting the types tool. We want some new UI for this. The schema will be in there, in escaped xml. You can also put this in a separate xml file, or define a zope 3 schema--use plone.directives.form for this. Also, is there a roadmap / vision. I used Dexterity earlier this year and loved it. But that was a standalone way to get grok to build a form with complex functionality. The TTW tool potentially gives the ability to customise classes built using dexterity. It is really cool. The big, big problem with any kind of TTW development is that it usually breaks down badly when you move your code to a production server and then need to continue development in a separate environment. Code and configuration stored in a database is difficult to deploy and merge when the same database holds live data and content. The same problem exists where more than one developer needs to collaborate. Without source files and source control, it's impossible to give each developer their own sandbox. These are all valid problems. I don't want to discuss them, because I am not advocating TTW. But I will point out that I worked around them all when doing TTW, e.g. APE allowed me to keep Code in SVN, multiple Zope instances allowed me to develop different branches, my data was in Postgres anyway etc. Martin ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] Zope Tests: 33 OK, 14 Failed, 2 Unknown
Summary of messages to the zope-tests list. Period Tue Sep 7 12:00:00 2010 UTC to Wed Sep 8 12:00:00 2010 UTC. There were 49 messages: 6 from Zope Tests, 2 from buildbot at enfoldsystems.com, 4 from buildbot at pov.lt, 19 from buildbot at winbot.zope.org, 8 from ccomb at free.fr, 10 from jdriessen at thehealthagency.com. Test failures - Subject: FAILED : winbot / ztk_dev py_244_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:12:53 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019582.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / ztk_dev py_254_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:15:28 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019583.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / ztk_dev py_265_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:18:30 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019584.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / ztk_dev py_265_win64 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:21:12 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019585.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / ztk_10 py_244_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:29:38 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019586.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / zc_buildout_dev py_244_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 17:03:55 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019590.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / zc_buildout_dev py_265_win64 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 17:40:05 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019593.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / zc_buildout_dev py_270_win64 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 18:04:39 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019595.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / ZODB_dev py_270_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 21:46:44 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019613.html Subject: FAILED : winbot / ZODB_dev py_270_win64 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 22:42:38 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019619.html Subject: FAILED : ZTK 1.0 / Python2.4.6 Linux 64bit From: ccomb at free.fr Date: Wed Sep 8 01:39:09 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019623.html Subject: FAILED : Zope Buildbot / zope2.12 slave-osx From: jdriessen at thehealthagency.com Date: Wed Sep 8 02:16:11 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019628.html Subject: FAILED : Zope Buildbot / zope2 slave-osx From: jdriessen at thehealthagency.com Date: Wed Sep 8 02:16:17 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019629.html Subject: FAILED : Zope Buildbot / ztk slave-osx From: jdriessen at thehealthagency.com Date: Wed Sep 8 02:16:21 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019630.html Unknown --- Subject: [zodb-tests] buildbot failure in Enfold Systems on zodb-trunk-python-2.6-maestro From: buildbot at enfoldsystems.com Date: Wed Sep 8 02:01:52 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019626.html Subject: [zodb-tests] buildbot failure in Enfold Systems on zodb-trunk-python-2.5-maestro From: buildbot at enfoldsystems.com Date: Wed Sep 8 02:03:47 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019627.html Tests passed OK --- Subject: OK : winbot / ztk_10 py_254_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:37:47 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019587.html Subject: OK : winbot / ztk_10 py_265_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:45:04 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019588.html Subject: OK : winbot / ztk_10 py_265_win64 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 16:52:40 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019589.html Subject: OK : winbot / zc_buildout_dev py_254_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 17:15:37 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019591.html Subject: OK : winbot / zc_buildout_dev py_265_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 17:28:04 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019592.html Subject: OK : winbot / zc_buildout_dev py_270_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 17:52:23 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019594.html Subject: OK : winbot / ZODB_dev py_254_win32 From: buildbot at winbot.zope.org Date: Tue Sep 7 18:59:49 EDT 2010 URL: http://mail.zope.org/pipermail/zope-tests/2010-September/019596.html Subject: OK : Zope Buildbot / zope2.12
[Zope] zope2 2.12 installation on Windows 7
Hi everybody,
I'm having some problems when I have to run a zope2 2.12 instance. Here are
the steps:
1. fresh install of Python 2.6.3 - python-2.6.3.msi
2. install pywin - pywin32-214.win32-py2.6.exe
3. install setup tools - setuptools-0.6c11.win32-py2.6.exe
4. install Zope2 using easy_install from egg - Zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg
5. create a new instance using mkzopeinstance.exe
Until here, everything worked great. Now , I modify the zope.conf to turn
the debug on and try to run the created instance. Here is the error that I
receive:
D:\ZopeFarms\212_services\binD:\PythonFarms\Python263\Scripts\runzope -C
D:\
ZopeFarms\212_services\etc\zope.conf
2010-09-08 13:39:29 INFO ZServer HTTP server started at Wed Sep 08 13:39:29
2010
Hostname: dragosh
Port: 8012
2010-09-08 13:39:32 ERROR Application Couldn't install Five
Traceback (most recent call last):
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
OFS\Application.py, line 671, in install_product
initmethod(context)
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
Products\Five\__init__.py, line 31, in initialize
zcml.load_site()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
Products\Five\zcml.py, line 51, in load_site
_context = xmlconfig.file(file)
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope.configuration-3.7.2-py2.
6.egg\zope\configuration\xmlconfig.py, line 653, in file
context.execute_actions()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope.configuration-3.7.2-py2.
6.egg\zope\configuration\config.py, line 600, in execute_actions
for action in resolveConflicts(self.actions):
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope.configuration-3.7.2-py2.
6.egg\zope\configuration\config.py, line 1507, in resolveConflicts
raise ConfigurationConflictError(conflicts)
ConfigurationConflictError: Conflicting configuration actions
For: ('adapter', (InterfaceClass zope.formlib.interfaces.IAction,),
Interfa
ceClass zope.browserpage.namedtemplate.INamedTemplate, u'render')
File D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\
zope.formlib-4.0.4-py2.6.eg
g\zope\formlib\configure.zcml, line 19.2-19.64
adapter factory=.form.render_submit_button name=render /
File D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\
zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.eg
g\Products\Five\formlib\configure.zcml, line 6.2-9.8
adapter
factory=.form.render_submit_button
name=render
/
For: ('adapter', (class 'zope.interface.exceptions.Invalid',
InterfaceClass
zope.publisher.interfaces.browser.IBrowserRequest), InterfaceClass
zope.forml
ib.interfaces.IWidgetInputErrorView, '')
File D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\
zope.formlib-4.0.4-py2.6.eg
g\zope\formlib\configure.zcml, line 22.2-25.8
adapter
factory=.errors.InvalidErrorView
permission=zope.Public
/
File D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\
zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.eg
g\Products\Five\formlib\configure.zcml, line 12.2-17.8
adapter
for=zope.interface.Invalid
zope.publisher.interfaces.browser.IBrowserRequest
factory=.errors.InvalidErrorView
permission=zope.Public
/
Traceback (most recent call last):
File D:\PythonFarms\Python263\Scripts\runzope-script.py, line 8, in
module
load_entry_point('Zope2==2.12.0', 'console_scripts', 'runzope')()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
Zope2\Startup\run.py, line 21, in run
starter.prepare()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
Zope2\Startup\__init__.py, line 87, in prepare
self.startZope()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
Zope2\Startup\__init__.py, line 264, in startZope
Zope2.startup()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
Zope2\__init__.py, line 47, in startup
_startup()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
Zope2\App\startup.py, line 117, in startup
OFS.Application.initialize(application)
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
OFS\Application.py, line 251, in initialize
initializer.initialize()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
OFS\Application.py, line 279, in initialize
self.install_products()
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
OFS\Application.py, line 492, in install_products
return install_products(app)
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
OFS\Application.py, line 523, in install_products
folder_permissions, raise_exc=debug_mode)
File
D:\PythonFarms\Python263\lib\site-packages\zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg\
OFS\Application.py, line
Re: [Zope] zope2 2.12 installation on Windows 7
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dragos Chirila wrote: Hi everybody, I'm having some problems when I have to run a zope2 2.12 instance. Here are the steps: 1. fresh install of Python 2.6.3 - python-2.6.3.msi 2. install pywin - pywin32-214.win32-py2.6.exe 3. install setup tools - setuptools-0.6c11.win32-py2.6.exe 4. install Zope2 using easy_install from egg - Zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg 5. create a new instance using mkzopeinstance.exe Until here, everything worked great. Now , I modify the zope.conf to turn the debug on and try to run the created instance. Here is the error that I receive: snip I took the above steps twice, second time after removing everything and still got the same error. I do not install any additional zope product or python package, just using the zope2 installation. I will appreciate any hints or ideas on this problem. Your traceback shows conflicting ZCML registrations between the version of zope.formlib you are using (4.0.4, very recent) and the version of Zope2 you are using (2.12.0, much older). Please try updating to the latest version of Zope2 (2.12.10), which pins the zope.formlib dependency to version 3.7.0. E.g.: bin\easy_install -U Zope2 You may need to remove the zope.formlib 4.0.4 egg first. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkyHdSoACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ7dQACeMi/lnLrOFBUnuEvKKQkVC+UH RSMAn00W+A3iQZCpKn99hLAsDzFKmAKv =X4x9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
Re: [Zope] zope2 2.12 installation on Windows 7
Hi Tres, I have upgraded to 2.12.10 and everything works great! Thank you very much, Dragos On Wed, Sep 8, 2010 at 2:36 PM, Tres Seaver tsea...@palladion.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dragos Chirila wrote: Hi everybody, I'm having some problems when I have to run a zope2 2.12 instance. Here are the steps: 1. fresh install of Python 2.6.3 - python-2.6.3.msi 2. install pywin - pywin32-214.win32-py2.6.exe 3. install setup tools - setuptools-0.6c11.win32-py2.6.exe 4. install Zope2 using easy_install from egg - Zope2-2.12.0-py2.6-win32.egg 5. create a new instance using mkzopeinstance.exe Until here, everything worked great. Now , I modify the zope.conf to turn the debug on and try to run the created instance. Here is the error that I receive: snip I took the above steps twice, second time after removing everything and still got the same error. I do not install any additional zope product or python package, just using the zope2 installation. I will appreciate any hints or ideas on this problem. Your traceback shows conflicting ZCML registrations between the version of zope.formlib you are using (4.0.4, very recent) and the version of Zope2 you are using (2.12.0, much older). Please try updating to the latest version of Zope2 (2.12.10), which pins the zope.formlib dependency to version 3.7.0. E.g.: bin\easy_install -U Zope2 You may need to remove the zope.formlib 4.0.4 egg first. Tres. - -- === Tres Seaver +1 540-429-0999 tsea...@palladion.com Palladion Software Excellence by Designhttp://palladion.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkyHdSoACgkQ+gerLs4ltQ7dQACeMi/lnLrOFBUnuEvKKQkVC+UH RSMAn00W+A3iQZCpKn99hLAsDzFKmAKv =X4x9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ) -- Dragos Chirila objectval...@gmail.com (+4) 0722 395375 ___ Zope maillist - Zope@zope.org https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce https://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev )
