To pour fuel on the flames...
+1 DTML
-1 ZPT
Why...
1) For 'quick and dirty' demos and rapid application prototyping DTML
does the trick (yes, even including ZClasses), it is fast, easy,
reasonably robust and it works!
2) For 'heavy lifting' (ie. intense computation, high loads, etc.) I
prefer a 'product' approach.
3) For client-side functionality/control I prefer an AJAX approach
using a combination of javascript/HTML/XHTML/XHTML-MP plus server-side
python scripts/external methods/products.
ZPT is a bit of a hybrid which increases overhead and doesn't really
bring any new functionality to the table (for my applications and
environment). Yes, for separating (well, mostly separating) content
from display formatting ZPT is one possible solution, but the divorce
of content and presentation is better achieved with an AJAX type of
approach.
I think Zope beginners would be better off using DTML (easier to
learn, user's get quicker results and therefore have more satisfaction
with Zope as a development platform), and then 'serious' development
should be done using an AJAX approach with Zope 3 - the way of the
future imho :-)
If we had to make a choice for the future I would prefer Zope 2 + DTML
and Zope 3 + AJAX (and consign ZPT to the 'good idea at the time'
bin). Possibly, in the distant future, AJAX utilities/ides will exist
which will make rapid prototyping and 'quick & dirty' demos feasible,
in which case Zope 2 + DTML could fade into happy history.
Just my 1-1/2 cents.
Jonathan
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Greg Fischer <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
*Cc:* zope@zope.org <mailto:zope@zope.org>
*Sent:* Sunday, January 08, 2006 5:06 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Zope] Leave the ivory tower now!
Yes, we need hype! And a "hot" looking site, WITH Web 2.0 features.
Many of these frameworks are providing AJAX capabilities, simple
graphics and data/object access without page reloads. (like I am
using with Dojo right now) What does Zope not provide these
features "built-in"?
And yes, about the central docs. A ton of info is available right
on Zope.org <http://Zope.org>, but I always find more on
individual blogs or other google searches. Zope.org
<http://Zope.org>could use a more intuitive help finder maybe.
Actually, how aboot a Zopedigg? Diggs on just Zope articles and
such, with comments? That would be hot! Better and easier than a
wiki, IMHO. The one thing I would say is, from my perspective,
when I have info to share on Zope work I have done, I like to post
on my blog or site, not Zope's. Because I like to provide a demo
or maybe include things *my* way. Having a ZopeDigg would allow
us to post our work in a central repository, and look a little
flashy too.
The video tutorial should be made. Like RoR and Symfony-project
have. It shows beginners how easy something is to do. And they
will download it. I did.
Also, I know this will get some people flaming probably, but Zope
needs more hype for DTML. I KNOW! 99% of you hate it. But every
time I show someone how to do it, their eyes light up. It's very
simple coming from ASP or PHP, once you see it in action. ZPT is
just plain confusing to me. I hate to say this too, but I am
doing much more in PHP these days, partly due to the fact that
there exists a large "dtml sucks" attitude in the community. And
even though it has been said that DTML is not going away, if there
is no hype about it, then it might. And I don't want to keep
using Zope without it. Yes, yes, I know DTML has many
disadvantages, but it also has many advantages. I wish there were
more hype about it.
So, here's a big "wish" of mine too. What if Zope was a
*complete* framework, including a web based IDE? I dont mean the
ZMI, which is hot in itself, but a full featured AJAX-ish IDE,
built upon Zope. Drag and drop widgets and properties even. It
would also have full database access built in. Mysql, Mssql,
Oracle, Postgresql, all ready to go, without needing to purchase
and configure a database adapter. This would provide a web based,
development framework like .NET using Visual Studio. Only this
would work on Zope, and therefore would run on Linux OR Windows!
It doesnt have to be so comprehensive like VS, but simple form
editor with properties and XMLHTTPRequest capability would be
great. I think we would have a KILLER APP!
Well, maybe I am dreamin? Just thought I'd give my 2 cents.
Oh, and is the community growing? Well, I think the Netcraft
surveys say a lot. I know this isnt definitive, but I think it's
great info. Since I started using Zope in 2002, the sites using
Zope have grown from 6000 to 42000. Cool!
42000+ Sites in 2006
http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0601/
6000+ Sites in 2002
http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/
<http://survey.netcraft.com/Reports/0201/>
Happy new year everyone!
On 1/3/06, *Jonathan Cyr* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
wrote:
Do we know.... Is the Zope community growing or shrinking? Is
there even a problem? Is Python growing or shrinking? Is
there any connection?
Zope.org <http://Zope.org> seems to have been built as a
community center, with accounts/ 3rd party add-ons etc. Is it
working. RubyonRails.com has none of this functionality.
Perhaps a GetZope.com site, similar to GetFirefox.com is in
order, that provides a very small amount of "get started"
information.
Two Cents,
-Jon
Gert Thiel wrote:
Dear friends.
A few days ago the Ruby on Rails development team published the 1.0 release.
At that occasion the Zope fans are reminded how far Zope fell far behind in
terms of attention and recognized widespread.
Python has batteries included. Zope is a power plant. But still everyone
speaks of Django, Turbogears or Ruby on Rails. Even if they talk about the
shortcommings of J2EE.
Some of the best content management systems are build using Zope 2. CPS, ZMS
and my favourite: Plone. And Typo3 gets even more attention. Why?
Because we failed. We aren't marketing Zope at all. Have a look at
zope.org <http://zope.org>.
Do you think, that any CEO will stay at that site more than 10 seconds? Have
a look at rubyonrails.org
<http://rubyonrails.org> and cry. Zope 3.2 will be delivered soon. Have any
look at zope.org <http://zope.org> ‹ where isŠ You got it.
To a certain extent Zope 2 was attracting like a nuclear power plant.
Whenever I start programming with Zope 2, latest for Plone, I can feel its
power before even diving into it much, but I'm alarmed of its pitfalls at
the very same time. So all my hopes are with Zope 3 which enabled me without
hurting me yet. Will I get a truly powerful replacement for J2EE?
Here are my ideas to make Zope 3 the most successful framework ever:
Make them love Zope at the very first look:
* Make installing Zope a double-click or one-command-only experience and
* offer a 30 minutes tutorial of programming an useful application
including an audiovisual show for an appetizer that offers a feeling
of success.
Bribe the managers:
* Include Microsoft SQL-Server and Oracle relational database access.
* Include powerful XML processing facilities and
* include everything necessary and useful to build or use web services.
Enable the beginners:
* Easy to read and understand ‹ but still complete and current ‹
documentation is a must.
* Avoid cluttering everything about Zope across articles, blogs, chats,
mailing lists and wikis. Keep everything available and searchable at
one central location.
Remember: The power of Ruby on Rails doesn't come from either Ruby or the
framework but from its community.
And ‹ of course ‹ make Zope 4 even better.
Regards,
Gert
http://www.gertthiel.de/blog/drafts/ivory-tower/
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--
Jonathan Cyr
http://www.cyr.info
http://www.weddingweblog.com
[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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--
Greg Fischer
1st Byte Solutions
http://www.1stbyte.com
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