Re: [Zope-dev] ZPublisher/ZServer interaction (was Re: A modest proposal)
At 10:23 AM 10/12/01 -0400, Paul Everitt wrote: Wow, this is one hell of a thread. :^) FWIW, Grisha put a Bobo publisher in mod_python a couple of years ago. Thus, if you like ZPublisher-style processing, you can do it in Apache via mod_python. Personally, I prefer to keep a process boundary between Apache and my apps, for both safety and security. Usually they're running as different users, for one thing. We've been very pleased with FastCGI performance using mod_fcgi, so I don't see a whole lot to be gained by using mod_python. Another interesting factor that can affect performance is that we usually run many pre-forked Apache child processes, but rarely have more than 2 or 3 application processes. Using mod_python would probably impact memory usage adversely, since there would then be in effect a larger application pool. A somewhat simplistic analysis of memory usage in the different approaches: O = Fixed application overhead (e.g. Python modules) D = Application dynamic data A = size of an Apache process P = Memory used for a python interpreter (if the OS shares executable segments, ignore the code size, as it will be a constant for all approaches and thus irrelevant for comparison purposes. In that case consider P will be the interpreter's data size) n = Number of threads or processes in the app server pool s = Number of Apache servers Zope w/Apache frontend = P + O + D*n + A*s mod_python = (P+O+D)*s + A*s ZLite = (P+O+D)*n + A*s Since n is usually smaller than s, the ZLite approach uses considerably less memory than the mod_python approach, but can be faster than the Zope+Apache combination on multi-processor machines when the Python interpreter lock is an issue, at an extra cost of only (P+O)*(n-1). In our situations, that usually amounts to at most 2 or 3 times P+O, which is a small price to pay for also being able to ignore all threading issues. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] ZPublisher/ZServer interaction (was Re: A modest proposal)
I don't know, there were quite a lot of ideas brought up. It started with a discussion of Twisted being swappable for Medusa. Since Itamar is a developer of Twisted, he should champion that effort (he knows a lot more Zope than any of us know Twisted). There was also a discussion about replacing Medusa by embedding in Apache. While Michel said we had thought about it, that's about the extent: we've thought about it. It isn't even scheduled for further thinking at this point. I think the best thing is for some people that care deeply about this to go off and prototype a little bit and see what's involved. --Paul Andy McKay wrote: So did we at least get a fishbowl out of it? Cheers. -- Andy McKay. - Original Message - From: Paul Everitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Phillip J. Eby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2001 7:23 AM Subject: Re: [Zope-dev] ZPublisher/ZServer interaction (was Re: A modest proposal) Wow, this is one hell of a thread. :^) FWIW, Grisha put a Bobo publisher in mod_python a couple of years ago. Thus, if you like ZPublisher-style processing, you can do it in Apache via mod_python. I outta contact him and see if he'd consider putting page templates in mod_python. Might be good for both page templates and mod_python. --Paul Phillip J. Eby wrote: At 08:00 AM 10/10/01 -0700, kapil thangavelu wrote: sadly the distinction between zpublisher and zserver is nowhere near as clean, i spent some time looking at it this morning trying to get my server of choice using zope. i thought it would be a mid morning hack, but the rabit hole follows the class heirarchy deeper and deeper:). all i have to show for my results is zope's output dumped to the server logs. its a start though... hopefully we get some new religion in the publisher, please... Hmm... Check out: http://cvs.eby-sarna.com/pylib/ZLite/ Specifically, the ZPlumbing module, for several examples of ZPublisher run loops using CGI and two different FastCGI modules. I don't know anything about Twisted, so I couldn't tell you how easy it'd be to use the ZLite framework for this. ZLite is the beginnings of my work on a Zope Lite distribution. It's sort of the Standalone ZODB distribution's evil twin - intended if you want to use almost anything *but* the ZODB and ZMI parts of Zope. That is, when you just want the app server without the IDE and application framework. Architecturally, it's intended for multi-process, single thread setups using Apache as a front-end, with FastCGI. This shouldn't be considered an announcement or a release, btw. The code in CVS is production-hardened by years of service (many millions of hits served), but is utterly without documentation, nor has everything I've written been checked into CVS yet. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope ) ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
[Zope-dev] ZPublisher/ZServer interaction (was Re: A modest proposal)
At 08:00 AM 10/10/01 -0700, kapil thangavelu wrote: sadly the distinction between zpublisher and zserver is nowhere near as clean, i spent some time looking at it this morning trying to get my server of choice using zope. i thought it would be a mid morning hack, but the rabit hole follows the class heirarchy deeper and deeper:). all i have to show for my results is zope's output dumped to the server logs. its a start though... hopefully we get some new religion in the publisher, please... Hmm... Check out: http://cvs.eby-sarna.com/pylib/ZLite/ Specifically, the ZPlumbing module, for several examples of ZPublisher run loops using CGI and two different FastCGI modules. I don't know anything about Twisted, so I couldn't tell you how easy it'd be to use the ZLite framework for this. ZLite is the beginnings of my work on a Zope Lite distribution. It's sort of the Standalone ZODB distribution's evil twin - intended if you want to use almost anything *but* the ZODB and ZMI parts of Zope. That is, when you just want the app server without the IDE and application framework. Architecturally, it's intended for multi-process, single thread setups using Apache as a front-end, with FastCGI. This shouldn't be considered an announcement or a release, btw. The code in CVS is production-hardened by years of service (many millions of hits served), but is utterly without documentation, nor has everything I've written been checked into CVS yet. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://lists.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
