Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
Hi Chris >> If you still want an instance, yes. I don't particularly like instances >> as we've had them with Zope 2 and Zope 3 (they don't quite work in a >> WSGI environment). > > So what do you do instead? > How do people get a zope 3 project/application/whatever up and running? I'm also left wondering .. >>> If so, could the owners of these packages hide, remove or otherwise >>> document that they're out of date: >>> >>> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3checkout/1.2 >>> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3instance/1.0.0a1 >>> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/gocept.zope3instance/2.0a2 [...] > > That is getting a bit old. The confusion from having this cruft lying > around (in the same way as accidentally released packages) is causing a > lot more hurt [...] Fully agreed .. PyPI sometimes becomes a maze of twisty packages, all alike. Without metadata to show that there are these alternatives, and what their status is, PyPI becomes write-only. You can't browse it and get good information. Instead, you have to learn about the right package to use from a mailing list or elsewhere. Sometimes setuptools compounds the issue by finding dev releases, or old releases, or needlessly upgrading a package and thereby breaking something you already have. When I still used Gentoo a few years ago, portage seemed like it was doing a pretty good job of managing this kind of issue. However the rules about getting something into portage were more strict. -- jean . .. //\\\oo///\\ ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
Paul Winkler wrote: >> That argument neglects to include people that don't cache eggs (for >> whatever reason) and people that need to build on a machine that may >> have never cached the egg in question (like deploying brand new >> servers). > > +99 > > Deleted releases can cause massive unintended pain downstream, > regardless of how sensible it may seem at the time. Just Don't Do It > Ever. I just don't buy this argument when the egg in question isn't intended for release and likely isn't even usuable. Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 08:21:07AM -0400, Benji York wrote: > On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > That is getting a bit old. The confusion from having this cruft lying > > around (in the same way as accidentally released packages) is causing a > > lot more hurt tham people who're already using this (and hence already > > have a local copy of the egg, which they can keep using should no egg be > > available on pypi) would experience if they went away. > > That argument neglects to include people that don't cache eggs (for > whatever reason) and people that need to build on a machine that may > have never cached the egg in question (like deploying brand new > servers). +99 Deleted releases can cause massive unintended pain downstream, regardless of how sensible it may seem at the time. Just Don't Do It Ever. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 9:46 AM, Marius Gedminas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I heard people complaining a lot about find-links in setup.py files. Indeed; using those find-links (dependency-links?) leads to potentially using untrusted package sources unintentionally. Fortunately, buildout offers a way to disable these ([buildout] use-dependency-links). > find-links in your buildout.cfg might be OK. Indeed; this is where the set of package sources should be identified. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. "Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
Marius Gedminas wrote: >>> At the *very* least it's take about 2 minutes for a package manager to >>> put a large "DO NOT USE - THIS IS ONLY HERE TO SUPPORT EXISTING SETUPS" >>> at the top of the text on pypi to stop innocent bystanders getting >>> caught out. > > That's a very good idea. It should also point people to the current > package that does the same thing. > > E.g. the description of zope.app.form currently says > > More advanced alternatives are implemented in zope.formlib and z3c.form. > > near the top. Great, if only I had the access, I'd do it where it was needed... >> Remove packages on Pypi only (and not on download.zope.org). > > You'll get shouted at if you remove something from PyPI. Trust me. Which is pathetic. I really don't get this. Yes, theoretically you could leave someone with an old package (well, d'uh, it's the last version of it they're ever going to get so what's the problem) or someone stranded on an newer-according-to-setuptools-but-never-actually-released version, in which case they should be using buildout's prefer-released thingy and pester Phil Eby to make setuptools less braindead here... >> The >> response here is find-links option, I think. > > I heard people complaining a lot about find-links in setup.py files. Hell yes, I didn't even know you could do that. Take 'em out and shoot 'em! > find-links in your buildout.cfg might be OK. Indeed, this is where it should belong, or on the easy_install command line if you're not using buildout. cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
Sebastien Douche wrote: > On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 00:11, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Please don't remove things! Never ever. People might still be using them. >> That is getting a bit old. The confusion from having this cruft lying >> around (in the same way as accidentally released packages) is causing a >> lot more hurt tham people who're already using this (and hence already >> have a local copy of the egg, which they can keep using should no egg be >> available on pypi) would experience if they went away. > > +1. Glad I'm not the only one. >> At the *very* least it's take about 2 minutes for a package manager to >> put a large "DO NOT USE - THIS IS ONLY HERE TO SUPPORT EXISTING SETUPS" >> at the top of the text on pypi to stop innocent bystanders getting >> caught out. > > Remove packages on Pypi only (and not on download.zope.org). The > response here is find-links option, I think. Why not download.zope.org too? Certainly I wish download.zope.org/distribution would go away... cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>> If you still want an instance, yes. I don't particularly like instances >>> as we've had them with Zope 2 and Zope 3 (they don't quite work in a >>> WSGI environment). >> So what do you do instead? >> How do people get a zope 3 project/application/whatever up and running? > > http://wiki.zope.org/zope3/ZopeForMereMortals This recommends zopeproject, which Philipp has said he's not currently supporting or maintaining :-S Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 03:02:32AM +0200, Sebastien Douche wrote: > On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 00:11, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Please don't remove things! Never ever. People might still be using them. > > > > That is getting a bit old. The confusion from having this cruft lying > > around (in the same way as accidentally released packages) is causing a > > lot more hurt tham people who're already using this (and hence already > > have a local copy of the egg, which they can keep using should no egg be > > available on pypi) would experience if they went away. > > +1. > > > Yes, ideally there should be some way to hide them on pypi such that > > setuptools still finds them but that they don't strip up unsuspecting > > users. Does pypi support this? > > > > At the *very* least it's take about 2 minutes for a package manager to > > put a large "DO NOT USE - THIS IS ONLY HERE TO SUPPORT EXISTING SETUPS" > > at the top of the text on pypi to stop innocent bystanders getting > > caught out. That's a very good idea. It should also point people to the current package that does the same thing. E.g. the description of zope.app.form currently says More advanced alternatives are implemented in zope.formlib and z3c.form. near the top. > Remove packages on Pypi only (and not on download.zope.org). You'll get shouted at if you remove something from PyPI. Trust me. > The > response here is find-links option, I think. I heard people complaining a lot about find-links in setup.py files. find-links in your buildout.cfg might be OK. Marius Gedminas -- Bumper sticker: No radio - Already stolen. signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
On Tue, Aug 19, 2008 at 6:11 PM, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: >> Please don't remove things! Never ever. People might still be using them. > > That is getting a bit old. The confusion from having this cruft lying > around (in the same way as accidentally released packages) is causing a > lot more hurt tham people who're already using this (and hence already > have a local copy of the egg, which they can keep using should no egg be > available on pypi) would experience if they went away. That argument neglects to include people that don't cache eggs (for whatever reason) and people that need to build on a machine that may have never cached the egg in question (like deploying brand new servers). > At the *very* least it's take about 2 minutes for a package manager to > put a large "DO NOT USE - THIS IS ONLY HERE TO SUPPORT EXISTING SETUPS" > at the top of the text on pypi to stop innocent bystanders getting > caught out. If a package is truly in that state, then yes a prominent warning should be added. -- Benji York Senior Software Engineer Zope Corporation ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
On Tue, 2008-08-19 at 23:11 +0100, Chris Withers wrote: > Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: > >> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.zope3recipes > >> > >> ? > > > > If you still want an instance, yes. I don't particularly like instances > > as we've had them with Zope 2 and Zope 3 (they don't quite work in a > > WSGI environment). > > So what do you do instead? > How do people get a zope 3 project/application/whatever up and running? *I* (as in gocept) am perfectly happy with the zope3recipes instances. -- Christian Theune · [EMAIL PROTECTED] gocept gmbh & co. kg · forsterstraße 29 · 06112 halle (saale) · germany http://gocept.com · tel +49 345 1229889 7 · fax +49 345 1229889 1 Zope and Plone consulting and development signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 00:11, Chris Withers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Please don't remove things! Never ever. People might still be using them. > > That is getting a bit old. The confusion from having this cruft lying > around (in the same way as accidentally released packages) is causing a > lot more hurt tham people who're already using this (and hence already > have a local copy of the egg, which they can keep using should no egg be > available on pypi) would experience if they went away. +1. > Yes, ideally there should be some way to hide them on pypi such that > setuptools still finds them but that they don't strip up unsuspecting > users. Does pypi support this? > > At the *very* least it's take about 2 minutes for a package manager to > put a large "DO NOT USE - THIS IS ONLY HERE TO SUPPORT EXISTING SETUPS" > at the top of the text on pypi to stop innocent bystanders getting > caught out. Remove packages on Pypi only (and not on download.zope.org). The response here is find-links option, I think. Regards. -- Seb ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
Philipp von Weitershausen wrote: >> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.zope3recipes >> >> ? > > If you still want an instance, yes. I don't particularly like instances > as we've had them with Zope 2 and Zope 3 (they don't quite work in a > WSGI environment). So what do you do instead? How do people get a zope 3 project/application/whatever up and running? >> If so, could the owners of these packages hide, remove or otherwise >> document that they're out of date: >> >> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3checkout/1.2 >> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3instance/1.0.0a1 >> http://pypi.python.org/pypi/gocept.zope3instance/2.0a2 > > Please don't remove things! Never ever. People might still be using them. That is getting a bit old. The confusion from having this cruft lying around (in the same way as accidentally released packages) is causing a lot more hurt tham people who're already using this (and hence already have a local copy of the egg, which they can keep using should no egg be available on pypi) would experience if they went away. Yes, ideally there should be some way to hide them on pypi such that setuptools still finds them but that they don't strip up unsuspecting users. Does pypi support this? At the *very* least it's take about 2 minutes for a package manager to put a large "DO NOT USE - THIS IS ONLY HERE TO SUPPORT EXISTING SETUPS" at the top of the text on pypi to stop innocent bystanders getting caught out. cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
Re: [Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
Chris Withers wrote: > Am I right in thinking that this is now the canonical way to get a "zope > 3 instance": > > http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.zope3recipes > > ? If you still want an instance, yes. I don't particularly like instances as we've had them with Zope 2 and Zope 3 (they don't quite work in a WSGI environment). > If so, could the owners of these packages hide, remove or otherwise > document that they're out of date: > > http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3checkout/1.2 > http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3instance/1.0.0a1 > http://pypi.python.org/pypi/gocept.zope3instance/2.0a2 Please don't remove things! Never ever. People might still be using them. ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
[Zope3-Users] building zope 3 instances?
Hi All, Am I right in thinking that this is now the canonical way to get a "zope 3 instance": http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.zope3recipes ? If so, could the owners of these packages hide, remove or otherwise document that they're out of date: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3checkout/1.2 http://pypi.python.org/pypi/zc.recipe.zope3instance/1.0.0a1 http://pypi.python.org/pypi/gocept.zope3instance/2.0a2 cheers, Chris -- Simplistix - Content Management, Zope & Python Consulting - http://www.simplistix.co.uk ___ Zope3-users mailing list Zope3-users@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope3-users
