Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[JOHN BAUGHMAN via 4D_Tech]

Robert,

I suggested Xojo, but when I posted I don’t think I had yet done my 
Xojo/4D presentation on 4DMethod. You might take a look if you haven’t already…


https://4dmethod.com/2018/04/16/april-25th-meeting-4d-with-a-xojo-web-app-front-end-john-baughman/
 

Sorry if I am repeating myself.

John


John Baughman
1331 Auwaiku Street
Kailua, Hawaii  96734
(808) 262-0328
john...@hawaii.rr.com

> On Jul 13, 2018, at 6:28 PM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Great thread. Now, one of the difficulties with modern web development is 
> that there are so many options and possibilities such that the best practices 
> approach is unclear. 
> 
> Robert
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Mar 15, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Thank you to all who responded (there have been many of you).
>> Lots of food for thought, and we’ll chew them over carefully…
>> Cheers, Keith
> 
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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech]

Great thread. Now, one of the difficulties with modern web development is that 
there are so many options and possibilities such that the best practices 
approach is unclear. 

Robert

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 15, 2018, at 2:44 PM, Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Thank you to all who responded (there have been many of you).
> Lots of food for thought, and we’ll chew them over carefully…
> Cheers, Keith

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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech]

Thank you to all who responded (there have been many of you).
Lots of food for thought, and we’ll chew them over carefully…
Cheers, Keith
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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Mitchell Shiller via 4D_Tech]

For what is is worth, I had the complete opposite experience in Quebec.
(Remember that health care is a provincial mandate, so experience varies from 
province to province.)

In the last two years, Quebec overhauled the interface for payments for 
doctors, and those  services covered by pharmacists, dentists and optometrists.

They produced working papers. Have many well attended meetings with developers 
over several years. Encouraged beta test users and took feedback and actually 
incorporated it. The produced the final specifications. Roll out was over a 15 
month period. Developers had access to a test site to test their application. 
There was also a dedicated support team, that ( I can’t believe I am writing 
this) promptly responded to questions. I am a 2 bit player in this universe but 
got to know the support team by first name.

Their new system is robust, fast, and collects meaningful billing and service 
data compared to the last system. My doctors get paid quicker and billing is 
faster and more accurately captures what they do.

4D was the ideal environment for this with its full XML and SOAP library. Got 
help from the NUG too of course. I wrote the whole module in 1 month of part 
time coding.   ( I practice medicine the rest of the time). Again thanks to 4D.

So again, I can’t believe I am saying this but our government here in Quebec 
got it right. There are dozens of competitors out there still thriving.

Jody, I am so sorry to hear about your experience. ( highlights the worst 
aspect some governments have ). I met you many years ago at a Summit and you 
gave me many useful tips and ideas.

Mitch



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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Bernd Fröhlich via 4D_Tech]

John Baughman:

> I use Xojo, http://xojo.com. I may be the only 4D developer on the planet 
> that uses Xojo.

No, you are not alone :-)

I have written an iOS app to access data that comes from our 4D server using 
the REST approach.
So there is no zoo of ever changing languages/libraries, just 4D and Xojo.

Xojo has its own learning curve of course but since I know it from the start as 
RealBasic 1.0 that was no big problem for me.

If you have to learn anything besides 4D anyway, I would recommend to have a 
good look at Xojo.

Greetings from Germany,
Bernd Fröhlich
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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Paul Dennis via 4D_Tech]

I use Grahams lightning and the Oxygen xml editor with bootstrap. V4 is now
ready for production and not a lot it cant do. Need 4d experience though but
design is separate from data.

Jody, We have never met but the Uk Gov at the EU behest did the same to me
for my buildings energy performance software. After many years in a open
competitive market with 5 suppliers the gov introduce "acreditation"
Suppliers muse be members of a scheme ie "gov quango" and architects must be
accredited cost £2k plus annual fees. The user base fell from 20K to 1k in 3
years. All the money went to the quangos. I also relocated overseas.

 Paul



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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

Tim: 

The story is long, but the steps for them are:

1. Set up an RFP that is targeted such that their cronies are the only ones 
that can deliver (ISP - Telco), thus every current vendor must partner with the 
telco.
2. Refuse to give out important interface information to various public 
services like electronic Lab Tests.
3. Refuse to respond to phone calls, e-mails, snail mail letters for technical 
information on changing specifications.
4. Pay billions to doctors to switch from you to their cronies (70% on going 
costs, full purchase price, training costs) + 10 - 50k / doctor in clinic. Thus 
no new clients.

Fight this for seven years and though our current clients were very happy to 
continue, I was exhausted fighting those battles instead of writing code and 
providing solutions. A thriving industry in Canada was essentially handed over 
to a couple of companies. 

Jody


> On Mar 14, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> On Mar 14, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jody Bevan wrote:
> 
>>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com 
>>> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> I guess that explains why you “retired” and moved to that “tropical" place. 
>>> You sold your company and got rich. Congratulations! 
>> 
>> There is a much different ending than you have given. I like your ending 
>> better than mine though. Universal Health Care gives government the license 
>> to put any number of businesses out of business (and hand it to their 
>> cronies) no matter the cost to tax payers, patients, and the workers in the 
>> system. Lets just say I saw it coming and saved for some years to get enough 
>> to live in a third world country. I handed the keys over and walked away.
> 
> 
> OMG! The Canadian government put you out of business? They forced you to 
> sell, or did they just take it away? 
> 
> They have something in America called “eminent domain” — "the right of a 
> government or its agent to expropriate private property for public use, with 
> payment of compensation.” But this is only for “public use”. But that’s 
> normally used for land and property. I’ve not heard of eminent domain being 
> used to take a business away. Did they consider “health care services” to be 
> “public use”? 
> 
> In any case this is terrible! To be stepped on by the government is the worst 
> form of abuse any business can have. And I always thought the Canadian 
> government was superior to the American government. This drastically changes 
> my opinion now. 
> 
> Tim

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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Mar 14, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jody Bevan wrote:

>> On Mar 14, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com 
>> > wrote:
>> 
>> I guess that explains why you “retired” and moved to that “tropical" place. 
>> You sold your company and got rich. Congratulations! 
> 
> There is a much different ending than you have given. I like your ending 
> better than mine though. Universal Health Care gives government the license 
> to put any number of businesses out of business (and hand it to their 
> cronies) no matter the cost to tax payers, patients, and the workers in the 
> system. Lets just say I saw it coming and saved for some years to get enough 
> to live in a third world country. I handed the keys over and walked away.


OMG! The Canadian government put you out of business? They forced you to sell, 
or did they just take it away? 

They have something in America called “eminent domain” — "the right of a 
government or its agent to expropriate private property for public use, with 
payment of compensation.” But this is only for “public use”. But that’s 
normally used for land and property. I’ve not heard of eminent domain being 
used to take a business away. Did they consider “health care services” to be 
“public use”? 

In any case this is terrible! To be stepped on by the government is the worst 
form of abuse any business can have. And I always thought the Canadian 
government was superior to the American government. This drastically changes my 
opinion now. 

Tim

*
Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com
*

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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

Tim:

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I guess that explains why you “retired” and moved to that “tropical" place. 
> You sold your company and got rich. Congratulations! 

There is a much different ending than you have given. I like your ending better 
than mine though. Universal Health Care gives government the license to put any 
number of businesses out of business (and hand it to their cronies) no matter 
the cost to tax payers, patients, and the workers in the system. Lets just say 
I saw it coming and saved for some years to get enough to live in a third world 
country. I handed the keys over and walked away.

Jody
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RE: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[David Ringsmuth via 4D_Tech]

We’ve put Wakanda in front of 4D.

On front end uses Angular, another uses many widgets and nodeJS running in 
Wakanda.

David Ringsmuth

From: Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 3:08 AM
To: 4D Tech Mailing List Technical
Cc: Keith Goebel
Subject: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

Hi all. 
We have an extensive 4D system to which we want to provide summary overviews 
and drill-downs via the web.
I have a couple of questions I'm hoping somebody will be able to answer...

Are you using 4Dv16 in a client server environment as well as providing a web 
interface to the data?
If so, we would like to know what software and plugins do you use to make the 
web environment happen?
- software and plugins for development?
- software and plugins for deployment?
- are you able to do the web development without getting the 4D programmer(s) 
involved (apart from describing the data structure)?
Thanks in advance, Keith


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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Julio Carneiro via 4D_Tech]

Keith, you may take a look at my presentation on 4D Methods, where I explain 
how I do what you’re asking for.
https://4dmethod.com/2017/12/31/january-17th-meeting-4d-web-access-and-angular2-components-julio-carneiro/#more-822
 


(sorry for the self-advertisement, but that is just one way of doing it, and 
FYI all that stuff is open source)

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 8:08 AM, Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com 
> > wrote:
> 
> Hi all. 
> We have an extensive 4D system to which we want to provide summary overviews 
> and drill-downs via the web.
> I have a couple of questions I'm hoping somebody will be able to answer...
> 
> Are you using 4Dv16 in a client server environment as well as providing a web 
> interface to the data?
> If so, we would like to know what software and plugins do you use to make the 
> web environment happen?
> - software and plugins for development?
> - software and plugins for deployment?
> - are you able to do the web development without getting the 4D programmer(s) 
> involved (apart from describing the data structure)?
> Thanks in advance, Keith
> 

--
Julio Carneiro
jjcarne...@gmail.com 





--
Julio Carneiro
jjfo...@gmail.com



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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Tim Nevels via 4D_Tech]

On Mar 14, 2018, at 12:03 PM, Jody Bevan wrote:

> This is a very timely topic for me. We put a good chunk of our medical 
> application on the Web back in 2004. Back then we used Apache up front, and 
> then just used 4D to generate the HTML. We had 4D serve the HTML through a 4D 
> Client back through Apache. It worked very well, and is still running today. 
> The company that bought our company had that approach adapted to their 
> software since for some reason they could not figure out how to do it with 
> Microsoft SQL Server product (strange!).

Hi Jody,

"The company that bought our company…” is something I didn’t know. I went to 
www.jonoke.com  and got redirected to 
https://www.qhrtechnologies.com . So Jonoke 
Software Dev is no more?

I guess that explains why you “retired” and moved to that “tropical" place. You 
sold your company and got rich. Congratulations! 

> Wakanda comes to mind too, but that can be for private discussions at the 
> Summit in April, unless someone would like to comment on that. Looking 
> forward to the Summit in April, seeing people I have not seen in years, and 
> learning again. Going back into the first world for a ‘vacation’ from the 
> farm - lucky am I.


Looking forward to seeing you too in April at 4D Summit. Also glad you are 
coming back to the “first world”. They always say retirement is not all that it 
is cracked up to be. :)

Tim

*
Tim Nevels
Innovative Solutions
785-749-3444
timnev...@mac.com
*

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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Tom DeMeo via 4D_Tech]

Hi,


I highly recommend Active4D as your server side solution, assuming you plan to 
do more than a few days worth of web work. You will almost certainly have to 
work through many of the issues that Active4D would provide solutions for, and 
you almost certainly won’t do as good a job of it. The time savings will end up 
being substantial. With Active4D, you are writing server side logic with a 
superset of 4D code which resides in external text documents, and it is a 
fairly short learning curve.

There are lots of editing solutions. I use Sublime Text. It has themes for 
Active4D syntax formatting which helps a lot.

You should think carefully about using a REST architecture. You usually don’t 
want to expose all of your business logic client side, and most of us end up 
wanting to coordinate client server logic with web logic.  I’m not sure I 
understand how anyone can do anything complicated without a 4D developer being 
involved, although you may very well benefit from separating back end and front 
end responsibilities. 

I avoid any processing tags or HTML processing server side and stick to AJAX 
for anything I need from 4D. This enforces reusability of your code.

I like Kendo UI/jQuery for the front end. You probably won't need anything 
else. Like with Active4D, working with a high quality framework saves a lot of 
time. There is a lot of stuff to solve (widgets, CSS, templating, transport 
mechanisms/AJAX calls, data binding, and on and on…) and really good frameworks 
do much of it for you in a carefully engineered way you probably couldn’t 
achieve yourself. I try to use as few tools as I can because it is so easy to 
end up having to learn at least three or four libraries for every project if 
you aren’t careful.

At least one developer with good Javascript skills is necessary for anything 
complex, and it isn’t easy to keep things organized without some experience. 
Web work is nowhere near as self organizing as a 4D app is, and it can turn 
into a tangled mess without some planning.


Best of luck,


Tom DeMeo


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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech]

Hi Keith,
My app is still on v15 but I think the principles are consistent for what
I've got to add. I'll also point out I'm much more a 4D developer than a
web developer so I tend to keep my we apps on the lean and simple side.

That said I keep the HTML out of 4D as much as possible. What's that mean?
It means 4D either responds to a request from a page for data (usually a
JSON) via API calls or populates a template via PROCESS TAGS. No building
html in 4D code. There are a lot of advantages to this approach. It means
that whatever you use to build the web pages can change without _having_ to
change 4D and the other way around. This approach also makes it easier to
build web pages that can be served via a web server or directly in a web
area.

The concern about plugins and anything else resolves itself. Use web tools
to build web pages (I like Atom these days) and use 4D to do 4D. I have
tried various IDEs but haven't found one that makes it easier for me to do
sites but I probably don't use them enough to appreciate their virtues. I
am skeptical that an IDE is useful until you have a really firm
understanding of what it's doing for you, however. So they won't really
help if you don't have any web expertise. On the other hand there is a
remarkable amount you can accomplish in a web site without numerous tools
and overly complicated frameworks.



On Wed, Mar 14, 2018 at 1:08 AM, Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Hi all.
> We have an extensive 4D system to which we want to provide summary
> overviews and drill-downs via the web.
> I have a couple of questions I'm hoping somebody will be able to answer...
>
> Are you using 4Dv16 in a client server environment as well as providing a
> web interface to the data?
> If so, we would like to know what software and plugins do you use to make
> the web environment happen?
> - software and plugins for development?
> - software and plugins for deployment?
> - are you able to do the web development without getting the 4D
> programmer(s) involved (apart from describing the data structure)?
> Thanks in advance, Keith
>
>
> **
> 4D Internet Users Group (4D iNUG)
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-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===

*We go vote - they go home*
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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Jody Bevan via 4D_Tech]

This is a very timely topic for me. We put a good chunk of our medical 
application on the Web back in 2004. Back then we used Apache up front, and 
then just used 4D to generate the HTML. We had 4D serve the HTML through a 4D 
Client back through Apache. It worked very well, and is still running today. 
The company that bought our company had that approach adapted to their software 
since for some reason they could not figure out how to do it with Microsoft SQL 
Server product (strange!).

I could go that way again, but I keep seeing all the ‘hype’ on other tools 
which I am sure that once one learns them they save a bunch of time. I am all 
about saving time, while having features. Writing a backend interface seems 
like a good way to go, then decide on the front or middle wear tools that could 
be exchanged as needed seems like a good way to go.

Wakanda comes to mind too, but that can be for private discussions at the 
Summit in April, unless someone would like to comment on that. Looking forward 
to the Summit in April, seeing people I have not seen in years, and learning 
again. Going back into the first world for a ‘vacation’ from the farm - lucky 
am I.


Jody Bevan
ARGUS Productions Inc.
Developer
Argus Productions Inc. 


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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[John Baughman via 4D_Tech]

I use Xojo, http://xojo.com. I may be the only 4D developer on the planet that 
uses Xojo. If you are interested, I am doing a 4DMethod online presentation on 
April 25, “Leveraging 4D with a Xojo Web app front end”. For more information 
go to http://4DMethod.com

I have 5 Xojo web apps deployed, all working with 4D Client/Server  
installations. 3 are working with the same 4D server.

> - software and plugins for development?

4D: No plugins. 
Xojo: MBS Xojo Utility Plugin forom monkeybreadsofware.com (lots of 
plugins available)

> - software and plugins for deployment?

Same as for development. You simply do a build in the Xojo IDE which 
creates a command line web application for deployment.

> - are you able to do the web development without getting the 4D programmer(s) 
> involved (apart from describing the data structure)?

Xojo web app development is completely independent of 4D. Someone will 
need to write the code in 4D to consume and respond to http post and get 
requests from the Xojo web app. In 4D I respond using XML or JASON formats 
which Xojo unpacks into dictionaries. Very easy on both ends. 

John


> 
> 
> **
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Kailua, Hawaii
(808) 262-0328
john...@hawaii.rr.com





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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech]

My overarching advice is start with the basics. No plug-ins, no javascript 
front end.

It’s interesting that people want you to add a javascript front-end. I’m 
working on some React stuff now, so there’s a place for it, but I’d suggest you 
wait until you need it and not start there.

1. No plug-ins to start, use native 4D. Not that other tools aren’t great, but 
if you don’t know why you’re using them, they won’t make sense. You can start 
with any text editor, like the others I like WebStorm. But that has a learning 
curve too. Visual Studio Code is cross-platform, free and is a nice balance 
between a text editor and a full blown IDE.

2. I prefer to put 4D behind Apache (others use Nginx) so that 4D only deals 
with data. Apache can be configured to deal with static content (images, style 
sheets, etc.). Especially if your site could be accessed by the world, use a 
web server in front of 4D.

3. You're displaying data. So, you’ll need to modify 4D access the data 
(queries) and send the right template/json back to the browser.


> On Mar 14, 2018, at 1:08 AM, Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi all. 
> We have an extensive 4D system to which we want to provide summary overviews 
> and drill-downs via the web.
> I have a couple of questions I'm hoping somebody will be able to answer...
> 
> Are you using 4Dv16 in a client server environment as well as providing a web 
> interface to the data?
> If so, we would like to know what software and plugins do you use to make the 
> web environment happen?
> - software and plugins for development?
> - software and plugins for deployment?
> - are you able to do the web development without getting the 4D programmer(s) 
> involved (apart from describing the data structure)?
> Thanks in advance, Keith
> 
> 
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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[npdennis via 4D_Tech]

I’m partial to React, I use 4D methods to return JSON strings (via JSON 
Stringify on a C_OBJECT)

Before choosing React, I build a proof of concept page with React and Angular 
(not AngularJS). React performed much better and was easier to learn because 
the React language is close to Javascript, where Angular is not.

React is great for building a SPA (single page application) like you would use 
building a mobile application. React will also build native iOS and Android 
applications instead of hybrid apps.

There is a little learning curve with React in that you don’t build HTML you 
build React code that assembles the HTML and displays it and keeps things up to 
date.

React’s strongest draw was the render time. When a web page changes only the 
part that changes is re-rendered. This makes it extremely fast for mobile 
development.

I also used Bootstrap… very nice if you haven’t ever tried it you should.

Neil

--
Neil Dennis
4D Developer since 1990


GreaText - Designing Software for the Way You Work
716 East 1850 N
North Ogden, UT 84414

mailto:npden...@greatext.com
http://www.greatext.com/


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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Milan Adamov via 4D_Tech]

> On Mar 14, 2018, at 09:08, Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi all. 
> We have an extensive 4D system to which we want to provide summary overviews 
> and drill-downs via the web.
> I have a couple of questions I'm hoping somebody will be able to answer...
> 
> Are you using 4Dv16 in a client server environment as well as providing a web 
> interface to the data?
> If so, we would like to know what software and plugins do you use to make the 
> web environment happen?
> - software and plugins for development?
> - software and plugins for deployment?
> - are you able to do the web development without getting the 4D programmer(s) 
> involved (apart from describing the data structure)?

I use mostly pure 4D with BBEdit, but lately I started to use Graham’s 
Lightning.

As Alex said, for the third question you will end up writing REST API anyway 
which will open possibility for someone to write native iOS and Android app as 
well as web interface in other tool than 4D.

Milan
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Re: 4D data on the web - what do you use?

[Herr Alexander Heintz via 4D_Tech]

Am 14.03.2018 um 09:08 schrieb Keith Goebel via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>:
> 
> Hi all. 
> We have an extensive 4D system to which we want to provide summary overviews 
> and drill-downs via the web.
> I have a couple of questions I'm hoping somebody will be able to answer...
> 
> Are you using 4Dv16 in a client server environment as well as providing a web 
> interface to the data?
> If so, we would like to know what software and plugins do you use to make the 
> web environment happen?

EASY

> - software and plugins for development?

Active4D and TextMate with A4D Syntax Plugin

> - software and plugins for deployment?

Active4D and TextMate with A4D Syntax Plugin

> - are you able to do the web development without getting the 4D programmer(s) 
> involved (apart from describing the data structure)?

If that is desired, Active4D requires 4D knowledge s….
Might need to write your own REST API ?

CHeers

Alex

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