On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 06:18:14PM -0400, erik quanstrom wrote:
it's also interesting to notice that long comments
are often associated with bugs.
Literate programming is a magnifying glass. It's very easy to use,
but it's not straightforward to use right. My first attempts with
a creative
Having seen that video, as well as other examples,
I am now more drawn to APL.
Any Plan 9 implementations available?
ak
i don't believe so. i've made a number of false starts and would like
to return to it some day. there's some very simple interpreters out
there (including one by ken[1] for old unix systems) that might be
worth looking at if you want to work on a port and performance isn't
critical. note that i
there has also been a lot of discussion in the past 1-2 months about
K, a successor to APL, in #plan9. you might ask there; i may have
missed a more recent development.
could someone please explain to the ignorant, what
is interesting about apl? the last surge of interest i
recall in the
On Fri, 10 Jul 2009 13:52:35 +0100
Robert Raschke rtrli...@googlemail.com wrote:
On Fri, Jul 10, 2009 at 1:14 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote:
there has also been a lot of discussion in the past 1-2 months about
K, a successor to APL, in #plan9. you might ask there; i may
The J dialect of APL (http://www.jsoftware.com, essentially the
continuation of Ken Iverson's development efforts after APL) is a great tool
for thinking about generalised operations on vectors, matrices, cubes, etc.
There's a Plan 9 port of J 3.02 in /n/sources/contrib/miller/j/8.j
386
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:10 PM, erik quanstromquans...@quanstro.net wrote:
I expect to see code immediately, by the way, finished or not, and you
better be
around to answer my questions.
You have something here: these are central software-development tenets
of agile/scrum/xp/lean/kanban
Indeed, Voltaire had it right. Better is the enemy... (of my enemy is my
friend??)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:10 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote:
I expect to see code immediately, by the way, finished or not, and you
better be
around to answer my questions.
You have
Why would it take a book? DMR made the point succinctly in his
critique of Knuth's literate program, showing how a few command-line
utilities do the work of the Don's elaborately constructed tries.
because, evidently, one book was not enough.
- erik
Why would it take a book? DMR made the point succinctly in his
critique of Knuth's literate program, showing how a few command-line
utilities do the work of the Don's elaborately constructed tries.
Do you have a URL for this?
Micah
2009/7/9 Micah Stetson mi...@stetsonnet.org:
Why would it take a book? DMR made the point succinctly in his
critique of Knuth's literate program, showing how a few command-line
utilities do the work of the Don's elaborately constructed tries.
Do you have a URL for this?
I looked this up
i think one could write quite an interesting
book critiquing modern software development for failing to
stop at good enough.
Why would it take a book? DMR [sic] made the point succinctly in his
critique of Knuth's literate program, showing how a few command-line
utilities do the work of
On Thu, Jul 09, 2009 at 02:47:37PM -0500, Jason Catena wrote:
Yes, sorry I didn't look it up earlier.
Bentley, J., Knuth, D., and McIlroy, D. 1986. Programming pearls: a
literate program. Commun. ACM 29, 6 (Jun. 1986), 471-483. DOI=
http://doi.acm.org/10.1145/5948.315654
[The article is
But this does not mean that _in general_, literate programming has not
its strength especially for complex and weaven program... or even for
writing the tools, the bricks one combines in a pipeline like McIlroy does.
I'll say amen, especially for a system of many little parts. My point
wasn't
For the task to be done print the k most common words in a file, the
Unix approach and the Unix tools give everything to create a program
far more rapidly than the from scratch approach adopted by D. Knuth. But
because the tools exist (are already written... but in what language?
Easily
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 1:34 PM, erik quanstromquans...@quanstro.net wrote:
the problem i have with literate programming is that it
tends to treat code like a terse and difficult-to-understand
footnote.
And thus, we have literate programming meets APL. ;)
-Jack
structure, on extremely clever constructions (on the BWK gibe that I
won't be smart enough to debug it later), and to describe how the code
segment interacts with others and maps to the problem domain.
it's also interesting to notice that long comments
are often associated with bugs.
- erik
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 16:34, erik quanstromquans...@quanstro.net wrote:
For the task to be done print the k most common words in a file, the
Unix approach and the Unix tools give everything to create a program
far more rapidly than the from scratch approach adopted by D. Knuth. But
because
On Thu, 09 Jul 2009 13:44:20 -0800 Jack Johnson knapj...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 1:34 PM, erik quanstromquans...@quanstro.net wrote:
the problem i have with literate programming is that it
tends to treat code like a terse and difficult-to-understand
footnote.
And thus,
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
'nuff said. :-)
Arnold
On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 10:48:58AM +0300, Aharon Robbins wrote:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
'nuff said. :-)
Is it my english that is not sufficient ? [Note: it is written Google
Chrome while I think it should be Google Chrome OS]
The software
So why all is always Linux
based ?
Because linux has an army of volunteers hacking up drivers for
everybody's weird undocumented ever-changing hardware.
The software architecture is simple - Google Chrome running within a
new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel.
It says linux kernel
2009/7/8 Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com:
So why all is always Linux
based ?
Because linux has an army of volunteers hacking up drivers for
everybody's weird undocumented ever-changing hardware.
The software architecture is simple - Google Chrome running within a
new windowing system on
But if it is just for a terminal, there is a lot of drivers you don't
need. (Well, the video card is generally not the easier to correctly
drive...)
Exactly. And wi-fi. And ethernet if it's a cheap broadcom chip.
And sound if it's not usb. And bluetooth so you can use your phone
as a modem.
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:02 AM, Richard Miller9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote:
The software architecture is simple - Google Chrome running within a
new windowing system on top of a Linux kernel.
It says linux kernel with no mention of multi-gigabyes of linux
libraries and commands. The optimistic
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Richard Miller9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote:
But if it is just for a terminal, there is a lot of drivers you don't
need. (Well, the video card is generally not the easier to correctly
drive...)
Exactly. And wi-fi. And ethernet if it's a cheap broadcom chip.
And
You can be sure we wont be so lucky. A huge amount of gnu/gnome guck is
assured.
Your evidence? a new windowing system doesn't sound like gnome to me.
My evidence is familiarity with the garbage chrome depends on, you can
expect Cairo, gtk/glib, dbus and the rest of the freedesktop.org
'standard' crap pile at the very least.
And they will need to do flash somehow, so I would not be surprised if
'window system' in this context simply means
2009/7/8 Uriel urie...@gmail.com:
My evidence is familiarity with the garbage chrome depends on, you can
expect Cairo, gtk/glib, dbus and the rest of the freedesktop.org
'standard' crap pile at the very least.
And they will need to do flash somehow, so I would not be surprised if
'window
It says linux kernel with no mention of multi-gigabyes of linux
libraries and commands. The optimistic interpretation is that they've
rediscovered Ron's idea of borrowing a linux kernel as a minimal (sic)
device driver layer to put a sensible OS on top of, and throwing
everything else away.
But if it is just for a terminal, there is a lot of drivers you don't
need. (Well, the video card is generally not the easier to correctly
drive...)
Exactly. And wi-fi. And ethernet if it's a cheap broadcom chip.
And sound if it's not usb. And bluetooth so you can use your phone
as a
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 2:02 AM, Richard Miller 9f...@hamnavoe.com wrote:
So why all is always Linux
based ?
Because linux has an army of volunteers hacking up drivers for
everybody's weird undocumented ever-changing hardware.
The software architecture is simple - Google Chrome running
On 07/08/2009 02:37 PM, Richard Miller wrote:
So why all is always Linux
based ?
Because linux has an army of volunteers hacking up drivers for
everybody's weird undocumented ever-changing hardware.
The software architecture is simple - Google Chrome running within a
new windowing system
On 07/08/2009 02:21 PM, tlaro...@polynum.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 08, 2009 at 10:48:58AM +0300, Aharon Robbins wrote:
http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2009/07/introducing-google-chrome-os.html
'nuff said. :-)
Is it my english that is not sufficient ? [Note: it is written Google
Chrome while I
you say
I think, Google did not choose Plan 9 due lack of device drivers, poor
IPv6 support and confusing redundant fragment of code lurking around in
/sys/boot or 9load, but a compared with Linux a compact, clean and
much more efficient FreeBSD could definitely have been a better choice.
2009/7/8 erik quanstrom quans...@coraid.com:
you say
I think, Google did not choose Plan 9 due lack of device drivers, poor
IPv6 support and confusing redundant fragment of code lurking around in
/sys/boot or 9load, but a compared with Linux a compact, clean and
much more efficient FreeBSD
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:27 PM, erik quanstromquans...@coraid.com wrote:
you say
I think, Google did not choose Plan 9 due lack of device drivers, poor
IPv6 support and confusing redundant fragment of code lurking around in
/sys/boot or 9load, but a compared with Linux a compact, clean and
But don't underestimate the value of the interesting ideas in the
linux kernel that get the performance, e.g. RCU. I don't think there
are any OSes that have scaled to 4096 CPUs at this point besides
Linux.
i thought that massively parallel harvard-arch machines had
generally fallen out of
I'd love to do this, but I don't think anybody's going to
match my salary to port drivers, do ACPI, add amd64 support for
workstations, etc.
i told myself this for years. it turns out to be a mistaken
idea. now that i know, i regret the years i spent doing
other things.
- erik
2009/7/8 erik quanstrom quans...@coraid.com:
But don't underestimate the value of the interesting ideas in the
linux kernel that get the performance, e.g. RCU. I don't think there
are any OSes that have scaled to 4096 CPUs at this point besides
Linux.
i thought that massively parallel
2009/7/8 erik quanstrom quans...@coraid.com:
I'd love to do this, but I don't think anybody's going to
match my salary to port drivers, do ACPI, add amd64 support for
workstations, etc.
i told myself this for years. it turns out to be a mistaken
idea. now that i know, i regret the years i
2009/7/8 erik quanstrom quans...@coraid.com:
I'd love to do this, but I don't think anybody's going to
match my salary to port drivers, do ACPI, add amd64 support for
workstations, etc.
i told myself this for years. it turns out to be a mistaken
idea. now that i know, i regret the
2009/7/8 Uriel urie...@gmail.com:
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think so. We already have IPv6 support and it's not that bad.
Having more drivers and supported commodity architectures would be a
good thing. I'd love to do this, but I don't
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/8 Uriel urie...@gmail.com:
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't think so. We already have IPv6 support and it's not that bad.
Having more drivers and supported
2009/7/8 Uriel urie...@gmail.com:
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
ACPI support doesn't need to suspend or do thermal zones. It just
needs to be able to read the ADT and get MP / interrupt routing table
information. This is doable. Have you ever read
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:30 PM, erik quanstromquans...@coraid.com wrote:
But don't underestimate the value of the interesting ideas in the
linux kernel that get the performance, e.g. RCU. I don't think there
are any OSes that have scaled to 4096 CPUs at this point besides
Linux.
i thought
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 12:50 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
As for amd64, it is already done, we are just not worthy to have access to it.
Ah! I knew there was a reason!
ron
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/8 Uriel urie...@gmail.com:
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
ACPI support doesn't need to suspend or do thermal zones. It just
needs to be able to read the ADT and get
Without this getting into a holy war, what Geoff told me was that the
amd64 work was for headless CPU servers, which is only mildly useful
to me anyway.
If it was released perhaps somebody would add the missing drivers, who knows...
As things stand, we will never know.
Speaking of the amd64
2009/7/8 Benjamin Huntsman bhunts...@mail2.cu-portland.edu:
Without this getting into a holy war, what Geoff told me was that the
amd64 work was for headless CPU servers, which is only mildly useful
to me anyway.
If it was released perhaps somebody would add the missing drivers, who
knows...
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Urielurie...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com wrote:
2009/7/8 Uriel urie...@gmail.com:
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Devon H. O'Delldevon.od...@gmail.com
wrote:
I don't think so. We already have IPv6
Before my signature, I'd really like to reiterate that I did not bring
up amd64 to open a can of worms.
-dho
I just thought I'd ask the question since it came up, as I've been wondering
also.
However, I don't think it needs to be a can of worms if we as a community
don't make it into one.
ACPI will never, ever, ever happen, so people better get over it (and
if anyone is naive enough to waste their time trying, it will end up
as a useless atrocious mess that wont boot even in a 100th of the
systems out there, much less suspend or do anything useful).
I've been wasting time
2009/7/8 Francisco J Ballesteros n...@lsub.org:
ACPI will never, ever, ever happen, so people better get over it (and
if anyone is naive enough to waste their time trying, it will end up
as a useless atrocious mess that wont boot even in a 100th of the
systems out there, much less suspend or
Another person in Plan 9 has been working on an AML interpreter that
presents the ADT in a filesystem (at least, that was what I envisioned
and explained to him). I believe he has also contacted you regarding
some USB ethernet device, so perhaps you two will want to work
together to some
I expect to see code immediately, by the way, finished or not, and you better
be
around to answer my questions.
You have something here: these are central software-development tenets
of agile/scrum/xp/lean/kanban du jour, and help the open-source
community work. Essentially, done is an
I expect to see code immediately, by the way, finished or not, and you
better be
around to answer my questions.
You have something here: these are central software-development tenets
of agile/scrum/xp/lean/kanban du jour, and help the open-source
community work. Essentially, done is
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 23:10, erik quanstromquans...@quanstro.net wrote:
I expect to see code immediately, by the way, finished or not, and you
better be
around to answer my questions.
You have something here: these are central software-development tenets
of agile/scrum/xp/lean/kanban du
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