Re: [9fans] photos of iwp9
dammit - they'll let anyone go to these things. him and his drunken tigers. brucee On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:14 AM, Roman Shaposhnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 6, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Kernel Panic wrote: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/photos/iwp9.2008/dscn0213.jpg This one is truly awesome! Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] photos of iwp9
Roman Shaposhnik wrote: On Nov 6, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Kernel Panic wrote: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/photos/iwp9.2008/dscn0213.jpg This one is truly awesome! yeah :-) Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] photos of iwp9
For those not in the know Tiger is participating in a token ring experiment. I think cinap has him at the moment. Daddy expects him back next IWP9. Coming to a 9fan near you. brucee On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:04 AM, Kernel Panic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Roman Shaposhnik wrote: On Nov 6, 2008, at 3:01 AM, Kernel Panic wrote: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/photos/iwp9.2008/dscn0213.jpg This one is truly awesome! yeah :-) Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Quick question on stopping a process that waits for IO
Did I miss something obvious? And this would be a million dollar question here. I don't think you did (although Eric (sic) constantly warns us of dragons), but on the other hand I have very little experience with the kernel itself. I hope somebody comments on the fencing that is or isn't needed here. Since we have parts of the kernel peeking witout locks at -procctl, I worry about races, and wonder how, or if, the current design avoids them. memory fencing only forces the instruction stream to be read, write or r/w coherent with the local processor. it is of no help at all for concurrent access. supposing there is a problem, memory fencing will not help. you would need an ilock. i didn't spend enough time looking at pc/trap.c to convince myself one way or the other, but the main access (other than syscall tracing) seemed to be a read of the variable to transition to stopped state. this race is likely benign. you'll just go around again and catch it later. notes are hard. and the problem they're intended to solve is how to interrupt a single-threaded process. if you're writing something new and you think you might want to extend notes, i think you would be much happier using the thread library and living in user space. in local store -- that drove the design of the Coyotos kernel to being a strictly transactional system. AFAIR there it is always possible to tell a it's easy to have a design where you let the dragons play and you need to bring out some serious weaponry to deal with your problems. (and it is possible to get carried away looking for concurrency problems.) a good design like plan 9 keeps the dragons locked up, mostly. - erik
Re: [9fans] Programming tutorial draft
On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Bruce Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to see a you tube video of the troff. Dude, don't tempt me. When (if?) I (ever?) get off of active duty, I might do a youtube video on troff. I know that's not quite what you were saying, but it'd be hilarious. - Dan C. (ps- Bruce, let me know when you'll be stateside again.)
Re: [9fans] Quick question on stopping a process that waits for IO
The target process is *already* waiting for the IO stuck inside the kernel. It is not on a runqueue, not it is considered to be places there. since procwrite doesn't acquire anything other than the debug lock, how do you know? the proc could start up again before you notice. How? If there's a stop message already written to /proc/n/ctl. Once that is done, the process is guaranteed to be in 2 states and those states only: continue waiting for the I/O, being actually Stopped. Both of the don't let the scheduler take it to the runqueue. here's the senerio, i think (works fine on a single processor) a b acquire debug lock sleep complete io sched run a bit syscall wakeup - erik
[9fans] Is /proc an Plan9 invention ?
Hi folks, the english wikipedia page on Plan9 implies that procfs was an Plan9 invention. Is this true ? cu -- -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/ cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] skype: nekrad666 -- Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme --
Re: [9fans] Is /proc an Plan9 invention ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procfs: UNIX 8th Edition Tom J. Killian http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tom_J._Killianaction=editredlink=1 implemented the UNIX 8th Edition http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Version_8_Unix version of |/proc|: he presented a paper titled Processes as Files at USENIX http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USENIX in June 1984. The design of procfs aimed to replace the /ptrace http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ptraceaction=editredlink=1/ system call used for process tracing. Enrico Weigelt escribió: Hi folks, the english wikipedia page on Plan9 implies that procfs was an Plan9 invention. Is this true ? cu
Re: [9fans] Quick question on stopping a process that waits for IO
erik quanstrom wrote: How? If there's a stop message already written to /proc/n/ctl. Once that is done, the process is guaranteed to be in 2 states and those states only: continue waiting for the I/O, being actually Stopped. Both of the don't let the scheduler take it to the runqueue. here's the senerio, i think (works fine on a single processor) a b acquire debug lock sleep complete io sched run a bit syscall wakeup But how run a bit could possibly happen if after the stop message being sent right after the complete io the b process goes into a Stopped state? Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Is /proc an Plan9 invention ?
I'm pretty sure Peter Weinberger (pjw) did the very first, which Killian adapted and improved when pjw lost interest. The big change in Plan 9 was moving to a true file system hierarchy instead of just one file and a pile of ioctls. Linux's /proc is very close in overall design. -rob
Re: [9fans] Programming tutorial draft
On Nov 7, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Dan Cross wrote: On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Bruce Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to see a you tube video of the troff. Dude, don't tempt me. When (if?) I (ever?) get off of active duty, I might do a youtube video on troff. I know that's not quite what you were saying, but it'd be hilarious. - Dan C. (ps- Bruce, let me know when you'll be stateside again.) If I made it, it wouldn't be on youtube (I don't want to give up my rights to the video). But I would definitely give it to you, the groff guys, and the Heirloom guys. How is this to start: This video will teach you troff. What is troff? troff is a document preparation system, much like TeX or Microsoft Word. troff is one of the first of these systems to support fonts in italic and drawing on the page. It was developed by the late Joe Ossanna and is the latest and newest in a long line of document programs. troff is most like TeX in that the document is a text file containing words with formatting commands mixed in. This means you'll have to get used to the command line. Three primary versions of troff are used today. The official version, based of Ossanna's work, is in the Plan 9 from Bell Labs operating system. The most common one is groff, a version made for the GNU project. There is also Heirloom troff, based off the ones by OpenSolaris. All three are free software. So as you can see, troff is a Unix tool. But if you are on Windows, don't despair: there are ports of these tools to Windows. I will be running Plan 9 for my demo. Let's start by creating a simple document. Create a new text file: first_troff and edit it: acme first_troff Now let's type a few words: hello, world Save your work. In my case, I middle-click the Put at the top. Now comes the fun part. In Plan 9, to preview the document, you say troff first_troff | proof or troff first_troff | page I will use page. With GNU, you convert to a PostScript file and open it with an image viewer: troff first_troff | grops first_troff.ps (Heirloom goes here.) PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part
[9fans] Cannot boot from:
I am using a Dell Latitude CPx laptop, trying to install Plan 9. I successfully get to the boot from: line, but anything I put into the entry gives back no feedback. I have tried sdC0!cdboot!9pcflop.gz , sdC1!cdboot!9pcflop.gz , sdD0!9pcflop.gz , and sdD1!9pcflop.gz with no luck. Some of the lspci from Linux is posted here: 00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX Host bridge (rev 03) 00:01.0 PC bridge: Intel Corporation 440BX/ZX/DX - 82443BX/ZX/DX AGP bridge (rev 03) 00:03.0 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1225 (rev 01) 00:03.1 CardBus bridge: Texas Instruments PCI1225 (rev 01) 00:07.0 Bridge: Intel Corporation 82371AB/EB/MB PIIX4 ISA (rev 02) 00:07.1 IDE interface: Intel Corporation 82371AB/EB/MB PIIX4 IDE (rev 01) I can post the rest if needed (I have to type it by hand..) and any other general Linux commands output as well. I would very much like to get Plan 9 working on this laptop.
Re: [9fans] Programming tutorial draft
On Nov 7, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Dan Cross wrote: On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Bruce Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to see a you tube video of the troff. Dude, don't tempt me. When (if?) I (ever?) get off of active duty, I might do a youtube video on troff. I know that's not quite what you were saying, but it'd be hilarious. - Dan C. (ps- Bruce, let me know when you'll be stateside again.) If I made it, it wouldn't be on youtube (I don't want to give up my rights to the video). But I would definitely give it to you, the groff guys, and the Heirloom guys. How is this to start: This video will teach you troff. What is troff? troff is a document preparation system, much like TeX or Microsoft Word. troff is one of the first of these systems to support fonts in italic and drawing on the page. It was developed by the late Joe Ossanna and is the latest and newest in a long line of document programs. troff is most like TeX in that the document is a text file containing words with formatting commands mixed in. This means you'll have to get used to the command line. Three primary versions of troff are used today. The official version, based of Ossanna's work, is in the Plan 9 from Bell Labs operating system. The most common one is groff, a version made for the GNU project. There is also Heirloom troff, based off the ones by OpenSolaris. All three are free software. So as you can see, troff is a Unix tool. But if you are on Windows, don't despair: there are ports of these tools to Windows. I will be running Plan 9 for my demo. Let's start by creating a simple document. Create a new text file: first_troff and edit it: acme first_troff Now let's type a few words: hello, world Save your work. In my case, I middle-click the Put at the top. Now comes the fun part. In Plan 9, to preview the document, you say troff first_troff | proof or troff first_troff | page I will use page. With GNU, you convert to a PostScript file and open it with an image viewer: troff first_troff | grops first_troff.ps (Heirloom goes here.) A video seems like a rather foolish place to try and explain troff, since the whole process is a lot of text input and a couple commands. There exist plenty of documents on writing troff AND they avoid the cutesy Ok now let's do this... here's what I did... Now the fun part form. John
[9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
Guys, do we have something like this: http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/FileSystems for 9P? At this point I don't even care what OS these servers run under I just need the most comprehensive list of every possible kind of a resource that can be shared/served using 9P. Thanks, Roman. P.S. The list of things that can be accessed using FUSE is *really* impressive. I have no clue how good any of them are, but in a management-type of a conversation I would really like to be in a position to defend 9P as a protocol of choice for some things that we do. Although it looks like FUSE has become Linux of resource sharing/access protocols? :-(
Re: [9fans] Programming tutorial draft
No! I don't want a video tute on troff. Just a video of you typing in the troff. It would certainly be better to look at then your idea of how plan9 works. brucee On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 11:17 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Nov 7, 2008, at 11:09 AM, Dan Cross wrote: On Wed, Nov 5, 2008 at 3:03 AM, Bruce Ellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd like to see a you tube video of the troff. Dude, don't tempt me. When (if?) I (ever?) get off of active duty, I might do a youtube video on troff. I know that's not quite what you were saying, but it'd be hilarious. - Dan C. (ps- Bruce, let me know when you'll be stateside again.) If I made it, it wouldn't be on youtube (I don't want to give up my rights to the video). But I would definitely give it to you, the groff guys, and the Heirloom guys. How is this to start: This video will teach you troff. What is troff? troff is a document preparation system, much like TeX or Microsoft Word. troff is one of the first of these systems to support fonts in italic and drawing on the page. It was developed by the late Joe Ossanna and is the latest and newest in a long line of document programs. troff is most like TeX in that the document is a text file containing words with formatting commands mixed in. This means you'll have to get used to the command line. Three primary versions of troff are used today. The official version, based of Ossanna's work, is in the Plan 9 from Bell Labs operating system. The most common one is groff, a version made for the GNU project. There is also Heirloom troff, based off the ones by OpenSolaris. All three are free software. So as you can see, troff is a Unix tool. But if you are on Windows, don't despair: there are ports of these tools to Windows. I will be running Plan 9 for my demo. Let's start by creating a simple document. Create a new text file: first_troff and edit it: acme first_troff Now let's type a few words: hello, world Save your work. In my case, I middle-click the Put at the top. Now comes the fun part. In Plan 9, to preview the document, you say troff first_troff | proof or troff first_troff | page I will use page. With GNU, you convert to a PostScript file and open it with an image viewer: troff first_troff | grops first_troff.ps (Heirloom goes here.) A video seems like a rather foolish place to try and explain troff, since the whole process is a lot of text input and a couple commands. There exist plenty of documents on writing troff AND they avoid the cutesy Ok now let's do this... here's what I did... Now the fun part form. John
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
mostly section 4 of the manual, i'd have said, although there are a few in section 8 where the file service is incidental to the service (eg, cs and dns)
[9fans] Invisible cursor
Hello, I tried to use my IBM ThinkCentre S50 as a Plan 9 terminal, but I discovered a really strange problem. When I boot my terminal using PXE, rio is running fine, but the cursor does not appear. The mouse is useable, but with an invisible cursor and I cannot type anything with the keyboard. This problem does not appear before launching aux/vga. When I launch aux/vga manually, I cannot type anything after. I don't have this problem if I boot locally on this terminal, using the Plan 9 cdrom. And I don't have this problem on my other terminals booting PXE on the same cpuserver, like my IBM PC300PL. I tried things like echo -n hwaccel off '#'v/mousectl, but it does not seem to change anything. How can I solve this problem? Thank you. -- David du Colombier
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
FUSE won. It's easy, it works, and it has cross-platform support (macos/linux). 9p is not going to replace fuse now, if ever, on these systems. That's not to say that 9p goes away. But it's not worth worrying about whether FUSE will have more users -- it already has and it probably always will. That said, what's the resource sharing protocol for fuse? None of those file systems has a common wire protocol AFAICT. Those servers are hooks from kernel to user to something. FUSE is not for resource sharing, is it? It's for making it easy to write file systems for Linux users. ron
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
of course, that's just the protocol, and to show the larger idea of the representation of things by name spaces (instead of ioctls and special system calls) would have to include section 3 (devices). it's fairly pervasive.---BeginMessage--- mostly section 4 of the manual, i'd have said, although there are a few in section 8 where the file service is incidental to the service (eg, cs and dns)---End Message---
Re: [9fans] Invisible cursor
On Fri, Nov 07, 2008 at 11:22:49PM +0100, David du Colombier wrote: Hello, I tried to use my IBM ThinkCentre S50 as a Plan 9 terminal, but I discovered a really strange problem. When I boot my terminal using PXE, rio is running fine, but the cursor does not appear. The mouse is useable, but with an invisible cursor and I cannot type anything with the keyboard. This problem does not appear before launching aux/vga. When I launch aux/vga manually, I cannot type anything after. I don't have this problem if I boot locally on this terminal, using the Plan 9 cdrom. And I don't have this problem on my other terminals booting PXE on the same cpuserver, like my IBM PC300PL. I tried things like echo -n hwaccel off '#'v/mousectl, but it does not seem to change anything. How can I solve this problem? We've had the same problem here when turning on Hyperthreading... iirc, David Eckhardt has posted here about this a few years ago; I don't remember if there was fix in that thread or not. -- vs
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
and what's at the end of a fuse? exactly. i was reminded of that the other night as i was lighting the blue touch paper before standing WELL BACK
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
That said, what's the resource sharing protocol for fuse? None of those file systems has a common wire protocol AFAICT. Those servers are hooks from kernel to user to something. FUSE is not for resource sharing, is it? It's for making it easy to write file systems for Linux users. the new rangboom agents include 9pfuse (brucee's work based on russ' p9p code) and run on linux and mac os x. i was hoping to release them by the end of oct (in time for iwp9). filesystems imported from plan9 are mounted as fuse fs. fuse has a lot of quirks and doesn't inspire confidence.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Skip Tavakkolian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: fuse has a lot of quirks and doesn't inspire confidence. Which hasn't stopped most of the software I am abused by -- er, use -- from achieving world dominance :-) ron
Re: [9fans] Invisible cursor
We've had the same problem here when turning on Hyperthreading... iirc, David Eckhardt has posted here about this a few years ago; I don't remember if there was fix in that thread or not. I found David Eckhardt's post on 9fans archive [1]. It was helpful. I firstly tried to disable HyperThreading support in the BIOS, but it did not work. Then I tried to put *nomp=1 in the plan9.ini of my terminal and it works. The cursor now appears on the screen and the keyboard is working. However, the mouse cursor leave some little garbage on the screen when clicking on the screen. Thank you for your help. [1] http://9fans.net/archive/2007/08/288 -- David du Colombier
Re: [9fans] Invisible cursor
However, the mouse cursor leave some little garbage on the screen when clicking on the screen. In fact, I just forgot to re-enable hwaccel. It works perfectly now. -- David du Colombier
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 22:38 +, C H Forsyth wrote: of course, that's just the protocol, and to show the larger idea of the representation of things by name spaces (instead of ioctls and special system calls) would have to include section 3 (devices). it's fairly pervasive. Sure. But that would an argument in favor of the Plan 9/Inferno kernel architecture, not the protocol itself. Nobody's denying that 9P is a perfect match to that kind of kernel architecture. What I'm trying to find out is whether the protocol could stand its own ground even if Plan9 kernel is not serving nor muxing it. I have always used an argument of simplicity and ease of implementation. In fact, from that point of view, 9P is better than FUSE: http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/LanguageBindings vs http://9p.cat-v.org/implementations That's the good news, the bad news is that the Network effect seems to be really working in favor of FUSE: the amount of *already* implemented fileservers is nothing short of amazing. Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] mmap and shared libraries
I know one thing: every major operating system I have ever heard of leverages shared libraries. Can all those people be wrong? I don't think so. Eight billion Windows users can't be wrong. (Can they?)
Re: [9fans] yes, comcast really *does* suck
you have to love comcast. They just blocked my port 25 incoming. A quick search around the net reveals they are jerking people around regularly on this issue. And people claim UUCP is obsolete.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Fri, 2008-11-07 at 14:31 -0800, ron minnich wrote: FUSE won. It's easy, it works, and it has cross-platform support (macos/linux). It certainly looks that way. It also certainly looks like I have to study it. Do you guys have any good pointers and/or wisdom in that department? I'd be happy to take answers off the list, btw. 9p is not going to replace fuse now, if ever, on these systems. That's not to say that 9p goes away. But it's not worth worrying about whether FUSE will have more users -- it already has and it probably always will. Fair enough. But that begs the next question: realistically speaking, what is the right area for 9P to be used these days? Where would it be the perfect fit in cases where Plan9/Inferno are not there to leverage it? That said, what's the resource sharing protocol for fuse? Are you talking about this: http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/FuseProtocolSketch It is riddled with POSIX inspired quirks as far as I can tell but given enough thrust this particular pig surely can be made airborne. Or so it appears after an hour or so of cursory read ;-) None of those file systems has a common wire protocol AFAICT. Those servers are hooks from kernel to user to something. FUSE is not for resource sharing, is it? It's for making it easy to write file systems for Linux users. That depends on the point of view: very few things talk 9P natively, most of the resource sharing is done via a hoge-podge of protocols that, unfortunately, already exist. I wish I had control over the server *and* the client in which case 9P would be a perfect fit. But I don't. I have to hook up with what's already there. And FUSE, as I realize now, seems to fit the bill quite nicely. It is available on quite a few OSes and the list of resource sharing protocols for which adapters are already available seems to be quite large. Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Fri, Nov 7, 2008 at 7:43 PM, Roman V. Shaposhnik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you talking about this: http://fuse.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/FuseProtocolSketch That's just kernel to user on same machine. What goes over the wire? And FUSE, as I realize now, seems to fit the bill quite nicely. It is available on quite a few OSes and the list of resource sharing protocols for which adapters are already available seems to be quite large. And little lacks in 9p like symlnks, xatrr, etc. are a killer. ron
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
On Nov 7, 2008, at 7:56 PM, ron minnich wrote: And FUSE, as I realize now, seems to fit the bill quite nicely. It is available on quite a few OSes and the list of resource sharing protocols for which adapters are already available seems to be quite large. And little lacks in 9p like symlnks, xatrr, etc. are a killer. Not really no. At least not for the kind of things I care about at the moment. Like enabling mounts to the source code repositories and such. Thanks, Roman.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
Indeed. Fortunately Russ' code was very clean, but if you turn on tracing you get quite a surprise. Here we are concerned about optimizing 9p. The amount of fuse traffic for simple operations is astounding. You stop wondering why? and just try and cope. I'm not dumping on fuse - it does fill a gap - rather I just don't wish to look at its implementation. brucee On Sat, Nov 8, 2008 at 1:45 AM, Skip Tavakkolian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That said, what's the resource sharing protocol for fuse? None of those file systems has a common wire protocol AFAICT. Those servers are hooks from kernel to user to something. FUSE is not for resource sharing, is it? It's for making it easy to write file systems for Linux users. the new rangboom agents include 9pfuse (brucee's work based on russ' p9p code) and run on linux and mac os x. i was hoping to release them by the end of oct (in time for iwp9). filesystems imported from plan9 are mounted as fuse fs. fuse has a lot of quirks and doesn't inspire confidence.
Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?
The amount of fuse traffic for simple operations is astounding. You stop wondering why? and just try and cope. I'm not dumping on fuse - it does fill a gap - rather I just don't wish to look at its implementation. This sound so much like the argument about shared libraries ...
