Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: |I don't know what console is. I don't see anything at my Plan-9 Shell |(RC) or on the screen in general. Note that Francisco J. Ballesteros has written an excellent book on operating systems [1] that i also should read in total: «Introduction to Operating Systems Abstractions. Using Plan 9 from Bell Labs. http://lsub.org/who/nemo/ http://lsub.org/who/nemo/papers.html [1] http://lsub.org/who/nemo/9.intro.pdf --steffen ---BeginMessage--- On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 6:03 PM, cinap_len...@felloff.net wrote: thats strange. when you plug in the drive, the nusbrc script started the usb disk filesystem and run that fdisk command to register the partitions. for some reason, the partitions step failed. but when you run it manually later it wored. I don't get the last two words it worked (I presume). After I execute your command, I still don't see it under /shr/sdU* the drive might be sensitive to the timing? can you pull and replug the drive and see if there are any error messages on the console? I don't know what console is. I don't see anything at my Plan-9 Shell (RC) or on the screen in general. as a work arround for now, you can try doing this manually: diskparts /dev/sdU6.0 dossrv mount -c /srv/dos /n/usb /dev/sdU6.0/dos cd /n/usb Worked. Thanks! the dos filesystem does not do write buffering so there is no need to flush. (see dossrv(4)) mounts are local to the namespace. you can remove something from the namespace with the unmount command (see bind(1)) or you just close the whole namespace (close the rio window). for documentation on formating and partitioning disks see prep(8). -- cinap ---End Message---
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
I gather that command is for fossil, and fossil isn't used anymore. Fossil is still the standard disk file system for Plan 9. Trying to use 9front by following Plan 9 documentation, or vice versa, is likely to lead to much frustration.
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: |both 9␦Front and 9␦Atom use U+180E, Mongolian Vowel Separator, to |stand between the digit and the letters. it is a zero-length space |signifying the major departure from the original canon. No, no longer -- it has become a control character in Unicode 6.3.0. --steffen ---BeginMessage--- While you're at it; is it 9-Front (as Andrey said above) and 9-Atom? So, space with Plan 9 and dash with the other two? both 9Front and 9Atom use U+180E, Mongolian Vowel Separator, to stand between the digit and the letters. it is a zero-length space signifying the major departure from the original canon. ---End Message---
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
It's not super required to add a new user on standalone systems. Obviously file/auth servers have more of a need. You're system isn't less secure using Glenda. You're going to be host owner no matter what user you use. ah, but being hostowner gives you no special status on the file server. this is a key difference with unix root. so even on a single-user machine, one may wish to run as a user with fewer permissions. - erik
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
As it says in the first paragraph, it is: display device for system administration messages, particularly those from the BIOS or boot loader in plan 9, typically the directly-attached kvm, serial or cec is considered the console. exception: when you're running rio, you don't see the console. perhaps you're running rio, so this exception is confusing. - erik
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
On 12/23/2013 04:59 PM, Blake McBride wrote: BTW, how do I abort a command such as the cat /dev/kpeint? I tried ^c, ^d. ^\. Nothing worked. I ended up having to delete the entire window. Try the Delete key.
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
The DEL key should do. Am 23.12.2013 15:59, schrieb Blake McBride: On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 10:52 PM, cinap_len...@felloff.net mailto:cinap_len...@felloff.net wrote: the fdisk command i gave you could read the partition table fine. (it didnt register them, just print) the code thats handling the automounting (/shr) should'v discovered the partitions by running the same command but apparently that didnt work. (otherwise, the dos partition should'v shown up in /dev/sdU*) i can not reproduce this on my systems and i need further information to debug this issue. i would like you to: pulling and replugging the usb device and watch the screen to see if there are messages showing up. (you can also run cat /dev/kprint in a rio window to capture the console output (make sure to make the window scrolling)) I am using vanilla 9front. I believe it is rio. I tried putting it in and out and there is no message on the screen. I tried cat /dev/kprint and that too did not display anything. As I mentioned, when plugged in, for some reason, I am getting: /shr/usb/sdU6.0/ctl /shr/usb/sdU6.0/data /shr/usb/sdU6.0/raw I tried another USB drive. Same result. BTW, how do I abort a command such as the cat /dev/kpeint? I tried ^c, ^d. ^\. Nothing worked. I ended up having to delete the entire window. try a different dos formatted usb drive. -- cinap
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin szhil...@gmail.com wrote: Hello ! From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin Adding Users Add a new user on the file server: echo newuser username /srv/cwfs.cmd The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)http://man.aiju.de/8/fs manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results. The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on vanilla 9front.
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
Amazing how something so simple could stump someone. Thanks! On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Alexander Kapshuk alexander.kaps...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/23/2013 04:59 PM, Blake McBride wrote: BTW, how do I abort a command such as the cat /dev/kpeint? I tried ^c, ^d. ^\. Nothing worked. I ended up having to delete the entire window. Try the Delete key.
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
On 12/23/2013 05:11 PM, Blake McBride wrote: Amazing how something so simple could stump someone. Thanks! On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:04 AM, Alexander Kapshuk alexander.kaps...@gmail.com mailto:alexander.kaps...@gmail.com wrote: On 12/23/2013 04:59 PM, Blake McBride wrote: BTW, how do I abort a command such as the cat /dev/kpeint? I tried ^c, ^d. ^\. Nothing worked. I ended up having to delete the entire window. Try the Delete key. No worries.
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
Try the Delete key. Check keyboard(6) and rio(1). also note the ins key does auto filename completeion. Beware: these are all features of rio, if you have no rio, e.g. just a text console, none of this works, not even del (non-labs distributions not withstanding). -Steve
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Did you append or truncate. That command should work. 2013/12/23 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin szhil...@gmail.comwrote: Hello ! From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin Adding Users Add a new user on the file server: echo newuser username /srv/cwfs.cmd The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)http://man.aiju.de/8/fs manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results. The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on vanilla 9front.
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
On Mon Dec 23 10:18:49 EST 2013, st...@quintile.net wrote: Try the Delete key. Check keyboard(6) and rio(1). also note the ins key does auto filename completeion. Beware: these are all features of rio, if you have no rio, e.g. just a text console, none of this works, not even del (non-labs distributions not withstanding). i have a norio around somewhere that could run on the console, and provide all these features, but it seems so silly i've been keeping it to myself. - erik
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
that command file is really a bidirectional pipe. you didnt read the pipe so you do not see the command response. to get in a interactive dialog with the fileserver, you can run: con -Cl /srv/cwfs.cmd to leave this dialog, enter Ctrl+\enter and on cons prompt, type q the fileserver console commands for cwfs are described in fs(8). note, this is for the cwfs fileserver. the standard labs plan9 uses a the fossil fileserver which has different set of commands and uses /srv/fscons command file by convention. please take your time. read nemos book, the manuals and the the wiki. do some exploration before you want to setup everything to your liking. this is the 2nd step before the first. -- cinap
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
On Mon Dec 23 10:18:49 EST 2013, st...@quintile.net wrote: Try the Delete key. Check keyboard(6) and rio(1). also note the ins key does auto filename completeion. Beware: these are all features of rio, if you have no rio, e.g. just a text console, none of this works, not even del (non-labs distributions not withstanding). i have a norio around somewhere that could run on the console, and provide all these features, but it seems so silly i've been keeping it to myself. i've had several experiences where that would be very handy, and am likely to have more soon. maybe it can make it into 9atom or contrib? thanks! tristan -- All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on vanilla 9front. Has anyone verified that he's even running cwfs? sl
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
It works now. The docs were unclear to me. For example, this works: echo newuser george /srv/cwfs.cmd And this does not work (unsupprisingly): echo george george /srv/cwfs.cmd Unless you really look at it, it is unclear when to make a substitution (or fill in a variable), and when to type it literally. Perhaps the docs should say: echo newuser username /srv/cwfs.cmd where username is the name of the new user (without the ). Thanks. Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: Did you append or truncate. That command should work. 2013/12/23 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin szhil...@gmail.comwrote: Hello ! From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin Adding Users Add a new user on the file server: echo newuser username /srv/cwfs.cmd The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)http://man.aiju.de/8/fs manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results. The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on vanilla 9front.
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Or perhaps: echo newuser USER-NAME /srv/cwfs.cmd replace USER-NAME with the new user's name. If most commands are in lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need to be specified. On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: It works now. The docs were unclear to me. For example, this works: echo newuser george /srv/cwfs.cmd And this does not work (unsupprisingly): echo george george /srv/cwfs.cmd Unless you really look at it, it is unclear when to make a substitution (or fill in a variable), and when to type it literally. Perhaps the docs should say: echo newuser username /srv/cwfs.cmd where username is the name of the new user (without the ). Thanks. Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: Did you append or truncate. That command should work. 2013/12/23 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 22, 2013 at 11:19 PM, Sergey Zhilkin szhil...@gmail.comwrote: Hello ! From - https://code.google.com/p/plan9front/wiki/admin Adding Users Add a new user on the file server: echo newuser username /srv/cwfs.cmd The newuser filesystem command is described in the fs(8)http://man.aiju.de/8/fs manpage. Examine the '/adm/users' file to investigate the results. The above echo command did nothing to the /adm/users file for me on vanilla 9front.
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: Or perhaps: echo newuser USER-NAME /srv/cwfs.cmd replace USER-NAME with the new user's name. If most commands are in lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need to be specified. Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot reason. khm
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
If most commands are in lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need to be specified. If you view man pages as typeset with troff, you will see them in their full glory with syntactic categories suggested by different fonts. Instead of typing 'man cmd' try 'man -t cmd | page'. [Replace 'cmd' with the name of a command ... ] [[But don't type the 's]]
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
or man -p -- cinap
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
On Mon Dec 23 14:30:58 EST 2013, cinap_len...@felloff.net wrote: or man -p an equiv would be man -P, but man -p does work, though it's a completely different approach and looks different due to font handling. - erik
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but use the documentation as a reminder. It is difficult for a newbie to differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid documentation. I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective. You can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can insult them until they leave. I apologize for not being as smart as you. On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier k...@sciops.net wrote: Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: Or perhaps: echo newuser USER-NAME /srv/cwfs.cmd replace USER-NAME with the new user's name. If most commands are in lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need to be specified. Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot reason. khm
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
On Mon Dec 23 15:04:54 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier k...@sciops.net wrote: Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot reason. Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but use the documentation as a reminder. It is difficult for a newbie to differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid documentation. I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective. You can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can insult them until they leave. I apologize for not being as smart as you. i see no need for an exclusive community. i was attracted to plan 9 by simplicity; the concepts were easy to understand. if you can explain how to get to wall-mart, you can explain why plan 9 is interesting. plan 9 4th ed had really excellent documentation. we haven't done as good a job keeping up as we could have, and there is room for improvement. i am not sure if this particular example follows them, but man(6) should explain some of the typograpic conventions. there may be better references, but they don't come to mind. happy hacking season. - erik
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
I somewhat agree that some of the answers you are getting have somewhat been (sometimes, not all, and not constantly) been insulting. But a year or so ago I was also a Plan9 newbie, and I just read the manuals when I didn't know how to do something. I followed some long-ago-read advice of first smashing my head against the keyboard before asking the online guru. And by no means I'm an expert in systems programming, other *nixes or anything beside a small branch of mathematics (and this is fading, since I'm no longer actively researching) and a lot of stuff used in SEO and related areas by constant daily use at work. I have probably read acme(1) and acme(4) more than 70 times in the past year, and probably double that for plumb and plumber (in all of their sections.) And there are still a lot of things I don't understand when interacting with them, just the other day dove into acme's source to answer a question in #plan9 (about what the Abort command does.) Ruben On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but use the documentation as a reminder. It is difficult for a newbie to differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid documentation. I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective. You can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can insult them until they leave. I apologize for not being as smart as you. On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier k...@sciops.net wrote: Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: Or perhaps: echo newuser USER-NAME /srv/cwfs.cmd replace USER-NAME with the new user's name. If most commands are in lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need to be specified. Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot reason. khm
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
right right. my mistake. :) -- cinap
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Thanks for the input. I am making an increased effort to search before asking. I intuitively sense that Plan 9 has something significant to offer based on the little I know. The actual mechanics have been a challenge for me. Constructive feedback is deeply appreciated. On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Rubén Berenguel ru...@mostlymaths.netwrote: I somewhat agree that some of the answers you are getting have somewhat been (sometimes, not all, and not constantly) been insulting. But a year or so ago I was also a Plan9 newbie, and I just read the manuals when I didn't know how to do something. I followed some long-ago-read advice of first smashing my head against the keyboard before asking the online guru. And by no means I'm an expert in systems programming, other *nixes or anything beside a small branch of mathematics (and this is fading, since I'm no longer actively researching) and a lot of stuff used in SEO and related areas by constant daily use at work. I have probably read acme(1) and acme(4) more than 70 times in the past year, and probably double that for plumb and plumber (in all of their sections.) And there are still a lot of things I don't understand when interacting with them, just the other day dove into acme's source to answer a question in #plan9 (about what the Abort command does.) Ruben On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:03 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but use the documentation as a reminder. It is difficult for a newbie to differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid documentation. I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective. You can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can insult them until they leave. I apologize for not being as smart as you. On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 12:28 PM, Kurt H Maier k...@sciops.net wrote: Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: Or perhaps: echo newuser USER-NAME /srv/cwfs.cmd replace USER-NAME with the new user's name. If most commands are in lowercase, it might make sense to use uppercase names as things that need to be specified. Or perhaps we use the documentation as a way to weed out people who cannot reason. khm
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: Documentation is always clear to people who already know the material but use the documentation as a reminder. It is difficult for a newbie to differentiate out-of-date material, branch specific material, and valid documentation. I am providing feedback from a newbie's perspective. You can either take advantage of some of the feedback to make it easier for a newbie (that cannot reason) thus increasing the number of users, or you can insult them until they leave. I apologize for not being as smart as you. The documentation was not out-of-date or branch specific. The only problems you had with adding a user were born of your assumptions. You keep googling things, but google only helps you find information when you don't already know where it is. 9front has a wiki, doc.cat-v.org exists, /sys/doc exists, and man pages come free with each installation. Speaking of assumptions, I'm not convinced 'increasing the number of users' does anyone any good. It didn't help Windows any. khm
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Kurt H Maier k...@sciops.net wrote: ... Speaking of assumptions, I'm not convinced 'increasing the number of users' does anyone any good. It didn't help Windows any. khm Although number of users may not translate into a quality system (Microsoft is a prime example), number of users does translate into testers with some valid feedback, code contributors, vendor driver support, and money to pay core contributors (you?) among many other advantages. The best advantage of any networking system comes when an increased number of people use it so that the value offered by the networking system can be utilized and appreciated. There is value in a community. On the other hand, you can live in a cave and do whatever you like if you wish.
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
On Dec 23, 2013, at 16:45, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: money to pay core contributors (you?) http://mveety.com/just-send-the-money All proceeds go to me, the majority of which then go to khm.
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
There is value in a community. What remains of Plan 9 might be a better example of failing to seek out community in order to preserve the value, which is sometimes not clearly perceived by the interested few who show up at the party. Conversely, UNIX diverged from its original design philosophy and was adopted by progressively larger communities, finally becoming something of a global standard, where it still enjoys great popularity. What remains of UNIX is sometimes difficult to recognize. http://harmful.cat-v.org/cat-v sl
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
On Mon Dec 23 17:10:13 EST 2013, s...@9front.org wrote: There is value in a community. What remains of Plan 9 might be a better example of failing to seek out community in order to preserve the value, which is sometimes not clearly perceived by the interested few who show up at the party. isn't this a false dichotomy? rudeness doesn't preserve value. Conversely, UNIX diverged from its original design philosophy and was adopted by progressively larger communities, finally becoming something of a global standard, where it still enjoys great popularity. What remains of UNIX is sometimes difficult to recognize. it's easy to point out past mistakes. do you think these were obvious at the time they were made? the relevance for me is i don't want to help repeat these mistakes. the ucb and system iii, and system v distributions intended to make the labs' distributions more useful. it's easy now to point out where mistakes were made. how do we guard against making the same ones ourselves? trying to guide 9atom along, i worry a lot about this. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: ack, thanks... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 this should fix this issue, and update everything to current. sorry for the long delay. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I am having trouble with that link. Is it correct? Thanks. Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:11 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: ack, thanks... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 this should fix this issue, and update everything to current. sorry for the long delay. - erik
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
What remains of Plan 9 might be a better example of failing to seek out community in order to preserve the value, which is sometimes not clearly perceived by the interested few who show up at the party. isn't this a false dichotomy? rudeness doesn't preserve value. The TUPE[0] -related material is a valuable reference point in this discussion specifically because it's all thirty years old. This tension between technical and social pressures is nothing new. I'm not specifically advocating rudeness, but it's worth pointing out that more than one book written by former Bell Labs staff specifically accuses our 1127 heroes of indulging in precisely this sort of conceitedness (not my word) and condescension towards outsiders. I bring this up only to illustrate what people choose to focus upon, and what they choose to ignore. The complaints are always the same, whether it is Rob Pike or Theo de Raadt who has made someone cry. The objections, -- no, demands -- are always the same sort of I'm new new guy, treat my bad ideas as if they were good ideas, or I'll tell everyone you're a jerk attempts at social extortion that are familiar to anyone who has ever worked on an open source software project. Worse, now, as community has become the central concern of many such projects. How many times have you seen someone declare that they refuse to use OpenBSD simply because Theo made some crazy remark? This is the level at which the discourse occurs. Meanwhile, there is the code. Which operating system with lots of developers and lots of users is not terrible? Do we posit some connection between the social structure of operating system development (as we've observed it) and the end result? What are the lessons learned? Ken referred to open source as open sewers. Theo runs his project with an iron fist, and if you don't like it, you're free to spend your time somewhere else. Neither of these attitudes are conducive to the type of inclusiveness sought after by those who concern themselves primarily with community. In the case of Bell Labs, their code was not even widely circulated to the general public for much of the period in question. Thought exercise: Try to recall how gladly fools were suffered in the early days of the 9fans mailing list. At some point, you have to stop entertaining the bad ideas and work on the good ones, even if that makes some people unhappy. This is how we got UNIX (and later, Plan 9) in the first place. It is possible this perspective has been expressed more gracefully elsewhere. What remains of UNIX is sometimes difficult to recognize. it's easy to point out past mistakes. do you think these were obvious at the time they were made? The class of mistakes we are dealing with today were not acknowedged in 1983 and are still not acknowledged today. The entire software tools philosophy was rejected, long ago, and as Rob pointed out, perl delivered the elegy. This is rendered obvious when a longtime UNIX user tries out Plan 9 for the first time. Go on, I'm sure you can predict the first several complaints that will be voiced. Was this rejection intentional? Did they (the perpetrators) really disagree with the perspective of the UNIX authors, or were they simply ignorant of the arguments being presented? I certainly was, until the existence of the documents I keep linking to was brought to my attention. In your experience, how well does the average UNIX enthusiast understand these ideas, and how are they received, when explained? Well, there are hordes of these people at the gate, and they are insisting that we honor their demands as a matter of course. All of their bad ideas MUST go into the system. NOW. Or else you're a jerk. What? You think our ideas need more time to develop? That's not a very nice thing to say. I demand that you take us seriously, RIGHT NOW. Gee, you guys think you're so smart! Your privilege is showing! What if we open the gate, just a crack... The whole question of rudeness is based upon the false premise that it makes sense to treat each new airing of a bad idea as if it were the first expression of a potential breakthrough. Limited resources are quickly consumed by public relations. Projects that have produced material of value typically eschew these exercises in favor of doing the real work. sl [0] The UNIX Programming Environment, by Brian W. Kernighan and Rob Pike
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Quoting erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net: On Mon Dec 23 17:10:13 EST 2013, s...@9front.org wrote: isn't this a false dichotomy? rudeness doesn't preserve value. Neither does gladhanding. it's easy to point out past mistakes. do you think these were obvious at the time they were made? Whether they were obvious is too subjective to determine. They were (often very loudly) recognized as mistakes. The problem, as usual, is that a well-funded mistake is far more likely to succeed than an impoverished masterpiece. Obvious? I'll never know. But people I respect decried lots of these decisions at the time they were made. Without getting into the chicken- and-egg problem of how I came to respect some of these people, in a lot of cases, stumbling across an angry netnews missive from a usenet address I trusted was catalytic in my process of coming to grips with some understanding of correct software design. The Unix Hater's Handbook is a collection of articles in this vein; there are systems eulogized therein which were displaced by the rise of unix, and whose passing makes me truly sad to have missed out on an era of computing with real diversity in system design. This is why harmful.cat-v.org is so important, and it's why I don't have any interest in suffering fools on internet mailing lists. If community is important in guiding software trends, it's important to nip encroaching macrocultures in the bud; otherwise we wind up with POSIX everywhere, and an entire generation of computer users who can't even conceive of a world without it. People like Blake can present me with bullshit about 'living in a cave' all day long -- but the surest way to prevent mistakes is to cause people to defend proposed change within an inch of their lives. That's the original point of a thesis defense, and the principal is no less valid on a mail list. Most people seem to take such challenges personally; this is just because they're not used to being challenged. It will pass. khm
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: There is value in a community. Irrelevant; the question at hand is whether your specific participation in a community enhances its value. On the other hand, you can live in a cave and do whatever you like if you wish. *This* is a false dichotomy. I choose *not* to live in a cave *and* to do whatever I like. khm
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp). d On 24/12/2013, at 9:44 AM, Blake McBride wrote: I am having trouble with that link. Is it correct? Thanks. Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:11 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: ack, thanks... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 this should fix this issue, and update everything to current. sorry for the long delay. - erik signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
I feel a community code of conduct doc forthcoming in this list's future. I'll copy/pasta the one from go-nuts, where the discussion surrounding it was very lively
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp). i'm sorry should be ftp, though. thanks for the correction! - erik
Re: [9fans] Encoding private RSA key to PEM with p9p
Ok thanks for the help. I'm trying to use it with 9vx + lastest 9front rootfs that already have this patch applied. I put my client private key into factotum like this: % cat client.key.plan9 /mnt/factotum/ctl Then I'm trying to dial with tlsclient: % tlsclient -D -c client.crt.pem -t ca.crt.pem tcp!127.0.0.1!5640 As you told me, if there is no certificate chain verification, I may better provide the server certificate instead of the ca's: % tlsclient -D -c client.crt.pem -t server.crt.pem tcp!127.0.0.1!5640 Is it the right thing to do? I read the man page but I don't get what tlsclient does that allow me to finally mount the fs. For now, I get the error message could not negociate acceptable security parameters. I tried disabling client authentication on the server side. Same error message. Maybe it is because I use the cipher suite TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA which might not be supported... 2013/12/19 David du Colombier 0in...@gmail.com I think I also need to add the server's CA's certificate, so factotum can check the server identity. Right? Factotum is meant to store the private keys. The CA certificate would probably have its place in /sys/lib/tls (in PEM format). However, this is not needed, since the current X.509 implementation in Plan 9 doesn't verify certificate chain. Also, TLS client authentication isn't currently supported in Plan 9, but you could try Christian Kellermann's implementation. http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/patch/maybe/tls-client-auth/ hget http://www.9legacy.org/9legacy/patch/tls-client-auth.diff | ape/patch -p0 -- David du Colombier -- Jean-André Santoni
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
Please make sure to include tact sucks on the list. On Dec 23, 2013, at 4:57 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: I feel a community code of conduct doc forthcoming in this list's future. I'll copy/pasta the one from go-nuts, where the discussion surrounding it was very lively
Re: [9fans] Adding a new user on 9-Front
A quote I like from the 80s at the Labs - netnews is like standing up in a crowded theater and shouting 'anyone wanna buy a used car?'. Please consider when posting to his list that you might be doing the same. (Not directed at anyone specifically). brucee On 24 December 2013 13:49, Skip Tavakkolian skip.tavakkol...@gmail.comwrote: Please make sure to include tact sucks on the list. On Dec 23, 2013, at 4:57 PM, andrey mirtchovski mirtchov...@gmail.com wrote: I feel a community code of conduct doc forthcoming in this list's future. I'll copy/pasta the one from go-nuts, where the discussion surrounding it was very lively
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Thanks for the new boot trial. I am still getting an error on my HP as follows: ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?) It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen. Please let me know if more info would be helpful. Hope this helps. Thanks! Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:03 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp). i'm sorry should be ftp, though. thanks for the correction! - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Mon Dec 23 22:14:10 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Thanks for the new boot trial. I am still getting an error on my HP as follows: ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?) It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen. Please let me know if more info would be helpful. sorry to have set the expectation that this error would have been resolved. there are still a few limitations in the ehci implementation. these are high on the list, but not quite the top yet. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Hope my feedback is a help. I'm ready to try more whenever you are. Thanks! Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:30 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Mon Dec 23 22:14:10 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Thanks for the new boot trial. I am still getting an error on my HP as follows: ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?) It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen. Please let me know if more info would be helpful. sorry to have set the expectation that this error would have been resolved. there are still a few limitations in the ehci implementation. these are high on the list, but not quite the top yet. - erik
Re: [9fans] 9Front network (driver?) issue
i've had several experiences where that would be very handy, and am likely to have more soon. maybe it can make it into 9atom or contrib? 9fs atom; cat /n/atom/plan9/sys/src/cmd/aux/norio.c no man page yet. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Mon Dec 23 22:37:27 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Hope my feedback is a help. I'm ready to try more whenever you are. it is, but also as anyone else is, you are welcome to submit patches fixing issues. apatch/create issuename email@sub.domain file - erik
[9fans] 9vx on Mac OSX 10.9.1
Hello, After recent update of OSX, 9vx puts to the console very noisy messages such as: 2013-12-18 10:49:13.529 9vx.OSX[588:1503] Warning - conversion from 64 bit to 32 bit integral value requested within NSPortCoder, but the 64 bit value 140734683798163 cannot be represented by a 32 bit value … … Anyone noticed the same problem? How to fix? Kenji Arisawa
Re: [9fans] 9vx on Mac OSX 10.9.1
On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 13:04:18 +0900 arisawa aris...@ar.aichi-u.ac.jp wrote: Hello, After recent update of OSX, 9vx puts to the console very noisy messages such as: 2013-12-18 10:49:13.529 9vx.OSX[588:1503] Warning - conversion from 64 bit to 32 bit integral value requested within NSPortCoder, but the 64 bit value 140734683798163 cannot be represented by a 32 bit value I don't see this. But I haven't rebuilt 9vx in over 2 years (and can't rebuild it under 10.9*).
