Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 >On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:57:16 +1300 >Andrew Simmons wrote: > > As a diversion from the discussion of the existential essence of > Javascript, could I ask the group for a view on the meaning of the > term "Web Garden"? I was just asked about this in a job interview. > Supplementary question - how would you implement a Web Garden in > Plan9? How do you call isolated ecosystems put up by the big players (Facebook, Tweeter and such) that hold all the data within and disallow linking to that data from the outside? I seem to remember "Web Garden" was used, but it could also be a "Walled Garden".. - -- Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih. All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them. - -- You don't need an AI for a robot uprising. Humans will do just fine. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.15 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJWHDeHAAoJEKa4cgqNx31/pWcP/3i7rBawmHLFLnl6m5jB6hMb HDaa2qDGrum3COn94sukeKApcUUmCJcA8HrWZryctfzT+5JAK/1XnfSdi5X3oRJv hJY2P1a/aW8y9aOXyE6xh4e2h586mU5YOvpN9sY6oltSvB4K+8SgBxQ3ib1KXQtf 2vIuOTpo1d0bvXdI67qbfoj3ewY094FvLkPDDsLTV4f5Qz0ICJYt0o2IdvnUfUtW isWAA352ujsxrItJ9dvURRhIpihKB1ufdIE//DvOEb9ZOcIyXdNYlpOKwHgd GutOBvj6IakYA6ORZpILCLT93E+iHP83AnLMWq3orW6X32hkQHQoWlxzASDN0TtS zFork2otQnaQImgZtSukH4aBlYemqvZqkqz07haleSEJIuuZgZM/geBmLLZgFTA7 W0QPsP7vEfbm7uGFGtu7oEzdNMLQNiFTtpKQo4f70WGBjOQpcddAPVnbilXcLTnv wYs+U0k1pBRMyLtHMhWza2elx6D96AmahMr1AaSjskPvDVaGMcvyP9NkAGny9C7x /ma1D1N995YWuPU8QEK9uXR0j2owBPp5Oh3mv2Eoy9GIpMjTNXRJNRGD3RUATjYm jtiBWbd0C3EpIHx11ucJ3/lr6vxE8PHGjih2Vp20J7vkbYQHRaF8NXoDsKXObnFw aC7pcWHF0eUln9KxQtl+ =KDva -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [9fans] off topic - a good Git reference
2015-10-12 19:00 GMT+02:00 Charles Forsyth : > > On 12 October 2015 at 17:49, Álvaro Jurado wrote: > >> what ensures sha key is in fs. > > > The reason many of us are a little sceptical about it being fsync as such > preventing the data appearing > is that if the git function that writes the key does a write or pwrite, > the key will be in the file system on Plan 9: there's no need for an fsync > just to get it there. > In fact, in Linux there's no need for an fsync just to get it there: it > only matters in the case of a crash. > > If the file system fails or you reset the machine, the intention of the > fsync will be frustrated, but > it shouldn't affect normal operation where no file server crash occurs. > > As it happens, a wstat that changes nothing can be interpreted by a file > server to have a similar effect as fsync (see stat(5)). > Thus Plan9 HAS fsync! :-o And it also has server-defined semantics! Very impressive! Giacomo
Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
Thanks to all for the excellent and occasionally informative suggestions. I don’t think there’s any risk of my being offered the job, but I wish I’d had the concepts of “web allotment” and “web sharecropper” to hand during the interview. > On Oct 13, 2015, at 5:13 AM, Kurt H Maier wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 05:57:16PM +1300, Andrew Simmons wrote: >> As a diversion from the discussion of the existential essence of Javascript, >> could I ask the group for a view on the meaning of the term "Web Garden"? >> I was just asked about this in a job interview. > > This is a concept that has developed in the Windows world because a lot > of the .net web server tech tends to share state per-process. In order > to have multiple backend processes running on a single server you > generally have to play games with information sharing between processes. > It's just another reason web services on Windows can be such a pain in > the ass. > >> Supplementary question - how would you implement a Web Garden in Plan9? > > We've found it easier to hire more web sharecroppers when yields aren't > sufficient. > > khm >
Re: [9fans] off topic - a good Git reference
Has sense. Thanks Charles. Álvaro El 12/10/2015 19:03, "Charles Forsyth" escribió: > > On 12 October 2015 at 17:49, Álvaro Jurado wrote: > >> what ensures sha key is in fs. > > > The reason many of us are a little sceptical about it being fsync as such > preventing the data appearing > is that if the git function that writes the key does a write or pwrite, > the key will be in the file system on Plan 9: there's no need for an fsync > just to get it there. > In fact, in Linux there's no need for an fsync just to get it there: it > only matters in the case of a crash. > > If the file system fails or you reset the machine, the intention of the > fsync will be frustrated, but > it shouldn't affect normal operation where no file server crash occurs. > > As it happens, a wstat that changes nothing can be interpreted by a file > server to have a similar effect as fsync (see stat(5)). >
Re: [9fans] off topic - a good Git reference
On 12 October 2015 at 17:49, Álvaro Jurado wrote: > what ensures sha key is in fs. The reason many of us are a little sceptical about it being fsync as such preventing the data appearing is that if the git function that writes the key does a write or pwrite, the key will be in the file system on Plan 9: there's no need for an fsync just to get it there. In fact, in Linux there's no need for an fsync just to get it there: it only matters in the case of a crash. If the file system fails or you reset the machine, the intention of the fsync will be frustrated, but it shouldn't affect normal operation where no file server crash occurs. As it happens, a wstat that changes nothing can be interpreted by a file server to have a similar effect as fsync (see stat(5)).
Re: [9fans] off topic - a good Git reference
I remember tracing entire clone process. It was hanging in a function (don't remember which, the only one has fsync) what ensures sha key is in fs. I bypassed it with a rare mess, so if key is there, it works, if not, fails. In fact fsync changes introduced by Linus was in the line of ensuring that key is there to decompress package. Maybe I was wrong. When I'll back to port git for Harvey, I'll see. Álvaro El 12/10/2015 13:49, "Charles Forsyth" escribió: > > On 10 October 2015 at 19:25, Álvaro Jurado wrote: > >> While checking out it looses in any moment some sha key and then fatal. >> Other times not. > > > Why do you think that was fsync, and not something else? > >
Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 05:57:16PM +1300, Andrew Simmons wrote: > As a diversion from the discussion of the existential essence of Javascript, > could I ask the group for a view on the meaning of the term "Web Garden"? > I was just asked about this in a job interview. This is a concept that has developed in the Windows world because a lot of the .net web server tech tends to share state per-process. In order to have multiple backend processes running on a single server you generally have to play games with information sharing between processes. It's just another reason web services on Windows can be such a pain in the ass. > Supplementary question - how would you implement a Web Garden in Plan9? We've found it easier to hire more web sharecroppers when yields aren't sufficient. khm
Re: [9fans] off topic - a good Git reference
erik quanstrom wrote: |On Wed Oct 7 14:25:58 PDT 2015, elbingm...@gmail.com wrote: |in the case of system crash, fsync doesn't provide strong \ |guarantees that the |write will not be lost, or the fs not corrupted even in li\ |nux. some versions of |the linux kernel do nothing on fsync, fsync doesn't actual\ Linux fsync(2) says that the file itself is fine after it, but for the filesystem metadata you need an additional fsync(2) on the directory the file resides in. The final wording of the related POSIX issue[1] states that the latter is only necessary if directory entries have been created or removed (also regarding rename(2) which needs two fsync(2) calls; luckily we're binary only), and noone has opposed to this wording in more than two years. (Mac OS X Snow Leopard had a F_FULLFSYNC fcntl(2) which provided the fully-synced guarantee, as in _os_fsync = os.fsync def __fullfsync(fd): if not SAFE_FSYNC: return _os_fsync(fd) try: fcntl.fcntl(fd, fcntl.F_FULLFSYNC) except IOError as e: if e.errno == errno.ENOTTY: return _os_fsync(fd) raise os.fsync = __fullfsync which i thought of as a good idea, from a programmers point of view who wants to get it done.) [1] http://austingroupbugs.net/view.php?id=672#c1618 --steffen
Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
I had never heard this term before, but this is perfect. Well done. > I thought a web garden was a hobbyist version of a server farm.
Re: [9fans] off topic - a good Git reference
On 10 October 2015 at 19:25, Álvaro Jurado wrote: > While checking out it looses in any moment some sha key and then fatal. > Other times not. Why do you think that was fsync, and not something else?
Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
I think I once saw one at the Chelsea flower show, Designed and produced by a team of 37 spiders... -Steve > On 12 Oct 2015, at 10:49, Staven wrote: > > I thought a web garden was a hobbyist version of a server farm. >
Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
No, that's a web allotment On 12 October 2015 at 10:49, Staven wrote: > I thought a web garden was a hobbyist version of a server farm. > > >
Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
I thought a web garden was a hobbyist version of a server farm.
Re: [9fans] Web Gardens
sounds organic, try to avoid that job.
