Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Iruatã Souza]

Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 23:02, Lucas Francesco 
a écrit :

> I think we're way beyond the peak of 3 if consider non 9labs, as I'm a
> brazillian myself and have been using 9front for almost 2y, and have been
> slowly introducing my brother and my current mate to it.
>

I'm glad to hear that! The 3 persons back then were Federico Benavento
(fgb), Felipe Bichued and I.


> Leo, best of luck on the distro though, I'd really like 9 to be
> niche-popular but I don't think translating stuff is the way to go, if it
> wasn't for covid I was going to start  lecturing about it at the uni I'm in
> but with prior warnings that all the content is in English.
>
> Lucas
>
> Em sáb, 29 de ago de 2020 16:55, Iruatã Souza 
> escreveu:
>
>> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> Cool!
>>>
>>> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning
>>> of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles
>>> and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers
>>> but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern
>>> browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>>>
>>>
>> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc)
>> Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went,
>> but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port,
>> and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>>
>> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
>>
>> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying
>> to address?
>> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to
>> yours.
>>
>> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
>>
>> iru
>>
>>
>>> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write
>>> to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need
>>> to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
>>> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
>>> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
>>> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
>>> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
>>> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
>>> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
>>> base?
>>>
>> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 
>

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Iruatã Souza]

Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 23:21, Lucas Francesco 
a écrit :

> >As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc)
> Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went,
> but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port,
> and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>
> Also another note: from what I know fgb ( as you mention Abaco and he
> is the creator) Is argentinian, and Argentina isn't Brazillian
> territory, yet. I know "responsible" can have a different
> connotation/implication than creator, so i'd love to hear some
> clarification if there's a backstory though.
>

Fgb is indeed Argentinian, but speaks perfect Portuguese and lived for a
number of years in Brazil. Also, at least for a part of the timespan I
mentioned he lived in Brazil (we even lived in the same street for a
month!) That's why I considered him as one of the regular users in Brazil.

I have no idea about the current 9front bootloader, and would love to
> hear notes about who did it, thanks to bringing it to light.
>

I am the one who did the early work on it. The ideas have been presented in
http://4e.iwp9.org/papers/9null.pdf.


Lucas
>
> Em sáb., 29 de ago. de 2020 às 16:55, Iruatã Souza
>  escreveu:
> >
> > Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo  a
> écrit :
> >>
> >> Cool!
> >>
> >> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the
> beginning of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation
> (articles and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not
> for hackers but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like
> a modern browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of
> powerpoint etc.
> >
> > As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc)
> Plan 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went,
> but those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port,
> and the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
> >
> > So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
> >
> > Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are
> trying to address?
> > I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to
> yours.
> >
> > Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
> >
> > iru
> >
> >>
> >> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files,
> write to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you
> need to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
> base?
> >
> > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options
> Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[ori]

> I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?

Porting software is expensive and time consuming. Unix
mostly works. On top of that, Unix has many features.
Bolted on in ways that don't fit, but features that
aren't provided by Plan 9 tools, nonetheless.

When given a familiar but ugly environment with more
features, which requires less work to get their familiar
software running, what do you expect the result to be?


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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Lucas Francesco]

>As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan 9 
>reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but those 
>3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and the initial 
>work into what is now the 9front bootloader.

Also another note: from what I know fgb ( as you mention Abaco and he
is the creator) Is argentinian, and Argentina isn't Brazillian
territory, yet. I know "responsible" can have a different
connotation/implication than creator, so i'd love to hear some
clarification if there's a backstory though.

I have no idea about the current 9front bootloader, and would love to
hear notes about who did it, thanks to bringing it to light.

Lucas

Em sáb., 29 de ago. de 2020 às 16:55, Iruatã Souza
 escreveu:
>
> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo  a écrit :
>>
>> Cool!
>>
>> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning of 
>> this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles and 
>> man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers but 
>> for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern browser, 
>> a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>>
>
> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan 9 
> reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but 
> those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and the 
> initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>
> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
>
> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying to 
> address?
> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.
>
> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
>
> iru
>
>>
>> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write to 
>> files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need to 
>> do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented SELinux 
>> (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security point of 
>> view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide much. Okay, 
>> it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced the idea of 
>> namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter idea: each 
>> process can have its own restricted view of the universe of files. I really 
>> don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Kurt H Maier]

On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 01:43:49PM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> On 8/29/20 1:25 PM, Leonardo wrote:
> > I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
> 
> By giving a lot of control to the user Plan 9 and its derivatives 
> undermine the Silicon Valley business model, which is built upon 
> breaking into your information home, taking your personal intellectual 
> property, and putting it on their balance sheets as a money making 
> asset. In other words, burglary and theft.

I'm with you on the topic of the ethical void rampant in a lot of SV
tech companies, but this take is off the mark.  SV businesses trade on
convenience; it's only late-stage multinationals that attempt to
leverage monopoly to remove user control.  Fortunately by that stage
they're poorly enough run that internal competition leads to senescense
and new challengers introduce choice again.  It happened to Nokia,
IBM, Microsoft, and it's currently happening to Google, but all of them
got to that late stage by selling stuff people wanted, not alone by
being jerks.

The new model is to burn venture capital to get that market control, 
but the same principal applies:  by the time you're big enough to exert
sufficient force to exploit a monopoly, you're sufficiently large that
internal competition prevents you from operating efficiently.  

I think AT&T's sense of entitlement regarding their IP, combined with
the fact that Plan 9 was never presented as a consumer-facing product
(it was a research platform) had more to do with any lack of uptake.  In
other words, had it proved popular, the vultures would have arrived and
done the same things they do on most platforms.  In this case, better
roosts had appeared by the time Plan 9 became something the vultures 
considered to be worth exploiting.

I am grateful to the people who put effort into letting us have the code
regardless of whatever we might imagine their motivations are.  I'm glad
we have access and that the access we have lets us shoot for whatever
targets align with our priorities.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Lucas Francesco]

I think we're way beyond the peak of 3 if consider non 9labs, as I'm a
brazillian myself and have been using 9front for almost 2y, and have been
slowly introducing my brother and my current mate to it.

Leo, best of luck on the distro though, I'd really like 9 to be
niche-popular but I don't think translating stuff is the way to go, if it
wasn't for covid I was going to start  lecturing about it at the uni I'm in
but with prior warnings that all the content is in English.

Lucas

Em sáb, 29 de ago de 2020 16:55, Iruatã Souza 
escreveu:

> Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo  a
> écrit :
>
>> Cool!
>>
>> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning
>> of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles
>> and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers
>> but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern
>> browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>>
>>
> As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan
> 9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but
> those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and
> the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.
>
> So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)
>
> Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying
> to address?
> I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.
>
> Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!
>
> iru
>
>
>> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write
>> to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need
>> to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
>> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
>> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
>> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
>> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
>> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
>> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
>> base?
>>
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 
>

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Iruatã Souza]

Le sam. 29 août 2020 à 19:26, Leonardo  a écrit :

> Cool!
>
> I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning
> of this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles
> and man pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers
> but for common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern
> browser, a word processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.
>
>
As another historical note, for a number of years (2006 to 2009 iirc) Plan
9 reached the peak of 3 regular users in Brazil. Others came and went, but
those 3 are responsible for at least abaco, the initial python port, and
the initial work into what is now the 9front bootloader.

So, Leonardo, welcome aboard :)

Besides translation, what are the Brazilian-specific needs you are trying
to address?
I highly recommend you search the list for other projects similar to yours.

Anyway, I wish you the best of luck in the journey!

iru


> I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write
> to files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need
> to do? Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented
> SELinux (mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security
> point of view, the idea of discretionary access control did not provide
> much. Okay, it's an idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced
> the idea of namespace which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter
> idea: each process can have its own restricted view of the universe of
> files. I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy
> base?
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 
>

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Wes Kussmaul]

On 8/29/20 2:36 PM, Leonardo wrote:
Metcapitalism, an evil even worse than socialism: this is why the 
technology giants have also become ideology giants.


There is a way to shut off the water supply to metacapitalism.

This is off topic here, so email me if you want to have this discussion.

(Or read my books... :))


Please note that my presentation at the International Cryptographic

Module Conference ICMC 2020 
 
has been rescheduled to September 16.


*Wes Kussmaul*

*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA
t: +1 781 790 1674
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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Leonardo]

Metcapitalism, an evil even worse than socialism: this is why the technology 
giants have also become ideology giants.
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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Wes Kussmaul]

On 8/29/20 1:25 PM, Leonardo wrote:

I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?


By giving a lot of control to the user Plan 9 and its derivatives 
undermine the Silicon Valley business model, which is built upon 
breaking into your information home, taking your personal intellectual 
property, and putting it on their balance sheets as a money making 
asset. In other words, burglary and theft.


--

Please note that my presentation at the International Cryptographic

Module Conference ICMC 2020 
 
has been rescheduled to September 16.


*Wes Kussmaul*

*Reliable Identities, Inc.*
an Authenticity Enterprise
738 Main Street
Waltham, MA 02451 USA
t: +1 781 790 1674
m: +1 781 330 1881
e: w...@reliableid.com 

Learn About Authenticity 

This message is confidential. It may also be privileged or otherwise 
protected by work product immunity or other legal rules. If you have 
received it by mistake, please let us know by e-mail reply and delete it 
from your system; you may not copy this message or disclose its contents 
to anyone. The integrity and security of this message cannot be assured 
unless it is digitally signed by the PEN of an identity certificate with 
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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

[Leonardo]

Cool!

I want to make a Plan 9 distro aimed at brazilians: I'm at the beginning of 
this journey. My plan is to translate all the documentation (articles and man 
pages), try to make the system more user friendly (not for hackers but for 
common people) and also work in ordinary software like a modern browser, a word 
processor, spreadsheet software, a kind of powerpoint etc.

I am studying Plan 9 and I am totally in love with it: read files, write to 
files and again: read files, write to files. And what else do you need to do? 
Little or nothing: things are really simple. The NSA invented SELinux 
(mandatory access control) because it saw that, from a security point of view, 
the idea of discretionary access control did not provide much. Okay, it's an 
idea and it works. But Plan 9, before, had introduced the idea of namespace 
which is, by the way, a much simpler and smarter idea: each process can have 
its own restricted view of the universe of files. I really don't understand why 
Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
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