Re: [9fans] Article: Modern storage is plenty fast. It is the APIs that are bad.

2020-12-10 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Thu, 10 Dec 2020 08:38:14 -0500
Robert Sherwood  wrote:

> This is a very interesting article. I'm not enough of an expert on low
> level device access APIs to judge its accuracy, but I thought some of
> you might find it interesting.
> 
> https://itnext.io/modern-storage-is-plenty-fast-it-is-the-apis-that-are-bad-6a68319fbc1a

I had to view this article in Lynx because Firefox wouldn't display
it, due to all the JavaScript. I think that is a good, apt and
important metaphor for the state of modern IT. xD

On the assumption one actually is in a situation where usage of NVMe
devices make sense apriori, I think the article makes valid points. The
catch is most of us are in situations where rotary disks are just good
enough, so the very use of bus-connected SSD storage is under question.

Illustrations: in terms of personal use of computers, I find that only
the very latest of so-called "AAA video games" are having problems with
my single spindle. YouTube doesn't really depend on the (my) disk. For
some years now, I've been working in a web-business, and speaking in
those terms, if you own the hardware your business runs on, you will
probably be playing an optimization game where cost is sure to be a
pretty serious long term concern (even though I hear that on the West
they shell out enormous money for hardware since optimization experts
cost even more that warehouses of underutilized hardware). I did a
little check on Amazon and can see that per-TiB, rotary disks are still
about half the price of various bus-connected SSDs. That's a headwind.
Does it really make sense to spend thousands of iops on a requirement
that could be removed spending a day or two optimizing the server
application? I'm also not sure what effects RAID will have on the
performance of these disks. And if you happen to be a pleb that
utilizes the cloud, you can kiss your I/O optimizations goodbye since
your disk actually lives on a different floor, maybe even a different
building than your CPU/memory and they are connected through a thin
iSCSI/FibreChannel straw you happen to share with 30 other people.

However, io_uris is a very likable solution. I'm glad I read a bit
about it, even if it isn't really all that revolutionary. Good
solutions rarely are. ;)

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Re: [9fans] UARTing into RPi 2

2020-04-10 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
>On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 09:45:00 +0100
>Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com> wrote:
>
> Add to the end of the command line in cmdline.txt:
>   console='0 b115200'
> and you should see a shell prompt on the serial port when you reboot.

>On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 10:45:51 +0200
>"David du Colombier" <0in...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> You should add "console='0 b115200'" at the end of kernel boot
> parameters in cmdline.txt.

Wow, you guys were literally seconds apart with your answers. What are
the odds? xD

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Re: [9fans] The Case for Bind

2017-09-14 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
>On Thu, 14 Sep 2017 14:58:02 +
>Marshall Conover  wrote:

> I have two scenarios currently I feel make a strong argument for the
> inclusion of bind: one is running tests on an install of a product
> while still being able to do development on it, by using a bind to
> redirect the development dll to the install's dll in the process I'm
> developing in; and the other an example of when a bind would just be
> convenient, such as a certain process needing python2 instead of
> python3 on a system which defaults to python 3, and have scripts that
> reference #/bin/python.

I have a honest feeling you will end up as roadkill with this sort of
approach.

You are discussing individual specific use cases; accepting your
argument relies on the other party being imaginative enough to
independently see the value of the proposal. Generally speaking, if the
person has not already seen the value of an idea, they are probably not
going to have an epiphany after you throw them some examples.

Instead, try discussing the correctness of the premise, and how it is
steeped in fundamental value. Try: "The ability to binding filesystem
elements between different paths of a filesystem is of critical
importance to the operating system flexibility and usability. While
many current users, brought up on Windows, may lack the vision of the
features usability, with the continued refinement of public expertise
in all matters IT, there will mature the opinion that binding is a
right-of-entry feature, with operating systems lacking it being
summarily dismissed."

There. If they don't buy that, then their vision is flawed, the project
mistargeted and governance found lacking. And they will fail. You don't
want to waste your time and energy on a doomed project.

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Re: [9fans] VoCore SoC?

2016-11-05 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Thu, 03 Nov 2016 23:24:27 +
>"James A. Robinson"  wrote:
>
> This looks like it might be of interest to others on the list:
> 
> http://vocore.io/
> 
> Jim

It is of interest, yes. :)

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Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-19 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 11:28:13 +0200
>hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do I understand correctly, you just want to avoid having to implement
> the complexities of TCP on an fpga? If there was a TCP IP core would
> you buy it?
> Why does VNC require an fpga, are you going to transfer enormous
> resolutions? If yes then I personally would use UDP and a lossy and
> loss tolerant compression.
> If not I would use TCP and no FPGA.

The idea here is to implement a FOSH computer. Currently, I'm pilfering
a lot of technology from Milkymist but I already had to write my own
bits of hardware - so far only a memory controler. I wasn't happy with
what Milkymist was using so I wrote my own. By the time I finish, I'll
probably also implement the framebuffer with the video output. Gigabit
ethernet is also somewhere in the pipeline and will probably get
implemented, *if* I can get its analog bits to work properly. I already
have a working 10BASE-T implementation (and some other things) so I'm
not a newbie at this.

However, because of the severe speed limits imposed by the
implementation technology (FPGA), this computer will never be
particularly fast. If you want to play pretty video games and watch
pretty CGI videos, the obvious solution is to have a separate computer
serve as the CPU server and renderer with the bitty box being a
terminal.

One option is to do the normal software based processing. But once you
do the math, you realize that either you won't be sending a lot of
data or your FPGA CPU won't be doing a lot of processing because of the
interaction between system components contending to access the main
memory.

The main memory is implemented as DDR1 SDRAM. DRAM *really* doesn't
like random memory accesses - the kind CPU will execute. You can
optimize the memory controller to serve the CPU well, but then you are
left in a bind when it comes time to implement the DMA because it
has the exact opposite memory access profile. Not having the DMA is
completely and absolutely out of the question, ofcourse.

You can use, perhaps, wide memory buses and well optimized cache line
sizes to perform DMA in short bursts, but each DMA-CPU switchover is
expensive because (unless you get really lucky) you need to open and
close memory pages. This sets an upper limit to the data transfer
before the human usability of the system tanks.

Streaming 1280x1024x24 video at 25 fps is, you guessed it, way beyond
that limit.

So the solution, I believe, is to perform DMA at the different point,
specifically, between the network interface and the framebuffer/video
card. This scheme completely bypasses the main memory, leaving the CPU
to run at full capacity but has the drawback that now the framebuffer
has to talk network. The obvious hack is to have the CPU initiate,
handshake and configure the connection and then hand it over to the
framebuffer for data transfer. The obvious problem is that the
framebuffer STILL needs to talk network, albeit not whole protocols but only 
the grindy parts, leaving the more intricate bits to the CPU.

Did I mention network analysis needs to be on-the-fly? Yeah, there
ain't enough memory on the chip to store the whole network packet, and
there aren't enough I/O pins on the device to store it off-device. So
you just have to handle the packet literally as it is zooming past you. Receive 
the headers, analyze if the packet is for us or the CPU (and
route it there if that's the case), read the application headers, set
up the datapath, ram data into the video DRAM and maybe
invalidate/rollback the whole operation if any of the myriad checksums
indicate a transmission error. Yes, we're checksumming. :)

I'm not saying it's possible, I'm only saying that I'll try and that I
need a simple transport protocol to help me do it. :)

I chose VNC because (a) it's actually a pretty neat protocol and (b)
it's all over the place. You could use it to interface to a whole host
of applications. VNC, on its side, requires a reliable transport. TCP
is way too complicated for a few thousand gates of digital logic (I
think) and UDP is not reliable enough. So, I went looking.

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Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-19 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:36:55 +0200
>Aleksandar Kuktin <akuk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7738449.html (no Google allowed)
> 
> I only read the abstract and found "pathstar" mentioned in references.
> - From a Bell Labs Technical Journal, no less. :)

No, it mentioned pathstarT, with a 't' at the end. Or is that a typo?

Apparently the same article is mentioned here:
https://www.google.com/patents/US7170854 (okay, some Google allowed)

I can't read it because Google thinks I'm a robot and won't perform the
search for me.

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Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-19 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 21:31:43 +0200
>Aleksandar Kuktin <akuk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> >On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:15:13 -0700
> >Skip Tavakkolian <9...@9netics.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw
> > > one a year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> > 
> > are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?
> 
> I seem to remember IL being more complex than just a UDP with counters
> and ACK, which is what I'm - sort of - looking for.
> 
> But I'll look into it, it's worth it.

TFTP?

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Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-19 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:15:13 -0700
>Skip Tavakkolian <9...@9netics.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw
> > one a year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> 
> are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?

I seem to remember IL being more complex than just a UDP with counters
and ACK, which is what I'm - sort of - looking for.

But I'll look into it, it's worth it.

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Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-19 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:14:46 +0100
>Charles Forsyth <charles.fors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 18 October 2015 at 23:43, Aleksandar Kuktin <akuk...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
> > BAM! I run straight into RUDP. "Designed at Bell Labs for the Plan 9
> > operating system". I just skimmed through the (expired) IETF draft
> > from 1999 and I honestly think the design might be too much. It
> > looks like it's almost completely like TCP, but without segmenting
> > and possibly
> >
> 
> The Cisco RUDP defined in the IETF draft is not the rudp in the Plan
> 9 code. Both use a UDP shell to carry their packets, but the two RUDP
> headers are different.

There are two RUDPs?  O.o

> The protocols seem to be unrelated. The Cisco one is derived from an
> earlier BBN one,
> and all three had the tcp-like  SYN/ACK/RST flags. Plan 9's does not.

That's a good thing. The less flags and states, the better.

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Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-19 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Sun, 18 Oct 2015 16:59:44 -0700
>erik quanstrom  wrote:
>
> On Sun Oct 18 16:16:59 PDT 2015, 9...@9netics.com wrote:
> > > Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw
> > > one a year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!
> > 
> > are you looking for Internet Link (IL)?
> 
> there's also rudp, which if i have gotten my second-hand stories
> straight, was used on the pathstar backplane.
> 
> - erik

You mean the telecom stuff?

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7738449.html (no Google allowed)

I only read the abstract and found "pathstar" mentioned in references.
- From a Bell Labs Technical Journal, no less. :)

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Re: [9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-18 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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Hash: SHA1

>On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 00:43:56 +0200
>Aleksandar Kuktin <akuk...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
> year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!

BTW, the purpose of the exercise is to identify possible candidates for
transporting VNC, and that can be implemented in FPGA fabric. As in "the
entire stack".

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[9fans] RUDP and/or others

2015-10-18 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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Hi all.

So there I was, shopping around for reliable datagram protocols when
BAM! I run straight into RUDP. "Designed at Bell Labs for the Plan 9
operating system". I just skimmed through the (expired) IETF draft from
1999 and I honestly think the design might be too much. It looks like
it's almost completely like TCP, but without segmenting and possibly
with double checksumming. Seems like overkill.

Anyone know of a leaner reliable datagram protocol? I know I saw one a
year ago, but I just can't remember what it was!

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Re: [9fans] Web Gardens

2015-10-12 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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>On Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:57:16 +1300
>Andrew Simmons  wrote:
>
> As a diversion from the discussion of the existential essence of
> Javascript, could I ask the group for a view on the meaning of the
> term "Web Garden"? I was just asked about this in a job interview.
> Supplementary question - how would you implement a Web Garden in
> Plan9?

How do you call isolated ecosystems put up by the big players
(Facebook, Tweeter and such) that hold all the data within and disallow
linking to that data from the outside? I seem to remember "Web Garden"
was used, but it could also be a "Walled Garden"..

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[9fans] Old sources

2015-09-27 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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Does anyone know where to find the THIRD edition of Plan 9? I tried
reading the book with the source commentary, as suggested here a week
or two back, but I have the fourth edition. The difference in code is
sufficiently large that I can't follow the book.

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Re: [9fans] Old sources

2015-09-27 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

>On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 12:49:54 +0200
>David du Colombier <0in...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Does anyone know where to find the THIRD edition of Plan 9? I tried
> > reading the book with the source commentary, as suggested here a
> > week or two back, but I have the fourth edition. The difference in
> > code is sufficiently large that I can't follow the book.
> 
> The sources corresponding to the "Notes on the Plan 9 3rd edition
> Kernel" book used to be available on
> http://plan9.escet.urjc.es/plan9jun.tgz.
> 
> However, this server seems to be down. I've just uploaded my copy:
> 
> http://mirror.9grid.fr/mirror.9grid.fr/plan9jun.tgz
> 

Great many thanks! :)

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Re: [9fans] Pre-ANSI C

2015-09-11 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
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Hash: SHA1

>On Fri, 11 Sep 2015 14:16:49 +0530
>Ramakrishnan Muthukrishnan  wrote:
>
> Not really about Plan 9, but I found this blog post and the comments
> (there is even a comment from Rob Pike) very interesting and thought
> of sharing here.
> 
> 
> 

Which reminds me - I should read Plan 9's source. At least the kernel.

Any pointer about where to start? I tried with the boot code, but it
jumped around a lot and I lost track of it.

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Re: [9fans] inquiry about project sponsorship outside GSoC

2014-09-17 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Wed, 17 Sep 2014 17:33:36 -0400
Caleb Malchik cmalc...@gmail.com wrote:

 Your role as a sponsor would look something like this: fall semester
 (between now and mid-December) you would help define requirements and
 a deliverables timeline, and approve design documents. In the spring
 you would monitor progress and optionally provide support to the
 implementation.

They used to call this mentoring.

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Re: [9fans] Announcing The Virtual Plan 9 Server Cookbook

2014-08-27 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Wed, 27 Aug 2014 15:16:04 -0400
David L. Craig dlc@gmail.com wrote:

 This is the publication I wished I had had several
 months ago, so I decided to write it.  With hundreds
 of screen shots and a few choice scripts (the main one
 based on maht's make_cpuauth contribution to Plan 9),
 it walks a UNIX sysadmin of modest experience through
 installing Debian Sid onto an x86_64 box capable of
 full-virtualization and then installing a virtual Bell
 Labs Plan 9 computer therein and transforming it from
 a stand-alone non-networked terminal configuration
 into an Internet-capable cpu/auth server.
 
 This alpha version has all the information needed to
 do this--only the Overview section remains to be
 written.  I would like to get other folks' evaluations
 of the work so it can be improved.  It is released
 under Creative Commons Attribution/Share-Alike and GPL2.
 
 I really hope it is helpful to a lot of people as time
 goes by.
 
 http://dlc.casita.net/~dlc/vp9cb/index.html

I think I'll be using this heavily when I embark on the next leg of my
installing of Plan 9.

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Re: [9fans] The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia?

2014-08-13 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014 09:47:03 -0300
françai s romaper...@gmail.com wrote:

 What are the programming languages ​​that were used to develop the
 Plan9?

A dialect of C. The source code is in /sys/src.

 Probably the Riga Technical University and University of Latvia
 continue teaching coding in binary code, ie, machine language.
 
 I say this because about three years ago the Riga Technical University
 and University of Latvia continued teaching coding in binary code, ie,
 machine language.
 
 The Riga Technical University and University of Latvia made ​​based
 projects  in Plan9 using coding  in binary code?
 
 The developers of Plan9 think there was no point in coding in binary
 code three years ago as they did or make the Riga Technical University
 and University of Latvia?

Is there a reason Riga Technical University and University of
Latvia are mentioned in every sentence? What exactly is the purpose of
this e-mail? Advertising? Fishing? Is this an automated shotgun
e-mail designed to extract some information from the 'Net? An AI test?

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Re: [9fans] My 9pi box

2014-08-11 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Sun, 10 Aug 2014 08:35:37 +0900
kokam...@hera.eonet.ne.jp wrote:

  Question: does the box drive the screen? If so, what did you use to
  connect the screen to it? HDMA? USB maybe? :) 
 
 It's connected through HDMI with high-vision mode to 20 TV..
 TV may not be good for PC programming, because it is desighned
 to watch from a distans.  The screen is orthodic vertical, and
 my eyes are little bit higher position.
 However, it's very good for short time writing.
 I recommend you to use HDMI, it's easy.
 
 Kenji


Thanks!

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Re: [9fans] My 9pi box

2014-08-11 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 19:31:31 +0200
hiro 23h...@gmail.com wrote:

 I guess you're not aware the rpi has a hdmi port?

Ooops! By bad. I didn't realize I was looking at a Raspberry in
disguise.

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Re: [9fans] My 9pi box

2014-08-09 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 14:27:02 +0900
kokam...@hera.eonet.ne.jp wrote:

 I forgot it to attach.
 
 Kenji

I like this.

Question: does the box drive the screen? If so, what did you use to
connect the screen to it? HDMA? USB maybe? :) I've been on the lookout
for USB screens for a while, in order to make something like you did
(but not in a can, necessarily).

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Re: [9fans] Cross-compiling Plan 9

2014-07-13 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Tue, 8 Jul 2014 02:10:37 +0200
Aleksandar Kuktin akuk...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Mon, 7 Jul 2014 17:41:35 +
 Yoann Padioleau p...@fb.com wrote:
 
  Hi,
  
  I was able to cross compile Plan9 from MacOS which is probably quite
  similar to cross compiling from Linux.
  
  The first thing was to compile the plan9 C compilers
  on MacOS. I used https://code.google.com/p/ken-cc/ because this fork
  of the Plan9 C compilers are easier to compile on non-plan9 OSes.
  
  Then I installed plan9port which contained a few utilities that are
  used when compiling the plan9 kernel (/bin/rc, /bin/mk).
  
  [snip]
 
 Ken-cc may be the missing piece of the puzzle for me, however it is a
 little too early to tell. Right now I'm working on compiling the
 kernel which SHOULD, theoretically, be easier then userspace since
 the kernel is far, far more hermetic than the userspace.
 
 Anyhow, I'll be sure to post the method for doing it, should I
 eventually end up victorious.

Well, I managed to make the kernel and almost everything else I touched
compile. No idea yet on whether it will run. But libscribble is giving
me a really hard time. There is a bunch of #pragmas about incomplete
data structures that the compiler (8c from Kens suite) doesn't
understand and those are holding me back.

As for the rest, the biggest problem is a bug in Kens compiler from
code.google.com. There is a header, a.out.h, which contains a
definition/declaration (I always forget what is a definition and what is
a declaration) of a structure called Sym that is different in the two
header files. As a consequence, the compiler and assembler produce
object files whose symbol tables the archiver is unable to read. As a
consequence of that, the libraries are useless. The solution to this
was to delete the copy in src/libmach/a.out.h, and rebuild everything
with the other copy.

Since I am building everything on Unix, and am using the Unix shell
(bash in my case), I had to rewrite much of the mkfile rules,
specifically ones that deal with loops, conditionals and substituting
outputs from commands. Because all those rules are simple, this was a
trivial task. I also needed to change sed programs embedded all over
the place to be understandable to my systems sed.

Probably the biggest problem was rewriting several programs from the
aux/ directory (/sys/src/cmd/aux/). These are written to be run on Plan
9 and porting them to Unix had to be done by hand. Again, since they
are for the most part simple, it wasn't much of a chore. It just had to
be done.

And that wraps up this weeks events in my attempt to compile and run
Plan 9.

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[9fans] Cross-compiling Plan 9

2014-07-05 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
Hello list!

Are there any pointers or short instructions or a HOWTO or something
similar on the art of cross-compiling Plan 9 from Linux?

I've recently decided to start using Plan 9 and, because I am a fucking
lunatic, I've decided to download the source code (from
plan9.bell-labs.com) and compile it to a complete system.

Also, since I have decided to piggy-back the booting of Plan 9 on
Linux, where exactly in the source am I supposed to look to figure out
how to boot Plan 9? My plan is to hack Linux and replace the part when
it starts init with a routine to load Plan 9 and pass control to it.

I do all of this because I am dead-set on porting Plan 9 to my
smartphone-turned-handheld computer. Because I'm not sure I won't brick
the device if I muck with the bootloader, I have to go this way since I
have proven that I am capable of changing the kernel without bricking
the device.

-- 
Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih.
All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them.
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You don't need an AI for a robot uprising.
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Re: [9fans] So, why Plan 9?

2010-10-12 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Mon, 11 Oct 2010 13:45:02 +, Bruce Ellis wrote:

 Very succinct, and better than I could do 'til the coffee kicks in.
 
 You could have pointed out that the entire source tree is smaller than
 the gcc manual.

WAT!?!

Ahem.. pardon my manners please, but this caught me completely of guard.

I learned of Plan 9's existence a few years back, when I was finishing my 
Linux from scratch and was out looking if there is a way to get something 
even better than a Linux. I've been lurking in this group for quite a 
while now, hoping to maybe find some easy way to merry the two systems.

Speaking of which, is there a way to do the opposite of Plan 9 in 
userspace? That is, a way to use Unix-specific programs and libraries on 
Plan 9?

Basically, this is what has been holding me back. I would like to switch 
to Plan 9, but still have all of my Linux programs and libraries 
available. I also dread using any virtualizators, QEMUs, Xens and other 
stuff; not because I find them hard to use, but because I don't want to 
waste CPU cycles on compatibility layers.

Is there already an implemented.. POSIX compatibility layer, library, or 
something? Hopefully, something that is very, very thin??
Maybe?



Re: [9fans] So, why Plan 9?

2010-10-12 Thread Aleksandar Kuktin
On Tue, 12 Oct 2010 11:27:45 +, Steve Simon wrote:

 Is there already an implemented.. POSIX compatibility layer, library,
 or something? Hopefully, something that is very, very thin??
 
 http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/ape.pdf
 
 this will allow you to recompile nice clean ansi posix code. compiling
 gnu code may require more work as much of it is rather tied to gcc and
 glib.
 
 getting configure to work (the importability system) is a pain but Fede
 has a nice script which can do much of the work for you - see the 9fans
 archives http://9fans.net/archive
 
 -Steve

Thanks guys. Looking forward to trying it.

Ofcourse, since I'm short of free time right now (ah.. the age-old 
problem), I'll be playing with all this a bit later.