Re: [9fans] Trouble compiling "Hello, world"

2022-08-01 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Tue, Aug 02, 2022 at 05:38:39AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> It's a shame that the SDF wiki
> (https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=vps_-_plan_9_9front) returns a
> missing page.

Looks like it just got moved:
https://wiki.sdf.org/doku.php?id=plan_9_9front

khm

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Re: [9fans] 9front, git and mercurial.

2022-05-18 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Wed, May 18, 2022 at 02:12:47PM -0400, Frank D. Engel, Jr. wrote:
> Related question I can't seem to track down an answer to:
> 
> I have a 9front cluster which was set up back when Mercurial was used, 
> so that is what sysupdate is looking for.
> 
> I finally realized that I am no longer seeing updates because 9front 
> switched to git.
> 
> How does one go about upgrading an existing 9front install to pull 
> updates from git instead of hg?

sysupdate should have seamlessly moved you to git.  what mercurial
revision is your stuff currently running?  

this will be a longish debugging session so for the rest of it we should
probably move to the 9front mailing list, since 9fans at large might not
appreciate the traffic.

khm

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

2022-03-22 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Wed, Mar 23, 2022 at 12:00:02AM +, Stuart Morrow wrote:
> 
> I'm aware. I meant the intended use by the people who designed it. I
> wouldn't call a number pad a pointing device just because it can be
> used as one.
> 

Apologies to Ted Selker, but it's a poor tool that only functions in
accordance with its designer's intent.  I wouldn't call a number pad a
pointing device either, but I see no need for a Cardassian "there are
two buttons" reality-denial session for a pointing device that clearly
has three.

To update my previous reply on this thread, the left mouse button of my
LTRAC trackball suffered from a failed microswitch.  While shopping
around for replacement parts I stumbled across a vendor that carries
several three-or-more button pointing devices.  Content warning for the
faint of heart:  the following page refers to non-mice as 'mouse
products.'  https://www.fentek-ind.com/ergmouse.htm

And for the record, P.I. Engineering will not sell spare parts for the
LTRAC units, but will send you links to Digikey pages to order your own.

khm

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

2022-03-22 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Tue, Mar 22, 2022 at 11:09:24PM +, Stuart Morrow wrote:
> On 01/02/2022, Ben Hancock  wrote:
> > as well but have yet to become adept at the trackpoint. Do you find
> > you're able to sweep lines as easily using it in acme as with a physical
> > mouse?
> 
> A trackpoint isn't a real three-button mouse by Acme's standards. "A
> real three-button mouse" is something that supports one-to-one
> finger-to-button. A trackpoint is a two-button mouse with an
> additional scroll button. It's designed for Windows and OS/2.

That scroll button nonsense is a function of the Windows driver. On all
Thinkpads the buttons present as a normal three-button mouse, with
left, middle, and right-click.  Using a better operating system, or
failing to install the Trackpoint drivers, leads to normal
functionality.  

This is also true of trackpoint-laden keyboards with the sole exception 
of the Lenovo "ThinkPad Compact Keyboard with Trackpoint" family of
USB/Bluetooth models, and thanks to aiju a firmware fix is available to
repair some of those.

> Plus, trackpoint users will often accidentally type 'u', which on Plan
> 9 means you lose what's in your snarf buffer.

I have never seen a trackpoint user accidentally type 'u', and this is
coming from someone who has used trackpoints as their primary pointing
device from the late 1990s until about six months ago.  How exactly did
you come to this conclusion?  I wonder if this is unique to a particular
model?  I have at least one of every IBM, Lexmark, or Dolch produced
trackpoint keyboard, and I'd love to try to reproduce.


khm

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Re: [9fans] licence question

2022-02-04 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Fri, Feb 04, 2022 at 09:30:26AM -0600, Kent R. Spillner wrote:
> 
> In your experience do students appreciate being told what's best for them?  ;)
> 

In my experience needing to be told what's best for them is the defining
characteristic of a student

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

2022-01-28 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 08:14:44PM +1300, umbrati...@prosimetrum.com wrote:
> > small ones seem to me like a pain to point, and the large ones look
> > like hard to make chords with the big ball in the middle. Could you
> > share your experience?
> 
> I use a Kensington Expert which I guess falls into the big
> ball in the middle category.  Honestly, most of the time I
> click/chord with my left hand on the thinkpad's trackpad
> buttons while rolling the ball with my right hand, but
> chording with the trackball buttons is also fine.  The
> scrollwheel thing is pretty nice too.

My pointing device on the desktop is an L-TRAC trackball, currently sold
by xkeys.com.  It's definitely in the 'big ball in the middle' category
but the buttons are mostly huge enough to make up for it -- I've never
found myself straining to reach anything, but I will admit the extension
ports allowing more buttons to be scattered around the desktop is a nice
bonus.  I don't recommend the LED-lit models, as they're brighter than
the goddamn sun, and trackball itself is translucent so it just shines
like a beacon.  I replaced my ball with a 9-ball to mitigate the glare.

khm

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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

2022-01-27 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Fri, Jan 28, 2022 at 03:47:48PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> I have one mouse still in the original unopened box, just to be safe. The
> label reads
> 
> 31P7405 Lenovo Scrollpoint Mouse Model MO098OA
> 
> And I have now opened it to be sure, and it is the true blue (literally)
> 3-button version. It is labeled Lenovo, although the ones I use are all
> labeled IBM.
> 
> -rob

Lenovo wasn't as much of a stickler for nomenclature as IBM; I ran into
all kinds of label variants -- when I worked at IBM I used to snag these
when I could.  They were also labeled 'ThinkPlus Optical Mouse' for a
while, when bundled with a computer.  Useful information for keeping
them alive can be found here:  http://www.ibmfiles.com/pages/scrollpoint.htm

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

2022-01-27 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:39:09PM -0800, Kurt H Maier via 9fans wrote:
> The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
> with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
> Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.

I should specify:  the Scrollpoint mouse technically only has two
buttons and a round pointing device in between.  The Scrollpoint II is
the one Rob describes (with either a blue or red oval pointing stick
behind a middle mouse button), and it was available in both optical and
mechanical configurations.  The Scrollpoint Pro ergonomic mouse was also
available in both optical and mechanical setups; the mechanical version
is absolutely miserable, but the optical version was great.

khm


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Re: [9fans] acme and sam - mouse suggestions?

2022-01-27 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 07:48:15PM -0800, Ben Hancock wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Acme has become my main text editor and I'm in the market for a good 
> mouse with a decent middle click (i.e. B2). If product recommendations 
> aren't eschewed on the list, would fellow acme and/or sam users be 
> willing to share some mice suggestions? There seem to be a real dearth 
> of options that have a true middle button these days.
> 
> I'm currently using an Elecom mouse designed for use with CAD programs 
> that has a true middle button, and it does a serviceable job. But it 
> feels cheap and I fear it will break with much more use. I also recently 
> tried a gaming mouse -- a Roccat KAIN 100 Aimo -- after reading reviews 
> that its scroll wheel had a decent click. But while it's quite a nice 
> mouse, the middle click requires more pressure than I'd prefer.
> 
> Many thanks in advance!
> 
> - Ben

Many of us have had success with the Contour mice, both their
soon-discontinued 'Contour' model, available in various sizes, and their
'Unimouse' adjustable model.  HP model DY651A is a cheaper option,
but it's getting hard to find.  The Scrollpoint Rob mentioned was made
with both IBM and Lenovo branding, and was also available in a sculpted
Pro model with a thumb-actuated fourth button.

For a portable option, Lenovo sells a convertible 'Yoga' series of
wireless mice, which have two mechanical buttons and a touchpad-style
scrolling section in between; on all of these that I've tested, tapping
the scroll panel sends a middle click, and they support tap-and-hold as
you would expect.  I haven't tested some of the newer ones, and there's
always the danger some product manager got 'creative' instead of just
selling a useful product.

The Evoluent VerticalMouse series has three mechanical buttons plus a
scroll wheel between buttons 1 and 2.

Finally, the Logitech G series of gaming mice don't have separate middle
click -- they use the wheel for that -- but they frequently have other
buttons which can be configured to serve as button 2, and the
configuration software writes this setting to the device, so you don't
need weird driver support when you plug it into a real computer.

khm

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Re: [9fans] licence question

2022-01-27 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Thu, Jan 27, 2022 at 08:14:25PM -0500, ibrahim via 9fans wrote:
> Thanks for your hint ori,
> 
> After searching for Copying, Copyright, Licence I found these problematic 
> commands (libs) :
> 
> Xen (9f)
> diff (9f,l9)
> patch (9f, l9)
> ghostscript (9f, l9)
> mp3dec (9f, l9)
> lzip (l9)
> 
> 9f ... 9font
> l9 ... legacy9
> 
> I'm not sure how problematic icclib could be. Clause 4 could be dangerous 
> regarding ... derived from based on ... 

None of these prohibit redistribution.  Feel free to delete them from
your copy.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

2022-01-24 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 06:55:27PM +0100, Alexandr Babic wrote:
> >> I agree.  This mailing list is turning out to be a bit too fucking bizarro 
> >> for my taste.
> > If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  Nobody owes you a
> > safe space, snowflake.
> 
> khm, you are using snowflake here in wrong context :-(
> 
> first letter from original author was snowflakish,
> there's no need to use words like "not cool political views, support 
> oppression, amazing and full of rainbow love"
> in technical forum.
> 
> document "intro to OS abstractions" is great and  i don't what are political 
> views of author.
> so tell me who is a snowflake now :-D

definitely you.  Someone wants to write a book about a technical topic,
and all you and that other idiot can talk about are the motivations,
because you are intellectually incapable of contributing to technical
work.  

If you don't want to or are incapable of helping with the book, just
archive/delete the email and move on, instead of pissing and moaning
about the rest.

I swear, you snowflakes are the most entitled people.  Not only does
everyone have to talk about what YOU want to talk about, but they cannot
deviate from the topic EVEN SLIGHTLY or you start cramping up.  Get a
life.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Sponsoring a new Intro book by the Flan 9 Poundation

2022-01-24 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Mon, Jan 24, 2022 at 05:38:19AM -0700, Duke Normandin wrote:
> 
> 
> >> On 1/24/22, Alexandr Babic  wrote:
> >> 
> >> hello.
> >> 
> >> please don't put any politics here, everyone has own political opinion, but
> >> discuss it elsewhere.
> >> sub-word "trans" should be used only inside "transpiler" word when talking
> >> about computers :-) :-)
> >> 
> >> thanx, a.b.
> 
> I agree.  This mailing list is turning out to be a bit too fucking bizarro 
> for my taste. 
> 

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.  Nobody owes you a
safe space, snowflake.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?

2022-01-18 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 01:54:02PM -0500, Antonio Barrones wrote:
> Linux distros are not only "Linux", they are GNU/Linux.  Linux is only the 
> kernel of a GNU/Linux system (a distro). Android is not a distro because they 
> don't have GNU, but Android is "Linux" because it has Linux as kernel. 

Please keep FSF FUD off this list.  Alpine is a Linux distro and doesn't
rely on GNU.  There are, and always have been, several such.  Copyright
cultists riding on coattails notwithstanding, there isn't much point in
belaboring such terminology, since Plan 9 is not typically distributed
in modular packages, but as an integrated system, and GNU cruft doesn't
readily build on it anyway.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Despite being called a fork, is 9front similar to how Linux distros work?

2022-01-17 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans
On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 12:36:19AM +0100, Sigrid Solveig Haflínudóttir wrote:
> 
> I'm afraid you got it wrong. Community is mostly centered around
> 9front. One of the reasons is that it actually works and is still
> being developed and used by many. Plan 9 is dead, 9front lives on.
> There is also software developed outside of 9front git repo, by people
> who use 9front: http://only9fans.com
> Whether some "secret community" decides to "accept" (or not) 9front as
> "official" doesn't matter.
> 

And part of the reason it doesn't matter is that there ARE active users
of non-9front Plan 9, and they all have reasons (some unique, some
shared) to do things that way, and when good code shows up, everyone
benefits, no matter which flavor of Plan 9 they wrote it for.
Regardless of other interplay, that shared interest is what makes up a
community, and there doesn't need to be complete uniformity of thought
for that to be both real and valuable.

khm

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Re: [9fans] OAuth2 in factotum

2021-08-18 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 02:15:00PM +0300, Demetrius Iatrakis wrote:
> This is a preview of OAuth2 support in factotum, as part of this year's GSoC:
> https://github.com/Mitsos101/plan9front/pull/1
> 
> Installation, on 9front:
> 
> git/clone https://github.com/Mitsos101/plan9front plan9front-oauth
> cd plan9front-oauth
> git/branch oauth
> bind sys/include /sys/include
> @{cd sys/src/libauth && mk install}
> @{cd sys/src/cmd/auth && mk install}
> @{cd sys/src/cmd/webfs && mk install}

Works on my machine!  Have you been using it in the wild at all?  I'm
just testing it against a local set of toy programs, but it's working.

Thanks for working on this!

khm

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Re: [9fans] the #cat-v channel has moved to oftc

2021-06-22 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 02:54:22PM -0400, Thaddeus Woskowiak wrote:
> 
> This reminds me: is the #plan9 channel on oftc the new home of #plan9?
> 

The topic in #plan9 on oftc directs users to libera, and has done since
Freenode began to implode.  If there's some way I can make this more 
clear, please let me know.


khm

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Re: [9fans] 9front, git and mercurial.

2021-06-14 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 12:48:35PM -0500, Tony Mendoza wrote:
> Quick question (or maybe not), but how are these being hosted?   Is this done 
> on a cloud provider vm platform?   Or is this being done in a traditional DC 
> using real hardware?
> 
> Just curious to know how this is being done because I would like to do 
> something similar. 
> 
> Cheers!

9front's stuff is hosted on a variety of platforms.  Some of it,
including the code.9front.org repo, consists of VMs that I host on
colocated hardware.  git.9front.org is elsewhere at the moment, and I'm
in the middle of deploying faster hardware to hopefully provide a
longer-term home to more of the services.  Other pieces live in
commercial VM providers like vultr, linode, ramnode, and so forth.  A
few of these providers either offer 9front as a deployment option or
allow you to upload your own iso for provisioning.

khm

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Re: [9fans] recover(4) go rewrite

2021-05-11 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 09:20:23PM +0200, k...@a-b.xyz wrote:
> >  I needed recover(4) on windows, I rewrote most if it in go.
> 
> Where can the original version be found?

At /n/sources/contrib/paurea/recover4e.tgz

paper at /n/sources/contrib/rsc/recover/recover.pdf


khm

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Re: [9fans] problem with installing plan9 from USB disk image

2021-03-26 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:20:44AM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> The replacement of legacy BIOS with UEFI had two consequences:
> 
>  1. Dual booting is not possible


This is false.  Dual-booting works just fine with UEFI; tools like
efibootmgr make it trivial and I do it all the time.  It's much nicer
than having to work with grub.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Transfer of Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation

2021-03-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 09:03:58PM +0100, David du Colombier wrote:
> > The 4e and 4e-latest tarballs are identical.  Is this intentional?
> 
> This should be fixed now. Thanks for reporting.

Thanks for the fix.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Transfer of Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation

2021-03-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 06:06:49AM -0700, a...@9srv.net wrote:
> 
> The historical releases are available right now at:
> https://p9f.org/dl/

The 4e and 4e-latest tarballs are identical.  Is this intentional?

Thanks either way,
khm

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Re: [9fans] Transfer of Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation

2021-03-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 06:06:49AM -0700, a...@9srv.net wrote:
> We are thrilled to announce that Nokia has transferred the copyright of
> Plan 9 to the Plan 9 Foundation. This transfer applies to all of the
> Plan 9 from Bell Labs code, from the earliest days through their final
> release.
> 
> The most exciting immediate effect of this is that the Plan 9 Foundation
> is making the historical 1st through 4th editions of Plan 9 available
> under the terms of the MIT license. These are the releases as they
> existed at the time, with minimal changes to reflect the above.

Good work, and good decision.  

khm

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Re: [9fans] APL

2021-02-21 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Feb 21, 2021 at 02:31:13PM -0800, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) 
wrote:
> Failing that, does anybody have a copy of the original source
> kicking around?  Since the virus is going to keep me locked up
> for a few more months yet, porting would help pass the time :-)

Michael Cain's code is available in sigapl's archive.  It's a cleaned-up 
version of the Purdue version that came with 2.11BSD, which is in all 
kinds of archives.  It's pretty much a direct descendent of the code
you're describing.

There was a TUHS thread that touched on this some time ago:
https://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/2014-July/006414.html

I think your best shot is Mark's copy of apl.tar:
http://maxhost.org/other/apl.tar 
but there's not much provenance info there (aside from the presence of a
makefile.pdp).

khm 

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Re: [9fans] Whats the default font in Acme?

2021-02-17 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 11:38:47AM -0800, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> 
> You can use bdf2subf [1] with my hidpi vga font [2] to get this.  Maybe
> someone already has?  If so, I'd be happy to add it to the VGA pile.

sam-d has done this.  A hidpi version of the VGA font ready for Plan 9
can be downloaded from http://sciops.net/downloads/vga/hugevga.tgz

Once unpacked under /lib/font/bit/, you can set
font=/lib/font/bit/hugevga/unicode.font to use it.

khm


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Re: [9fans] Whats the default font in Acme?

2021-02-17 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 07:14:36PM +, sirjofri wrote:
> 
> 17.02.2021 20:06:00 bomb...@gmx.net:
> > And is there a version for high dpi displays?
> 
> On 9front (and maybe on 9legacy?) It's the font you specify with font=, 
> which is vga by default.

You can use bdf2subf [1] with my hidpi vga font [2] to get this.  Maybe
someone already has?  If so, I'd be happy to add it to the VGA pile.

1 - http://plan9.stanleylieber.com/src/bdf2subf.tgz
2 - http://sciops.net/downloads/vga/u_vga32.bdf

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 Foundation

2021-02-10 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 09, 2021 at 11:40:18PM -0800, Anthony Sorace wrote:
> 
> More information can be found on our web site, http://p9f.org/.
> 

"That effort stalled, mainly due to the treatment of software-focused
non-profit organizations under U.S. regulations at the time."

What does this mean?

khm

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Re: [9fans] 9Front / cwfs64x and hjfs storage

2020-12-29 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 08:53:55AM +, sirjofri wrote:
> 
> Then removing WORM1, storing it as backup or reformat it as a new WORM4:
> 
...
> Is something like that possible? If not, it still could be an inspiration 
> for ori's new filesystem, maybe?

If he implements this and the resulting filesystem is not called
Oriborous I will be extraordinarily, possibly fatally, disappointed.

khm

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Re: [9fans] mice

2020-11-27 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 06:22:27PM -0500, fi...@lojanci.org wrote:
> what about 2-1 chording, is B2 working fine?

Yes, it's fully HID-compliant.

khm

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Re: [9fans] mice

2020-11-27 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Nov 27, 2020 at 06:02:13PM -0500, fi...@lojanci.org wrote:
> Anybody has tried Unimouse on plan9port/linux?

I have.  I don't use it much these days since it's in my office and the
plague has me working from home.  It works fine -- what do you need to
know?

khm

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Re: [9fans] Flakey DNS server

2020-10-07 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Oct 07, 2020 at 09:15:01AM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> I suggest taking a look at https://www.osmio.ch/
> 

I suggest not looking at https://www.osmio.ch/ instead.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

2020-08-30 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 09:29:01PM -0400, Leonardo wrote:
> > User-friendliness is difficult to establish precisely.
> Yes, it's an abstract and subjective thing, but on average we know what is.

No we don't.  We like to claim we do, but really we're just pretending
prior training is intuition.  It's fine if you want software that works
the way you're used to, but let's not pretend it's natural law, please.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan 9 in Brazil

2020-08-29 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Aug 29, 2020 at 01:43:49PM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> On 8/29/20 1:25 PM, Leonardo wrote:
> > I really don't understand why Plan 9 has not been adopted. Legacy base?
> 
> By giving a lot of control to the user Plan 9 and its derivatives 
> undermine the Silicon Valley business model, which is built upon 
> breaking into your information home, taking your personal intellectual 
> property, and putting it on their balance sheets as a money making 
> asset. In other words, burglary and theft.

I'm with you on the topic of the ethical void rampant in a lot of SV
tech companies, but this take is off the mark.  SV businesses trade on
convenience; it's only late-stage multinationals that attempt to
leverage monopoly to remove user control.  Fortunately by that stage
they're poorly enough run that internal competition leads to senescense
and new challengers introduce choice again.  It happened to Nokia,
IBM, Microsoft, and it's currently happening to Google, but all of them
got to that late stage by selling stuff people wanted, not alone by
being jerks.

The new model is to burn venture capital to get that market control, 
but the same principal applies:  by the time you're big enough to exert
sufficient force to exploit a monopoly, you're sufficiently large that
internal competition prevents you from operating efficiently.  

I think AT's sense of entitlement regarding their IP, combined with
the fact that Plan 9 was never presented as a consumer-facing product
(it was a research platform) had more to do with any lack of uptake.  In
other words, had it proved popular, the vultures would have arrived and
done the same things they do on most platforms.  In this case, better
roosts had appeared by the time Plan 9 became something the vultures 
considered to be worth exploiting.

I am grateful to the people who put effort into letting us have the code
regardless of whatever we might imagine their motivations are.  I'm glad
we have access and that the access we have lets us shoot for whatever
targets align with our priorities.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Who is behind 9p.io

2020-05-07 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, May 07, 2020 at 11:25:57PM -0400, freen...@gmail.com wrote:
> should we maybe mirror it as a WWW site on github.io for safekeeping?

Who is "we"?

khm

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Re: [9fans] Plan9 and Pine

2020-04-14 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Apr 14, 2020 at 04:20:19PM -0400, Chris McGee wrote:
> Hello All,
> 
> I'm not sure how many on here are aware of the Pine SBC's. There are a few
> different variants of those. Now there are even pre-built laptops and a
> phone. There is a plan for a tablet too. https://www.pine64.org/

I have the Pinebook Pro and the Pinephone.  Both are fun toys of no real
value.  The Pinebook Pro is almost good, but like all touchpad-only
laptops, it has an absolutely unusable mouse builtin.  It's even worse
than other touchpads, and it's rare for me to be able to differentiate
them.  The phone lasts anywhere from forty minutes to five hours to a
charge cycle, depending on the phase of the moon.

The best feature they've got is the ability to output serial over the
headphone jack, with an appropriately-wired cable, which I also have.

> I wonder for example if it might spark some more interest for people to try
> Plan 9 if they knew that there is a source of inexpensive and standardized
> hardware and things work mostly out of the box.

There is already a source of inexpensive and standardized hardware.  If
people won't try Plan 9 on an x86 machine they can get for $50 on eBay, why
would they try it on a $200 laptop with a weird processor?  Regardless, I'm 
willing to run whatever tests might be helpful for people interested in doing 
this development work.  I have all the gear.

> Perhaps this is an opportunity for the Plan 9 community to think what it
> would mean to run in a phone form factor.

https://github.com/floren/hellaphone
and
https://github.com/bhgv/Inferno-OS-bhgv

may interest you.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

2019-11-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Nov 24, 2019 at 08:34:32AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> We just got a mouthful from sl and you about the lack of explanation
> for the state  of the various plan 9 "distributions". It all smacks of
> expecting Da Vinci to update the Mona Lisa because somebody would
> prefer a high-rise landscape in the background and because someone
> actually did photoshop the Mona Lisa in that guise, but was not
> accepted as the most significant contributor to the painting.

I'm not really following the art analogy here, but nothing I've said on
this list is new.  It's all documented either on 9front.org or (more
frequently) in the manual, which comes with the operating system.  The
9front ISO also contains the complete mercurial history of 9front, but
does not include or refer to the 'ports' repo. 

Most of the developers of 9front don't use (or even like) the 'ports' 
repository.  As far as I know the software in it works on any Plan 9
system.  Regardless, I'll work with its maintainers to clarify the
non-relationship in the README file.

If you have any other suggestions for improving the state of things, let
me know.  

If I'm honest, I suspect most of 9fans doesn't really give a shit about
most of these issues.  If anyone did, they probably would have said
something before now, or done something to ameliorate any of them.
Instead, they only seem to show up when someone gets mad about something
else and then decides to air unrelated grievances -- which is a shame, 
because the sooner they're voiced the easier it is to fix things.  I'm
sure the performative outrage is much more gratifying in the moment.

If anyone wants anything fixed, I'm available for that.  If I have to
wait until someone whatabouts something else, that's fine too, it's just
slower.  Either way, I'll try.

khm


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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

2019-11-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 04:35:25PM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote:
> The upstream version of Mercurial in the 9front ports collection is
> based on my work, not bichued's:
> https://code.9front.org/hg/ports/file/5f994209e142/dev-vcs/mercurial/mkfile
> 

That repo is run by 9front users; I just host it.  That's why the
contact point is mveety in the repo listing.  9front doesn't ship any of
that code.  

> The amount of work wasn't much, but if you're going to dredge up
> ancient history, at least be accurate:

I wasn't aware I was dredging anything up.  You complained about
something, and I went looking to see if I could fix the problem.

This repo is 9front:  http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/

Nothing else is 9front, and all of 9front is in that repo.  Here is the
revision history for the mercurial mkfile in 9front:
http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/log/tip/sys/src/cmd/hg/mkfile

Obviously the people who work on the ports appreciate your effort, but
it is not the same port of mercurial that 9front uses.  I hope this
clears up the issue.

In the future, if anyone is dissatisfied with any of the attribution or
use of any of the code in 9front, please feel free to contact the 9front
mailing list, and I'll do my best to verify & fix any such problems.
Complete archives are available over 9p; there's a script to make
accessing them easier at
https://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/tip/rc/bin/9fs

If you'd prefer, you can also email me directly.

The other repos on that site are either user repos run by random people
who asked me for access, or else various code I've collected around the
internet and did not want to lose.  Some of those repos came from Uriel
and I never have figured out what they are or where they came from.  If
anyone can help with those, I'd appreciate it.

thanks,
khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

2019-11-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
To follow up, 9front mercurial originated from
/n/sources/contrib/bichued/ in 2009.  So this is yet another example of
the complete lack of discoverability being a source of unending
confusion in the Plan 9 community.  How many years have people been
pissed off about "stolen work" or whatever based on similar
misconceptions?  We'll never know.  So much information gets lost, and
it takes concentrated effort to reconstruct the timelines.  A stitch in
time saves nine!

khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

2019-11-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 08:24:41AM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote:
> 
> Indeed. It's interesting that folks from 9front like to tout their
> development as "open" using tools that others in the community have
> developed in addition to their own. To wit, you seem to have gotten
> along quite nicely using the porting work I did for Mercurial in 2012.

I'm not sure what this paragraph means.  Can you clarify?  If you feel
something in 9front is misattributed or should be clarified as your
work, it will take seconds to fix. Can you be specific?  Initial commits
were in 2011, and I don't see much change to the mercurial code until
some CVE fixes in 2014.  I'd be happy to amend the record on your
behalf.

I also don't understand the scare quotes around "open" or the part about
using other people's software.  That's kind of the point of the license.

> (FWIW, I found this response especially entertaining after visiting
> code.9front.org; "Just Send the Money" indeed.)

402 Payment Required is my default response to search engine crawlers
and unpopulated URL paths.  code.9front.org returns that up front to
mitigate search engines, which otherwise beat the shit out of hgweb.
9front infrastructure is all paid for out of pocket by me and sl, so
we're not really interested in spending bandwidth on Google's bottom
line.  the actual hgweb pages (everything under code.9front.org/hg) have
working search functions.

the "just send the money" text is a decade-old joke about support
contracts and how they handle bug reports.   You may note that there is
no actual money-collecting infrastructure presented, because nobody
actually sends the money.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Is the vanilla Plan 9 still alive?

2019-11-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Nov 23, 2019 at 09:29:14AM +, Richard Miller wrote:
> 
> Never mind, I think I can just about see the gist of what you're
> trying to get across.  It's meant to be insulting, right?
> 

It's meant to be a practical answer.  When people come looking for
information, they want to know where the information is.  "It's in six
different places, and the only consistent place to find them is by
asking over and over again on a mailing list, because they move every
couple years" is not an answer that people find much use for.

Generalizations are useful ways to get an overall picture of the
situation.  If you read the documents on 9p.io, none of the people who
currently develop Plan 9 or software for it are even mentioned except in
the contrib index.  

An example of this is how people always describe 9p.io as a mirror.  I'm
grateful it's up, but the first time I found out that people have been
posting source code to it post-mirror is *in this thread*.  How is
anyone supposed to have been able to discover this?  Repeatedly walking
the tree and diffing everything just in case?

Another good example is the kernel changes we only find out about when
someone tries to build a Go beta on 9front, fails, and then we realize
that someone on that team has modified the kernel for the language.  I
opened a ticket and asked for such things to be mentioned in the Go
release notes, and they kindly accomodated me.  But that was not the
default behavior; the default behavior was to assume everyone was
monitoring some mercurial repository on bitbucket.  Those assumptions do
not hold.

As for the "just send the money" joke, the code lives at
code.9front.org/hg/ and the (little-used, despite years of requests for
its existence) wiki is at code.9front.org/wiki/.  The code repos are
documented on 9front.org and the wiki is not advertised beyond the
people who asked for it, but it's open to everyone and contains a
changelog.  

I appreciate the work that people put into Plan 9.  The reality of that
work is that it's scattered, difficult to find, and necessitates years
of monitoring 9fans to identify the people who do it.  That works for
the people involved, and nobody at this point expects it to change, but
it is extremely disconnected from the way people tend to go about
developing software nowadays.  For all practical purposes, sl's answer
is accurate.  Whether it's insulting is really up to the reader.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Request for (constructive?) comments: Plan 9 : 2020

2019-10-24 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Oct 24, 2019 at 09:21:04PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> Hi Erik! Vashon might be ok depending on time of year due to limited
> lodging options. I plan to check the O Space for the workshop. lodging will
> be challenging unless we take over campgrounds and set up yurts :)

AYH could comfortably lodge every active Plan 9 user on earth and has
decent space for meetings.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Anyone have a Plan 9 4th Edition Manual Set...

2019-06-30 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Jun 30, 2019 at 09:32:29AM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> michaelian ennis writes:
> 
> > I found a second edition set on Abe books last year.  They were not
> > inexpensive.
> 
> Sadly, Abebooks became utterly useless several years ago, when it was
> taken over by bots scraping each other listings and adding 5%.

In other words, Amazon bought it.  My copies came from Alibris, and they
were not a set; I bought them each individually for extremely cheap by
searching the ISBNs directly. 

khm



Re: [9fans] supported modern laptops

2019-05-20 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 11:09:10AM -0400, s...@9front.org wrote:
> thinkpad x250 (see related entry in fqa3).
> 
> everything works.  mine is 1920x1080 ips.

Caveat:  you must have an Intel 6235 wifi chip installed for everything
to work under 9front.  It's Lenovo part number 04W3798 and is cheap.
I have two X250s, both 1920x1080, one touchscreen and one without.  The
touchscreen works in 9front.   The T450 is a larger model that can
handle 32GB of ram, where the X250 tops out at 16GB.

The other advantage to these specific models is they do not have stupid
whitelists in the firmware, which means you can buy a 2242-form-factor
m.2 SSD and put it in the WWAN slot.  The machine can boot from the SATA
drive or the m.2 slot, so choosing OpenBSD or 9front is a keystroke at
boot time and you do not have to screw around with chaining bootloaders.

khm



Re: [9fans] user interface questions

2019-04-26 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Apr 26, 2019 at 11:37:46PM +0300, Antonio Barrones wrote:
> There is some snapshots of the broken link
> (http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/TinyGL/) in archive.org, but the link
> to the source is missing. For example:
> https://web.archive.org/web/20080506105341/http://fabrice.bellard.free.fr/TinyGL
> 
> Antonio
> 

It's here now:  https://bellard.org/TinyGL/

khm



Re: [9fans] Regarding GUID partitioning

2019-04-21 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 07:09:27AM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> 
> So, to be clear: is there a Plan 9 supported facility to configure a
> drive according to the more modern, "don't knock it until you've tried
> it" (hmm, some here will have some valid criticism, I'd like to hear
> that) disk partitioning system?
> 

9front supports it and will prompt you to choose between GPT or MBR
during installation.  As far as I know the two main limitations to
9front GPT support are that it can only read (not write) hybrid MBR/GPT
partition tables, and it does not yet have a man page.

The code, from cinap is in the 9front tree at
sys/src/cmd/disk/prep/edisk.c and anyone who wants to take a crack at
producing some documentation is welcome to.

khm



Re: [9fans] The lost (9front) boot menus ...

2019-04-19 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Apr 19, 2019 at 05:33:07PM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
> 
> How about a FOUR second timeout, and some manpage patches?
> 

I object to quadrupling the timeout.  I am old and my eyesight sucks and
one second is perfectly sane.

khm



Re: [9fans] UI design | enhancements.

2019-04-15 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 12:24:44AM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> And we don't have to wait for a Michelangelo to design a perfect UI!

Of course not.  We already have Mike Okuda.

khm



Re: [9fans] Git/fs: Possibly Usable

2019-04-03 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 05:00:15PM -0700, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> 9front maintainers, can anyone speak to technical reasons for creating a
> new version rather than fixing existing? Also, any thoughts on changing the
> name slightly so they can both be on the same system? maybe libAVL?

In 2016 spew wrote libbst, which is a binary search tree library that
supports both AVL and left-leaning red-black tree.  While he was at it
he wrote a faster and simpler avl implementation, and fixed venti and
nupas to work with it.  Since those were the only two things in the tree
that used AVL, nobody really cared if the old implementation went away.

I'm not sure what the advantage is to reintroducing it to 9front (aside
from the desire for zen-garden reliquaries).  The programs that use the
old API can be counted on one hand and fixing them is not difficult.

The question was raised, at the time, if the old one might have been
hand-tuned for some venti-related performance characteristics, but I
don't think anyone followed through on measuring the difference.  If
there are such idiosyncracies in the old code, they were not documented.

khm



Re: [9fans] Fw: Git/fs: Possibly Usable

2019-04-03 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Apr 03, 2019 at 11:43:55AM -0700, Cull wrote:
> 
> Wouldn't BSD (2 clause) be the easiest to reliscence down the road?
> 

The copyright holder can relicense at will.

khm



Re: [9fans] Don't Plan 9 C compiler initialize the rest of member of a?struct?

2019-04-01 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 09:20:43PM -0400, Dan Cross wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019 at 8:36 PM Kurt H Maier  wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 08:26:30PM -0400, Jeremy O'Brien wrote:
> > > On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, at 11:33, Kyohei Kadota wrote:
> > > > Hi, 9fans. I use 9legacy.
> > > >
> > > > About below program, I expected that flags field will initialize to
> > > > zero but the value of flags was a garbage, ex, "f8f7".
> > > > Is this expected?
> > > >
> > > > ```
> > > > #include 
> > > >
> > > > struct option {
> > > > int n;
> > > > char *s;
> > > > int flags;
> > > > };
> > > >
> > > > int
> > > > main(void)
> > > > {
> > > > struct option opt = {1, "test"};
> > > > printf("%d %s %x\n", opt.n, opt.s, opt.flags);
> > > > return 0;
> > > > }
> > > > ```
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > According to C99: "If an object that has automatic storage duration is
> > not initialized explicitly, its value is indeterminate."
> > >
> > > Stack variable == automatic storage duration. This appears to be correct
> > behavior to me.
> > >
> >
> > Can anyone provide the patches 9legacy uses to implement C99 compliance?
> 
> 
> There were actually quite a few of them, mostly done by Geoff Collyer.  The
> compiler sources list contains a list of desiderata in a file called `c99`;
> of course, the plan9 compilers aren't completely compliant (they weren't
> trying to be). Incidentally this file has been carried forward into, for
> example, /sys/src/cmd/cc/c99 in the 9front distribution (and other plan9
> derivatives).
> 
> In the present case, this appears to be a compiler bug. The aforementioned
> reference to n1548 sec 6.7.9 para 10 is incorrect in that there _is_ an
> explicit initializer here. The relevant text in the standard is sec 6.7.9
> pp 16-21, which specifies that in the event that an explicit initializer
> does not completely cover (in a topological sense) the thing it is
> initializing, then the elements not covered shall be initialized as if they
> had _static_ storage duration; that is, they should be zeroed.
> 
> Now as I said, the Plan 9 C compilers aren't explicit C99 compliant. But
> given that the `c99` file describes things related to initializer lists as
> being unneeded because they were already implemented, one may assume it was
> believed that this was covered by c99 behavior. It isn't.
> 
> - Dan C.

So, no?

khm



Re: [9fans] Don't Plan 9 C compiler initialize the rest of member of a?struct?

2019-04-01 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Apr 01, 2019 at 08:26:30PM -0400, Jeremy O'Brien wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 1, 2019, at 11:33, Kyohei Kadota wrote:
> > Hi, 9fans. I use 9legacy.
> > 
> > About below program, I expected that flags field will initialize to
> > zero but the value of flags was a garbage, ex, "f8f7".
> > Is this expected?
> > 
> > ```
> > #include 
> > 
> > struct option {
> > int n;
> > char *s;
> > int flags;
> > };
> > 
> > int
> > main(void)
> > {
> > struct option opt = {1, "test"};
> > printf("%d %s %x\n", opt.n, opt.s, opt.flags);
> > return 0;
> > }
> > ```
> > 
> >
> 
> According to C99: "If an object that has automatic storage duration is not 
> initialized explicitly, its value is indeterminate."
> 
> Stack variable == automatic storage duration. This appears to be correct 
> behavior to me.
> 

Can anyone provide the patches 9legacy uses to implement C99 compliance?


Thanks in advance,
khm



Re: [9fans] microsoft's plan 9 distribution

2019-02-15 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Feb 16, 2019 at 01:48:01AM +0100, hiro wrote:
> https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline/2019/02/15/whats-new-for-wsl-in-windows-10-version-1903/
> 

Just when the linux kids finally gave up on 9p2000.l, and introduced
virtio-fs, Microsoft shows up to ensconce 9p forever.

khm



Re: [9fans] plan9ports : open for discussion here?

2019-01-23 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Jan 24, 2019 at 08:54:16AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> 
> something wrong with the functioning; allowed me to subscribe, but 
> doesn't allow me to post or even unsubscribe saying "i am not a member".
> 

A lot of the plan9port community suffers emotional trauma when
introduced to externally-induced thoughts.  Allow them time to decide
that approving your membership was their idea, and you'll be accepted
into the herd.  Like trying to pet a wild squirrel, the trick is to 
sit very still until they forget you weren't always there.  

khm



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 DNS server and dnsflagday

2019-01-22 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Jan 22, 2019 at 02:48:31PM +0300, Sergey Zhilkin wrote:
> Hi all!
> 
> Are we ready for this ?

It's not real.

khm



Re: [9fans] sources down

2018-12-31 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Dec 30, 2018 at 11:58:20PM -0700, arn...@skeeve.com wrote:
> 
> How does that work if lines were deleted?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Arnold
> 

$ cat one two
a b c
d e f
g h i

a b c
g h i
j k l

$ diff -e one two
3a
j k l
.
2d


khm



Re: [9fans] upas : without acme : possible?

2018-11-29 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 08:27:09PM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> 
> is that "mail" you mention similar to "mailx" under unix-like systems?
> the problem is one of not wanting a captive user-interface to the 
> mailing sub-system.
> 

You're looking for nedmail(1), I think.  Hopefully sl will chime in;
he's got a pile of scripts revolving around this idea.

khm



Re: [9fans] PDP11 (Was: Re: what heavy negativity!)

2018-10-11 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 10:54:22AM -0700, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
>
> Since when did curiosity become a capital crime?   Oh, wait, that
> was January 20, 2017.  My bad.

Turns out it's not, so you can climb down off your cross.  It's just
that it helps to be a little clearer about your meaning, that's all.
Otherwise you might do something embarassing, like posting SAS
controller code into an NVMe discussion.

khm



Re: [9fans] PDP11 (Was: Re: what heavy negativity!)

2018-10-10 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 04:54:22PM -0500, Steven Stallion wrote:
> As the guy 

might be worth keeping in mind the current most common use case for nvme
is laptop storage and not building jet engines in coraid's basement

so the nvme driver that cinap wrote works on my thinkpad today and is 
about infinity times faster than the one you guys locked up in the 
warehouse at the end of raiders of the lost ark, because my laptop can't
seem to boot off nostalgia.

so no, nobody gets an award for writing a driver.  but cinap won the
9front Order of Valorous Service (with bronze oak leaf cluster,
signifying working code) for *releasing* one.  I was there when field
marshal aiju presented the award; it was a very nice ceremony.

anyway, someone once said communication is not a zero-sum game.  the
hyperspecific use case you describe is fine but there are other reasons
to care about how well this stuff works, you know?

khm



Re: [9fans] what heavy negativity!

2018-10-05 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Oct 05, 2018 at 10:39:36AM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote:
> 
> sorry that i bothered you all.
> 

apology accepted, try to do better next time

khm




Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ?

2018-10-04 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 11:33:33AM +0100, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> Regular aggressive is taking things outside the realm of civilised discourse,
> which is easy to do behind a keyboard, since being irate at abstract things
> seems to be a slippery slope when removed from regular human contact.

Nah, I do it in person too.  But nice try!

> However, it is not really acceptable, even with an attempt at (biased) logic
> behind it.

Disagree.

> And the problem with doing that as a learning experience or for the purpose
> of having better tooling is exactly… what?

None.  But I don't see any learning, and I don't see any better tooling,
and that's my point.  This is just noise.

> You meant “grace” (pronounced “grasse”), not “greasy”, as in “foie de gras”.
> I can understand that mastery of foreign languages might slip away under the
> kind of blood pressure involved in your original reply.

You read my email, and you concluded that I meant to describe grace?  If
I can borrow your favorite word, that conclusion is fascinating.

> Ignorance takes many forms, such as lack of empathy (which can translate in
> some contexts to “emotional ignorance”). The attempt at drawing parallels
> with Kickstarter (and the implicit bias against experimentation and focusing
> only on failures) is amusing, but telling.

Lack of empathy can be just as easily a deliberate decision.  Why do you
tacitly discount this possibility?  

> This isn’t a web forum. It is a mailing-list, and as such (as I would like to
> think) one of the last bastions of measured, rational discourse on today’s
> Internet (ok, there was ample precedent for flame wars in FidoNet, and we can
> gloss over the Usenet massacres, but I think my point has a chance of getting
> across). You are not helping to set a positive tone.

I do not want to set a positive tone.  I want the programming fanfiction
to go away.  And I know this isn't a web forum.  That's why I
highlighted the weblike nature of the posting in question:  to indicate
it is out of place on a mailing list.  Much like your pearl-clutching
about civility.  

> And yet, if no-one tries, nobody will ever deliver on it.

And yet, if this person tries, nobody will still have delivered on it.
That was kind of the thesis of my message, remember?

> History is filled with people who were laughed at and changed (even if in
> small ways) the world we live in. Being able to remember that is what
> separates civilised cultures from biased, negative cultures that prey on (and
> anticipate) failure for the sake of entertainment. Ancient Rome comes to mind
> here.

Entertainment?  I'm trying to help this person fail in isolation, far
from prying eyes!  I don't want to watch this train wreck, or hear about
it at all.  That's my whole point!  Let the dreams die with some
dignity.

> I parsed that as the Dept. of Agriculture until I realised there were no
> animal husbandry puns to fit this situation. Regardless, I fully expected a
> red “let’s make Plan9 great” again baseball cap to emerge from this argument.
> Not being a political partisan, I’m not going to go there, and point out that
> ad hominem is always a way to introduce fallacy when genuine arguments don’t
> hold water (or alcohol).

I don't know how to be clearer:  my low opinion of this person is
precisely the 'argument' I am presenting.  It can't be a fallacy if it's
a premise.  The conclusion ("this will not happen") follows quite
naturally from the major premise ("idiots never actually execute their
plans") and the minor premise ("this guy is an idiot").  Seems
straightforward, despite your awkard and irrelevant political ramblings.

> You might. Failure to recognise the odds that you are says a lot.

I'm not going to apologize for confidence.  It comes of a moderate
amount of experience, hearing this same noise on a thousand
communications media, all from people who claim to be performing a
'learning exercise' or some such.  Some have delivered.  This person
does not demonstrate the characteristics of that capability.

> Loved this bout of sparring. Reminds me of when I believed technology alone
> could save the world, until I figured out that people (and how you relate to
> them) is the whole point of doing most of what actually matters.

I can only imagine the wonderful feeling that must have accompanied a
belief that anything can save the world, but declining to relate to
unproductive noisemakers is a policy that has consistently served me
very well.

Every once in a while, I am surprised.  When that happens, I get better
tools, and a few people get to savor the knowledge that I was wrong
about something.  It's a fair trade.

khm




Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ?

2018-10-04 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Oct 04, 2018 at 08:50:35AM +0100, Rui Carmo wrote:
> I wouldn’t allow the passive-aggressive mood that surfaces here from 
> time to time to turn me off the project. 

How about regular aggressive?

Starting with "what project?"  We're gonna slap down an alpine rootfs
and throw plan9port in /bin? Every single person on this list has heard 
this exact "idea" with this exact lack of coherent expression at least 
twelve times before, probably from me.

The problem here is, in a record few number of posts, this person has
demonstrated a desire to mix two operationg systems while demonstrating
fundamental misunderstandings of both of them -- then in some kind of
incompetence coup de gras, managed to display an utter ignorance of
software development en route.  A fine display of efficiency! most
Kickstarter projects, for instance, take years to demonstrate this
degree of overconfident ineptitude! 

This sort of garbage post results in flames because it's
attention-seeking nonsense of the kind that generates many upvotes on
web forums, but no actual goddamn software. 

> That said, I’m fascinated by how often (and how quickly) some threads 
> devolve into “there is no point in doing that” or “we don’t need 
> those modern contraptions” arguments - reminds me a lot of some of 
> the hard boiled academia types I used to work with back when VMS 
> started losing ground. 

You're not fascinated by shit; that's a medium- to low-quality
rhetorical dodge to throw mud at straw men.  Stand by your opinions,
soldier -- you don't get bonus points for fake rumination.  For the 
record, I think it's a fine idea, but this guy isn't the one who's 
gonna cross that finish line.  Not this decade, at least, and I'd 
lay good money that it's not next decade, either.

If nothing else, by the time you get a decent clip down this road, you
come to understand why the locals were laughing as you passed them.

> As much as some folk here are not exactly fond of various nuances of 
> modern tech (from Linux to X to git, etc.),  I don’t think there’s 
> any need for dissing personal efforts to use or improve various 
> aspects of Plan9 (including, horror of horrors, making the user land 
> a bit more modern and usable, or at least more accessible to 
> mainstream users).

Efforts?  More hypothesizing? or is there some effort happening
somewhere here?  Anyway, needlessly or not, I'm not dissing any effort.
I'm dissing a person; 100% USDA Prime Ad Hominem, just ask Irving Copi 
if it ain't.  

You know what the best part is?  If I've got it all wrong, and this
person is indeed the Palamedes who will round out our unixy alphabet,
then I'll still get to use the software.  So let's all hope I'm wrong!

But I'm not.

> I’m just going to fetch my vitriol wiper now.

Happy to help,

khm



Re: [9fans] plan9port : complete system : kernel : freebsd || linux ?

2018-10-02 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Oct 02, 2018 at 08:10:19PM +0200, hiro wrote:
> why do you use the past tense about glendix? is it finished?

I have a kid in the second grade who was born after the last time anyone
worked on Glendix.   

khm




Re: [9fans] Touchpad

2018-09-20 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 03:43:48PM +, DHAN HURLEY wrote:
> Hi, 
> I am sorry to break into your discussion.How do i UNSUBSCRIBE from this list
> Many thanks,
> Dhan Hurley

List-Unsubscribe: ,





Re: [9fans] 9front VMX

2018-09-10 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 06:57:29PM +0100, Steve Simon wrote:
> is there any graphics support? would it be usable to run a browser? dillo 
> talking to a framebuffer maybe?
> 
> ever hopefull of getting modern browser support in plan9...
> 
> -Steve


This is documented in the linked fqa section.

http://fqa.9front.org/openbsdvmweb.png

Note:  when sl said performance is terrible, this is what he was talking
about.

khm



Re: [9fans] 9P or better file services for multiple platforms

2018-09-02 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Sep 02, 2018 at 08:09:55PM +0200, Lucio De Re wrote:
> On 9/2/18, Skip Tavakkolian  wrote:
> >
> > Regarding authentication and access control, I think the only *standard*
> > option for a mixed OS environment (Plan 9, Linux/*BSD, Windows) is
> > Kerberos.
> >
> Is that still actively used (I mean, outside of Microsoft's attempted
> hi-jacking)? In my Linux-prone wider environment, the name is never
> uttered.

Yes, it's extremely common in many business and government
environments.  All of linux's weird-ass authentication systems are
poorly-reinvented kerberos implementations, with the primary limitations
and pain points directly stemming from unix tropes.  Generally someone
comes up with a bad idea, everyone adopts it, and then that bad idea
slowly evolves as closely as it can to being kerberos.

Most commonly, someone will mandate two-factor authentication, and
kerberos tickets (usually via GSSAPI) are the back-end, regardless of
which security tokens (RSA SecurID, smart cards, yubikeys, etc) are
chosen.

khm



Re: [9fans] updating awk ...

2018-08-29 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 12:40:21AM -0400, Benjamin Purcell wrote:
> Spew here. I only made minimal changes to 9front awk to convert it to

On the topic of awk, a while ago Paul A. Patience did some work to
the awk in Boyd's contrib, so people interested in a native awk have
options these days.  Paul has moved on to other work, but I kept a copy
of his repo, which is available at http://code.9front.org/hg/awk/

khm



Re: [9fans] Tcl on Plan 9

2018-08-18 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 10:53:51PM +0300, Олег Бахарев wrote:
> Is there a Tcl for Plan 9? And where can I get it?

fgb had it in contrib: http://9p.io/sources/contrib/fgb/replica/tcl/

khm



Re: [9fans] What are you using Plan 9 for?

2018-06-20 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 10:35:42PM +0100, Ethan A. Gardener wrote:
> 
> a sort of operating system where the primary interface to all tasks is 
> a Forth interpreter.

I think we've talked about this in another venue some years back, but I
often thing of the OpenFirmware implementation used by the OLPC XO-1
laptop.  Instead of a BIOS or UEFI or linux trash in their stead, the
system was managed by an OpenFirmware installation, much of which was
written in Forth, and whose primary interface was a Forth shell.  This
environment had complete access to the hardware of the system, which
was used by the project to create really comprehensive hardware
diagnostics tools.

I mostly used it for screwing around, but it was fairly complete; it
supported the wifi hardware and the webcam, and I often thought I'd like
a computer that just booted into this environment and stayed there.  I'm
glad to hear you're still experimenting along these lines.  There's a
lot of value in a system whose primary interface is the programming
environment.  I work with computers because of the Commodore VIC-20...
and I wonder if I'd have ever given a damn about the field if my first
exposure to computers involved a Modern User Experience.

khM



Re: [9fans] how to undo in Rio shell window and Acme editor?

2018-05-09 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 02:32:53PM +0800, 刘宇宝 wrote:
> 
> I miss much the *universal* shortcut Ctrl-z on Window and Command-z on 
> macOS,  does Rio and Acme have the equivalent?
> 

Both the Ctrl key and the z key are fully supported on 9front Systems.
To remove undesired characters from the screen, the Backspace key is
also automatically provisioned, free of charge. 

khm



Re: [9fans] test(1) support for string length (-l) in p9p?

2018-04-10 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Apr 10, 2018 at 09:28:42AM +0200, dexen deVries wrote:
> the man page of test(1) mentions "-l string" as string length operator
> for -eq, -gt, etc.
> but there seems to be nothing in the plan9port's src/cmd/test.c, nor
> in 9p.io/sources/cmd/test.c
> 
> is there any implementation of this floating around?
> 

Sure, in the research unix releases (e.g. [1]).  No idea why it got
dropped en route to today.  Further: unknown why someone cared enough 
to drop the feature but not enough to fix the man page.

khm

1 - 
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/Research-V7-Snapshot-Development/usr/src/cmd/test.c



Re: [9fans] nupas

2018-03-04 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Mar 04, 2018 at 10:26:46PM +, Steve Simon wrote:
> Great, thanks.
> 
> I just need to work out how to migrate my mailboxes
> and incorperate my changes to upas (spam prevention).
> 
> -Steve
> 

Erik wrote splitmbox; that can handle the conversion to nupas mdir
format.  Make sure nothing is accessing the mailserve (e.g. via imap)
before you kick it off.

khm



Re: [9fans] Fwd: ubiquitous environment?

2018-03-03 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Mar 03, 2018 at 07:13:57PM +, Steve Simon wrote:
> 
> personally i think this idea will become more and more important as we get 
> fiber to the home, local storage will become a thing of the past. 

I remember hearing this sentiment with '9600 baud modems' standing in
for 'fiber to the home.'  

If anything kills local storage, it will be vendor lock within the
android and ios worlds.  Banking on change being caused by *improved*
infrastructure is hanging your jacket on a shaky nail.

khm



Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 06:21:42PM +, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> Yes. And to deliver an image for the Pi, built on Intel systems.

Always good to specify the deliverables.

> I struggle to understand how version control is not more actively used.

It's not particularly necessary when you have global state with
snapshots provided by a shared WORM fs.  DVCS adds a lot of complexity
for questionable gain, in that environment.  9front's adoption of
mercurial is a historical accident rather than a desired outcome.  But,
I understand that most people just want to use the tools they already
know.  It's much easier than learning a new paradigm.

> At least the basic ones regarding whether the result boots, yes.

I look forward to seeing your results.

> Well, for full disclosure, I work at Microsoft. I do have extensive
> AWS and GCE experience, and hardly find them “crippled”. It’s just that
> the world has moved on and prioritised certain kinds of hardware 
> virtualisation.

We can disagree, but AWS's recent push away from xen and toward kvm
indicates to me that they also consider their product crippled. 
Perhaps the world is moving back.

I'm sure they had excellent reasons for it, but I've never found either
Amazon or Google to be particularly capable platforms.  Perhaps I'd feel
differently if I were a web developer.

> For using QEMU’s virtualization features inside Hyper-V.

If Hyper-V is still capable of running Xen guests, you may want to look
at the code on sources for a start in that direction.  That way you
could skip linux altogether and just use the platform natively.  

Good luck,

khm



Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 05:01:35PM +, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> A full build environment (the way I’m used to having it) comprises the 
> end-to-end automation for creating a full build,

A full build of what?  It's one command to rebuild the whole OS.  Is
that the goal?

> triggered by an external code repository 

This pretty significantly reduces the scope of the problem, since only a
couple of the forks use version control.  This simplifies the task
somewhat, at least.

> and (when possible) doing automated testing.

I think this is probably the most useful part of what you describe.  Do
you intend to write the tests?

> I understand that you might be used to manually bootstrap things, 

Please don't start making assumptions.  I'm just trying to clarify what
you're after.

>but I tend to go for fully reproducible builds and that usually requires a 
>minimal degree of automation. I did that for my Inferno builds for the Pi 
>(which, alas, are now lost) and do rely on Linux tools for building, because 
>that’s what I can host in the public cloud (which is also what I do for work).

Plenty of us run Plan 9 on public cloud providers.  There's even been
some success on running it with crippled providers like AWS and GCE. 
Obviously, the task is easier when you use providers that offer full KVM
services.  We've had virtio drivers for a while, and it makes the job
much easier.

> Fortunately, I have access to machines with nested virtualisation, so I might 
> be able to get Plan9 running inside QEMU inside a modern Linux kernel with 
> fair performance - but that does not preclude the need to automate things.

I'm still trying to understand why you'd even need nested
virtualization.

khm



Re: [9fans] There is no fork

2018-02-13 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 03:10:34PM +, Rui Carmo wrote:
> 
> The main issue for me is putting together a build environment on top of KVM 
> or Linux, which isn’t covered in the FQA.
>  

What is a "build environment"?  The FQA contains an entire chapter
(3.3.1) on installing to qemu on linux.  If a complete installation is
not sufficeint to create a "build environment," can you help us
understand what is missing?

khm



Re: [9fans] R.I.P cs.bell-labs.com

2018-01-05 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 07:32:12PM -0600, Steven Stallion wrote:
> Ouch. I'd hate to think the work I did on that is somehow associated
> with 9front.

If you don't want people to use it, don't put it on the internet.

khm



Re: [9fans] R.I.P cs.bell-labs.com

2018-01-05 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Jan 05, 2018 at 09:08:58PM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> Everyone is naming sites to check out, but which one has the right
> contents, is being maintained, and will be stable?

That's never existed to begin with.  Nothing's changed to suddenly make
it likely.

khm



Re: [9fans] questions whose answers are only known by people who abandoned 9fans

2017-10-17 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 11:56:12AM +1100, Rob Pike wrote:
> It went away because it wasn't necessary.

Thanks for the insight.

khm



Re: [9fans] questions whose answers are only known by people who abandoned 9fans

2017-10-17 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 05:46:22PM -0700, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> 
> implementation of sam, the '@' operator (which behaved like '*' except

The '@' operator (c=ANYNL) behaved like '.' (c=ANY) not '*' (c=STAR).  

Apologies for the egregious misinformation,
khm



[9fans] questions whose answers are only known by people who abandoned 9fans

2017-10-17 Thread Kurt H Maier
Speaking of letter capitalization, 

Between the v10/jerq implementation of sam and the plan 9
implementation of sam, the '@' operator (which behaved like '*' except
it also matched newlines) was removed.

Please make shit up to explain this and/or tell us if you actually know
why.

Thanks,
khm



Re: [9fans] The Case for Bind

2017-09-14 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 07:55:21PM +, Marshall Conover wrote:
> khm - Unfortunately, that would conflict with the browsing model I want to
> propose once I've proven my worth - in which the user emails a daemon with
> the site they want, which the daemon then wgets, forwards to them, and
> opens up emacs.

There's no reason you can't attach the fingerprint data as part of a
MIME message part.  You're basically taking money out of Googlers' 
pockets with this refusal to focus on the web.  Are you sure you can 
live with yourself, this way?

Anyway, the common problem with both of your use cases is that it
focuses on making programmers' lives easier.  If you want to be taken
seriously by a Silicon Valley company, you should focus on making
users' lives harder, instead.  

For instance, with bind, Google could install different versions of 
application packages in parallel on unsuspecting customers' devices, 
then do A/B testing to track ad engagement.  Google employees LOVE A/B 
testing; this is a sure-fire pitch.

khm



Re: [9fans] The Case for Bind

2017-09-14 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 02:58:02PM +, Marshall Conover wrote:
> 
> As someone who's neither on their
> team nor an employee of google, I feel that I'm going to need to make a
> damn good argument 

Suggest to them that the namespace status could be exposed to javascript
and used to enhance the accuracy of browser fingerprinting.  Alternately,
if you could come up with a way to shove ads into the output of ns,
they'd probably implement it for you.

khm



Re: [9fans] equality sign in Rc

2017-05-16 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 03:32:09PM -0400, s...@9front.org wrote:
> Honestly, the equality sign is never a problem for me.
> What is the purpose again of making this change?
> 
> sl

Why won't anyone answer this question?  

Is bikeshedding a minor inconvenience worth this kind of complexity?

khm



Re: [9fans] unix 8th/10th edition sources

2017-04-01 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Apr 02, 2017 at 12:21:58AM +, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> Thanks for the correction. I saw that in David's email, but I was confused
> by the "author:" header when looking at blit.c with the hg web interface:
> 
> http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/file/dc783947692e/sys/src/games/blit/blit.c
> 
> it probably refers to a change submitted by cinap.

It does.  All that header stuff is about the changeset you're looking
at; for an actual file history you could use

http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/log/dc783947692e/sys/src/games/blit/blit.c

(note the 'log' in place of the 'file' in the url).  Of course 'file'
shows the latest changeset log, and 'log' shows the change history of a
specific file!  

khm



Re: [9fans] IPV6

2017-04-01 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Apr 01, 2017 at 02:46:53AM -0700, Ori Bernstein wrote:
> On Sat, Apr 01, 2017 at 08:36:55PM +1100, Bruce Ellis wrote:
> > Does anyone know what IPV6 addresses like fec0:0:0:%1 mean and how to
> > make a real (plan9) IPV6 address from them.
> > 
> > Regards.
> > 
> > brucee
> 
> The portion before the '%' is a plain old (link local) ipv6 address. The
> part after the '%' is a zone id. It's safe to ignore.
> 
> Because link local addresses share prefixes, they may need to be told
> what interface to come out of. They can be ignored safely enough, or if
> you want you use an arbitrary string like 'fe80::%/net.alt' as the zone.
> 
> 

Careful.  fec0: is site-local, not link-local, which is fe80:.  I've
never seen a zone ID attached to a site-local address;  I thought the
zone shit was introduced at the same time they deprected the site-local
addresses...

ipv6 is a shitshow.  Cursory inspection of relevant RFCs does not lead
to clarity.  Godspeed.

khm



Re: [9fans] 9front sources (9p importable)?

2017-04-01 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Apr 01, 2017 at 08:53:46AM +, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
> is there a "sources" repo for 9front?

yep.  '9fs 9front' should mount it, although we're currently considering
breaking this out into various smaller bites -- it currently mounts
contrib, sources, the buglist, and the mailing list archives, among
other things.  Look at 9front's /rc/bin/9fs for details.

khm



Re: [9fans] diff side-by-side, an rc challange

2017-03-09 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Mar 09, 2017 at 03:56:34PM +, Steve Simon wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I am having to dig through some data files comparing similar results,
> I really need a side-by-side compare.

Does comm(1) not work for this case?

khm



Re: [9fans] Update APE

2017-02-21 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 08:38:58AM +, Charles Forsyth wrote:
> On 21 February 2017 at 04:12, Kurt H Maier <k...@sciops.net> wrote:
> 
> > with the possible
> > exception of Forsyth's 9k repository [1], which doesn't appear to have
> > got much updating recently.
> >
> 
> Yes, I've been busy with things other than Plan 9 to try to make ends meet.

Sorry if I wasn't clear; my intention was to highlight the fact that the
repo is worth looking at, despite the current trend of dismissing any
project as 'dead' whose last commit was greater than fifteen minutes
ago.

khm



Re: [9fans] Update APE

2017-02-20 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 02:59:27AM +, Skip Tavakkolian wrote:
>
> It begs the question of how do we organize a community maintained 
> repository?

There isn't "a" community, so it's pretty pointless.  The list you
posted is the complete list of stuff that matters with the possible
exception of Forsyth's 9k repository [1], which doesn't appear to have
got much updating recently.  The point is, there's not that much to keep
track of, and anyone who cares will not have a terrible time keeping up.

The only time this has failed me was when a 9legacy patch written
specifically for Go took us by surprise (we got users mentioning a
release candidate wouldn't build).  I whined on Go's issue tracker and
they promised to mention such breaking changes in the release notes.[2]

In short, the people who give a shit about revision control are already
using it, the SP9SSS isn't going to start using it in public, and trying
to get everyone under one tent isn't going to work because git hipsters
literally suffer from organ failure when you ask them to try mercurial,
even though there isn't a (public) git port for Plan 9.

What it boils down to is two classes of makework:  watch the commit logs
for 9k[1] and 9front[3], and write a script that automates pulling
9legacy's patch list or 9atom's image and diffing them for you.  Both 
9k and 9front have facilities for having commit logs mailed to you, if 
you'd prefer.  They both also support rss/atom feeds.  

khm





[1] https://bitbucket.org/forsyth/plan9-9k

[2] Instead we got instructions to read the Go wiki, which documents
required Plan 9 changes and when some were put in, but not which
particular Bavarian fire drill affects which particular release of Go.  
But this is a Go problem, not a failure of the Plan 9 world.  And the
wiki is better than nothing.

[3] http://code.9front.org/hg/plan9front/



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 5th Edition

2016-11-21 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 09:19:13PM -0500, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> 
> On 11/19/2016 05:27 PM, David Arnold wrote:
> > On 17 Nov 2016, at 12:18, Kurt H Maier wrote:
> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 07:55:38PM -0500, Charlie Lin wrote:
> >
> >>> Also does anyone want to host the source tree in a repository?
> >>
> >> This sounds like a lot of work.  Who would undertake this??
> >
> > GitHub, GitLab, or BitBucket all provide gratis repository hosting for Git 
> > and/or Mercurial.  If one of those were adopted, the work involved for 
> > ongoing maintenance is minimal.
> 
> We use gitlab on our team for both repos and task management. I'd be 
> happy to create and maintain a group for Plan9.
> 
> In fact while I was thinking about it I just did. It's at 
> https://gitlab.com/nine-continent


Very kind!  Where can I download your Plan 9 git client?

khm



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 5th Edition

2016-11-19 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 10:26:36PM -0600, Ryan Gonzalez wrote:
> ...which got shut down earlier this year:
> 
> https://opensource.googleblog.com/2015/03/farewell-to-google-code.html?m=1
> 

This must have come to a shock to their users!  I wonder what they did



Re: [9fans] Hack font for plan9

2016-11-16 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 02:30:08PM +1300, Andrew Simmons wrote:
> What size grapefruit are we talking here? Using grapefruit bought from my 
> local supermarket 
> (http://www.paknsave.co.nz/upper-north-island/auckland/royal-oak/) I could 
> fit at most 5 vertically, 7 horizontally into the screen of a 27 inch iMac. 

You're dangerously close to comparing Apples to oranges.  You're already
deep in the citrus family.  Consider carefully your next move.

khm



Re: [9fans] Plan 9 5th Edition

2016-11-16 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 07:21:14PM -0500, Charlie Lin wrote:
> Add one more: EFI support
> Also, can Plan 9 be booted on Open Firmware? (Used on at least Sun SPARC
> workstations)
> 
> On Nov 16, 2016 5:27 PM, "Charlie Lin"  wrote:
> 
> > Any plans for Plan 9 5th edition?
> >
> > My desires:
> > ISO-compliant C compiler and preprocessor
> > Port other programming languages (especially Go) to here
> > Start a source code repository
> > Port Git, SVN, Mercurial, et cetera to here
> >


These are great ideas, is there some central place you can write these
down so we don't lose track of our goals



Re: [9fans] Job interview questions

2016-11-09 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 07:03:24PM +1300, Andrew Simmons wrote:
> I’ve just been asked to respond to the following. Apart from number 8, where 
> the answer is clearly “because they are clinically insane”, I am at a loss. 
> Any hints from the group?
> 

Happy to help.

> 1)   What is the base object in .Net

Despair.

> 2)   Which version of Asp.Net MVC have you used

The wrong one.

> 3)   Explain MVC in general

The 'model' is your database connection.  This never works.  The 'view'
is what displays error messages to the user.  The 'controller' is what
allows the user to send injection attacks to your datastore.

> 4)   Which version of the .Net are you most familiar with

3.5, unless your organization has money, in which case 4.5 and above.

> 5)   Explain why you would use an outer join vs an inner join

An outer join is used when you don't clearly understand your search
algorithm.  An inner join is used when you got your data structures
wrong.

> 6)   Can you explain the request Flow in Asp.Net MVC

Sure!  It goes like this:  request-> collection -> base -> handlergetter
-> handler -> controllerfactory -> controller -> actionrunner -> filter
-> action -> result -> exception -> 500 error.

> 7)   Explain Dependency Injection

This is what we call passing arguments.  

> 8)   Why would a developer choose to use EF

So that we don't have to know how to look up the arguments we want to
pass.  

> 9)   What is the difference between Javascript and jQuery

Nothing.  There is no such thing as javascript; it is an archaic term
for jquery, which is now known as react.

> 10) What are extensions methods

These used to be called 'functions' but that term has been deprecated
both because procedural programming is for squares and those functional
programming kids keep overloading terminology.

> 11) What source control systems have you used

Is this a trick question?  Or are you considering 'github' and 'git' to
be different things?  I don't understand what you are asking.

> 12) Have you gathered systems requirements from clients? If so, 
> please give some details

Clients are the wrong place to gather systems requirements.  Attempting
to interact with clients for any amount of time quickly leads to
injection dependency.  The proper place to gather systems requirements
is the project budget comptroller (to determine scale) and the executive
vice president of sales (to determine scope).

Fingers crossed for the followup interview!

khm



Re: [9fans] Question re source trees

2016-10-31 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:23:18AM +, Richard Miller wrote:
> 
> Sorry, I'm away from home at present.  I'll email you a copy of the
> bluetooth source later this week.
> 
> The pi3 wifi driver will go into my contrib this week too.  I'm sorry
> for the delay.
> 

No apologies!  I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss it when you
released it.

Thanks,
khm



Re: [9fans] Question re source trees

2016-10-28 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 11:54:03AM +0100, Richard Miller wrote:
>
> > > I can also supply bluetooth code for the pi3 if anyone is interested.
> > >
> >
> > I am interested.  Will it be part of your next pi release?
>
> Probably not for a while. I would have to write some man pages first.

Is your contrib directory on sources the place this code will turn up
when you release it?  Or is there another release mechanism I should be
monitoring?

Thanks,
khm



Re: [9fans] Question re source trees

2016-09-29 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Thu, Sep 29, 2016 at 09:08:27AM +0100, Richard Miller wrote:
> 
> I can also supply bluetooth code for the pi3 if anyone is interested.
> 

I am interested.  Will it be part of your next pi release?

khm



Re: [9fans] 9front 5492 1919

2016-09-19 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Mon, Sep 19, 2016 at 04:56:39PM -0700, Jules Merit wrote:
> Go away Die NSA release fails to go beyond...
> "759M memory: 256M kernel data. 503M user, 1128M swap"

See section 9.5.2 of the 9front FQA:
http://fqa.9front.org/fqa9.html#9.5.2

Further troubleshooting should probably happen on the 9front list so as
not to distract 9fans users with onerous email unrelated to their
interests.

khm



Re: [9fans] Distros

2016-09-11 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 07:39:31PM +0200, Andrés Domínguez wrote:
> 2016-09-11 18:40 GMT+02:00 Benjamin Huntsman 
> :
> > with amd64 support? 
> 
> the rpi image 
> 


I predict suffering.

Benjamin:  I wouldn't get too hung up on amd64 specifically.  Labs,
9atom, and 9front should all work fine out of the box, and by the time
you're using the system enough to be interested in accessing larger
memory, you'll have a clear idea of which direction you want to go.

I'm making an assumption there that memory support is what motivates
your request for amd64 -- is there another reason you have in mind?  For
most cases, there isn't a tremendous difference a user would notice
otherwise.  i386 and amd64 live in harmony here.

khm



Re: [9fans] Plan9 and VMs

2016-09-02 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 03:00:26PM -0700, Bakul Shah wrote:
> 
> Don't keep updating it. Problem solved!

Our problem was that each individual user who reported a problem on vbox
was running an apparently unique version -- I don't think we ever had
two trouble reports that matched each other, or two trouble reports
about the same version of vbox...

> However, if anyone makes plan9 work under bhyve or khyve I'm
> interested.

I'm also interested in this, and every once in a while I test it out.
Nothing worth reporting yet, but once I get something running I'll
report it here.

> Separately, an interesting project would be to implement plan9
> sandboxes (ala linux "containers" or freebsd "jails)" so that
> one can easily set up a cluster of plan9 boxes.

mycroft's ANTS tools can be used to do this very effectively.  He's
written copious documentation, including step-by-step walkthroughs, that
cover doing just this.  I've got his code preserved, but I need to
gather up the various texts and stash them in a repo alongside the code.

khm



Re: [9fans] Musings on Interfaces

2016-09-02 Thread Kurt H Maier
On Fri, Sep 02, 2016 at 09:19:48AM -0500, Steven Stallion wrote:
> 
> Strange... Option+click works great for me when I don't have a
> 3-button USB mouse plugged in (they make these too you know). Chording
> using the keyboard is quite pleasant as well.
> 

We call this 'typing'



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