Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:43:51 -0500 Jack Norton j...@0x6a.com wrote: dexen deVries wrote: if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intention to activate widgets, triggering their visibility. ... in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. eeek! Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea? I cannot stand programs that change their visual representation based upon where the mouse is, or what the keyboard meta keys are up to, etc... You're definitely not the only one. The worst... and I mean worst case of hover-only features is the stupid system tray clock in windows xp. I never now when it will be gracious enough to give me that little pop-up that tells me the full date/time. Or in second place, that little pop-up in windows explorer that gives me a (bad) summary of folder contents/size. It's a crap shoot. Hover-only stuff is a disease. I almost said hover-only stuff can be done right, but remembered I've only been relying on it since using trackpads touchpoints - devices almost incapable of mouse creep, and it's still a little bit of a nuisance.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:38 -0400 Anthony Sorace a...@9srv.net wrote: On Jul 13, 2011, at 10:16, Wes Kussmaul w...@authentrus.com wrote: Isn't this a perfect case for letting the user set a parameter, depending upon his/her preference? No. The choice is between two very different user interaction models. Nobody has claimed that having widgets filling what would otherwise be margins and having them *not* fade would be a good plan. It'd be like setting a parameter to determine whether your editor acted like sam or acme - just pick which to run, instead. I commented that Plan 9 scrollbars are (more or less) light enough to be like margins themselves, so we already have that as default. If they're too contrasty, that can always be hacked (probably in libframe). I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that with all the talk I've seen on this topic over the years there haven't been more actual experiments (rio -i being the most ambitious I can think of). The rio code is nice to work with - pick it apart and get hacking. Yeah. Experimenting has certainly been on my list for a while, but I wasn't well enough to try to understand the libframe code. I'm a lot better now, and experiemting with libframe and rio is closer to the top of my list than ever.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Wed, 13 Jul 2011 08:15:27 +0200 Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating margins? Do they actually never try to read anything using i'm not a comp nerd, rathe a biologist, however, and therefore, i like simple, yet working designs how do you use margins? Just to stop my eyesight being bothered by the edge of the screen. The edges of all my current screens are black, and the text-area bg usually white, so there's a lot of contrast there. The whole setup ... is pleasant to look at,... :-))) Books have margins. ... because they're being printed on paper ;-) OK, but they have a plain, background-colored, non-functional margins ... I consider them passively functional. :) IMHO, as always, ++pac
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
do we really need screens? lets move everything into our imagination. all we need is to get a draw(3) interface to it...
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Thursday 14 July 2011 19:12:23 Yaroslav wrote: do we really need screens? lets move everything into our imagination. all we need is to get a draw(3) interface to it... can't wait till the first person gets ghosthacked [1], eh? nb., PostScript is turing-complete, if lacking a bit on the I/O side. [1] an idea from GitS; human brains interface with computer, with all the assorted consequences -- dexen deVries (...) I never use more than 800Mb of RAM. I am running Linux, a browser and a terminal. rjbond3rd in http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2692529
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. yes!! i agree 100% last night i couldn't sleep for a while, so i tried to imagine acme as a whole screen ui, w/o any taglines, ctrl-boxes, and sliders... however, i ran into problems soon... made some sketches, but ended up with acknowledging a very clever acme design. Nevertheless, it would be elegant if all the widgets were invisible, in the way dexen proposed.. i hope to see it implemented soon ;-) ++pac
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
I mentioned Hiki (Human Interface Kit Interface) in Seattle. Some others have extended draw (like fgb - anti aliasing with area coverage - under my humble mentoring). Hiki will be ready to run when I get back from adventure. It optionally has other convolutions - Catmull and Sinc look much better. Next message from India. bruce On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. yes!! i agree 100% last night i couldn't sleep for a while, so i tried to imagine acme as a whole screen ui, w/o any taglines, ctrl-boxes, and sliders... however, i ran into problems soon... made some sketches, but ended up with acknowledging a very clever acme design. Nevertheless, it would be elegant if all the widgets were invisible, in the way dexen proposed.. i hope to see it implemented soon ;-) ++pac
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
Hey, if you want margins you need them. Ever done a patent application? Humans who call me a nerd are subject to ritualistic humiliation. brucee On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 4:15 PM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating margins? Do they actually never try to read anything using i'm not a comp nerd, rathe a biologist, however, and therefore, i like simple, yet working designs how do you use margins? The whole setup ... is pleasant to look at,... :-))) Books have margins. ... because they're being printed on paper ;-) OK, but they have a plain, background-colored, non-functional margins ... IMHO, as always, ++pac
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
dexen deVries wrote: if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intention to activate widgets, triggering their visibility. ... in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. eeek! Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea? I cannot stand programs that change their visual representation based upon where the mouse is, or what the keyboard meta keys are up to, etc... Microsoft Office comes to mind (and then the hover-only menus fade in and out like it's 1999). Stupid goddamn flash/js menus on websites that expand when you hover over them then break when you move the mouse to the menu item you'd like (rinse and repeat...). I like acme because it doesn't change its appearance no matter where I put my mouse, nor does it have menus that appear only when I bark at it. The rio menus are unfortunate, but in that context it is the best it could be I think. I do admit though, as was mentioned earlier, rio's 'memory' of what I last selected in its menus as the next default is very unfortunate. I've gotten used to that though. The worst... and I mean worst case of hover-only features is the stupid system tray clock in windows xp. I never now when it will be gracious enough to give me that little pop-up that tells me the full date/time. Or in second place, that little pop-up in windows explorer that gives me a (bad) summary of folder contents/size. It's a crap shoot. Hover-only stuff is a disease. -Jack
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Wed, 2011-07-13 at 08:43 -0500, Jack Norton wrote: dexen deVries wrote: ... in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. eeek! Am I the only one who doesn't like this idea? I cannot stand programs that change their visual representation based upon where the mouse is, Isn't this a perfect case for letting the user set a parameter, depending upon his/her preference? Wes
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Jul 13, 2011, at 10:16, Wes Kussmaul w...@authentrus.com wrote: Isn't this a perfect case for letting the user set a parameter, depending upon his/her preference? No. The choice is between two very different user interaction models. Nobody has claimed that having widgets filling what would otherwise be margins and having them *not* fade would be a good plan. It'd be like setting a parameter to determine whether your editor acted like sam or acme - just pick which to run, instead. I'm surprised and a bit disappointed that with all the talk I've seen on this topic over the years there haven't been more actual experiments (rio -i being the most ambitious I can think of). The rio code is nice to work with - pick it apart and get hacking.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
you can hide all-but-one taglines with right- (rathre than middle-) click on tagline's `layout box' (the square to the left) yes, i know, and i am aware also of the two-column method that andrey suggested above; however, a wide screen (1980) would then be nice... for now, i drag all but two windows to another (minimized) column to have two files open vertically (with no other taglines) acme is cool and i would like it (fullscreen) as a ui, were it capable to display images within frames, ala abaco thank you all for responses, and special thanks to andrey for pointing me at scrdump.c, i will explore peter
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
occupied by WIMP controls. Tasteless. sorry, i had just the slider idea on my mind, sending a better img: http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/slider.pnghttp://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png still tasateless? PS: Gestures requires no controls. i didn't get it: english is not my mothertongue :-( regards, ++pac
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 14:18:06 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating margins? ((snip)) surely you're joking, mr. feynman? @_@ or are you actually sitting on an ivory tower made of 10MPix displays? as long as we suffer the 1...2MPix displays, we are forced to save every and each pixel. paper is 300DPI (practically, because that's average human vision at reasonable distance). we need 300DPI displays, of some 17...22 inch size, on every desk and in every device to be able to commit to margins the day i get 10MPix i'll be the first in line to follow your advice and get some margins. on an unrelated note, it seems to me websites with large horizontal margins are synonymous with bullet-point engineering and little to no useful content. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] For example, if the first thing in the file is: ?kzy irefvba=1.0 rapbqvat=ebg13? an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
2011/7/12 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com: on an unrelated note, it seems to me websites with large horizontal margins are synonymous with bullet-point engineering and little to no useful content. http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/ -- - yiyus || JGL .
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
yy wrote: 2011/7/12 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com: on an unrelated note, it seems to me websites with large horizontal margins are synonymous with bullet-point engineering and little to no useful content. http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/ This made my morning, thank you. On a related note, I was taught in my technical writing class in college to preserve a small sea of white space in technical documents. This allowed the reader to not get lost in words. It was aimed squarely at the justified paragraph alignment as named by MS Word and how stupid it looks. I personally subscribe to that idea whole heartedly. In a sense, margins to add to such a technique. Obviously though, it can be over done. -Jack
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:36:16 +0200 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 14:18:06 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: MARGINS! Why is it all the computer nerds are obsessed with eradicating margins? ((snip)) surely you're joking, mr. feynman? @_@ or are you actually sitting on an ivory tower made of 10MPix displays? Did you not read ANY of what I wrote? as long as we suffer the 1...2MPix displays, we are forced to save every and each pixel. paper is 300DPI (practically, because that's average human vision at reasonable distance). we need 300DPI displays, of some 17...22 inch size, on every desk and in every device to be able to commit to margins the day i get 10MPix i'll be the first in line to follow your advice and get some margins. I _sincerely_ hope you are trolling. :D Otherwise, in all seriousness, have you no brain at all? You are seriously scaring me here.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 15:40:19 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:36:16 +0200 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: ((ramblings)) I _sincerely_ hope you are trolling. :D Otherwise, in all seriousness, have you no brain at all? You are seriously scaring me here. unfortunately all too often i'm the `noise' part of the `signal-to-noise ratio'. blame my reading comprehension more than ill will. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] For example, if the first thing in the file is: ?kzy irefvba=1.0 rapbqvat=ebg13? an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 16:31:04 +0200 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday 12 of July 2011 15:40:19 Ethan Grammatikidis wrote: On Tue, 12 Jul 2011 14:36:16 +0200 dexen deVries dexen.devr...@gmail.com wrote: ((ramblings)) I _sincerely_ hope you are trolling. :D Otherwise, in all seriousness, have you no brain at all? You are seriously scaring me here. unfortunately all too often i'm the `noise' part of the `signal-to-noise ratio'. blame my reading comprehension more than ill will. Okay, no hard feelings. I've been the noise component often enough myself and I did write a lot in my mail.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
Ethan got me thinking there :-) consider a window consisting of text area and some widgets around it. instead of making the widgets as small as possible, render as margins when not needed. most, or all, window's widgets would be rendered as solid background color (functionally margins) when user is reading or typing text. when user wants to activate any widget, actual menus, scrollbars, statusbar etc. would be drawn. if the user hovers mouse over widget area, it would be understood as intention to activate widgets, triggering their visibility. some symmetry of the left/right and perhaps top/bottom would be called for. one downside is that the widgets would literally `flash' in and out of user's vision, possibly irritating or tiring him. in other words, all the widgets (menus included) of an app turned into margins when mouse's /not/ over those widgets. -- dexen deVries [[[↓][→]]] For example, if the first thing in the file is: ?kzy irefvba=1.0 rapbqvat=ebg13? an XML parser will recognize that the document is stored in the traditional ROT13 encoding. (( Joe English, http://www.flightlab.com/~joe/sgml/faq-not.txt ))
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
This goes in with all those Ayn Rand novels I never read. All of them. ak On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 5:18 AM, Ethan Grammatikidis eeke...@fastmail.fm wrote: rabble rabble
[9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
hi, folks, please, look at this: http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png, and share your opinion; the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea the window borders are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the window scrollbars are thin, too, with a pop-out slider tool could be improved, of course however, not a bad idea, IMHO I always wanted to get rid of all that pixel-consuming stuff... another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for vert/hor scrolling, but I feel that there's a strong opposition to using kb for anything else than character input... best regards, ++pac
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
I don't like it, but it's just my humble opinion :) On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: hi, folks, please, look at this: http://www2.gli.cas.cz/home/cejchan/plan9/ubuntu_widgets.png, and share your opinion; the main thing is the right-hand side with the slider and let's talk about this screen-pixels-saving idea the window borders are thin, but still active, mainly from outside of the window scrollbars are thin, too, with a pop-out slider tool could be improved, of course however, not a bad idea, IMHO I always wanted to get rid of all that pixel-consuming stuff... another way would, perhaps, be using keyboard for vert/hor scrolling, but I feel that there's a strong opposition to using kb for anything else than character input... best regards, ++pac
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
You know page, right? acme window borders are also not active. Instead we have that little box at the top to change size. I think it's ok for them to adapt plan9 ideas. But I always hated the feel of stuff popping up somewhere at random. I'd rather buy more pixels.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
And if stuff is still active what can you use the pixels for besides stupid wallpapers.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Jul 11, 2011 12:14 PM, Peter A. Cejchan wrote however, my point was another: aint you annoyed by needless things that just consume your pixels?? can't it all be done more efficiently?? even if the win borders were 1px wide, wont it be more elegant at least? and why should acme's tagline (s) consume so much pixels, if they can be [possibly] replaced by an [editable] command frame ... yes, i cant prove it, sust a silly idea... butb still feeling a disconcert between rio and acme ui paradigm... cant it be unified? No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme's tag lines.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
sorry, i dont understand. if i have 20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc dont you perceive it as sucking?? ++pac No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme's tag lines.
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:21 AM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: sorry, i dont understand. if i have 20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc dont you perceive it as sucking?? is the right click not good enough? ron
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
sorry, i dont understand. if i have 20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc dont you perceive it as sucking?? I do this all the time. Make two columns, open one file in each, then button-3 on each frame's layout box to make it take over the entire vertical space. --lyndon
Re: [9fans] interesting(?) widgets idea
Peter, take a look at the scrdump.c program at http://mirtchovski.com/p9/xscr/ -- it takes a snapshot of the screen, resizes it and places it somewhere on that same screen. It can easily be modified to take snapshots of windows and place them in other windows. It's not far from being a preview. http://mirtchovski.com/p9/xscr/scrdump.gif andrey On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 11:21 AM, Peter A. Cejchan tyap...@gmail.com wrote: sorry, i dont understand. if i have 20 files open in acme (yes, i'm silly), and i want to see just two of them at once, my screen is spoilt by useless taglines, saying all the time all the same: Cut Paste Snarf Look etc dont you perceive it as sucking?? ++pac No. your editor window would probably take up more room than acme's tag lines.
