Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: ack, thanks... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 this should fix this issue, and update everything to current. sorry for the long delay. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I am having trouble with that link. Is it correct? Thanks. Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:11 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: ack, thanks... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 this should fix this issue, and update everything to current. sorry for the long delay. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp). d On 24/12/2013, at 9:44 AM, Blake McBride wrote: I am having trouble with that link. Is it correct? Thanks. Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 5:11 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: On Thu Dec 19 20:54:04 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: ack, thanks... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. please try the test image @ http://www.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 this should fix this issue, and update everything to current. sorry for the long delay. - erik signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp). i'm sorry should be ftp, though. thanks for the correction! - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Thanks for the new boot trial. I am still getting an error on my HP as follows: ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?) It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen. Please let me know if more info would be helpful. Hope this helps. Thanks! Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 7:03 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: http://newftp.9atom.org/other/+usbinstamd64.bz2 resolves (www vs. newftp). i'm sorry should be ftp, though. thanks for the correction! - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Mon Dec 23 22:14:10 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Thanks for the new boot trial. I am still getting an error on my HP as follows: ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?) It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen. Please let me know if more info would be helpful. sorry to have set the expectation that this error would have been resolved. there are still a few limitations in the ehci implementation. these are high on the list, but not quite the top yet. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Hope my feedback is a help. I'm ready to try more whenever you are. Thanks! Blake On Mon, Dec 23, 2013 at 9:30 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: On Mon Dec 23 22:14:10 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Thanks for the new boot trial. I am still getting an error on my HP as follows: ehci . qh . timed out (no inter?) It did boot but I am getting those errors on the screen. Please let me know if more info would be helpful. sorry to have set the expectation that this error would have been resolved. there are still a few limitations in the ehci implementation. these are high on the list, but not quite the top yet. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Mon Dec 23 22:37:27 EST 2013, bl...@mcbride.name wrote: Hope my feedback is a help. I'm ready to try more whenever you are. it is, but also as anyone else is, you are welcome to submit patches fixing issues. apatch/create issuename email@sub.domain file - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your one was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent... don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware after christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens then my friend... On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 8:51 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.comwrote: On Wed Dec 18 04:48:29 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: i'm getting an error code 87 writing usbdisk to my key: according to the web: The second fix prevents USB Image Tool from restoring invalid images in device mode. A valid device mode image has to be multiple of 512. If that’s not the case, the write operation will fail with error code 87 close to the end of the process. To prevent this, USB Image Tool now checks, if the image file size is a multiple of 512. http://www.alexpage.de/tag/usb-image-tool/ i'm not sure what tool you're using, but the image is a multiple of 512 bytes long. ; /n/atom/ftp/usbinstamd64.bz2 /tmp/usbinstamd64 bunzip2 ; ls -ltr /tmp --rw-rw-r-- M 788 quanstro quanstro 524288000 Dec 18 15:48 /tmp/usbinstamd64 ; echo 524288000 % 512 | hoc 0 perhaps something got corrupted. the crash dump is good information but in this case the pc does not appear to be valid, so i don't see what's wrong yet. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Thu Dec 19 17:36:48 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your one was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent... don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware after christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens then my friend... if you could grab the original faulting pc, even by taking a movie of the booting screen, that would be pretty helpful. i'm sure i have some bugs. ;-) - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
sorry, that went horribly wrong, give me a minute... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 12:29 AM, Conor Williams conor.willi...@gmail.comwrote: wmv ok?... they are also on my google+ On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 11:15 PM, Conor Williams conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: and would you believe, i have the very movie... but... it 43MB... gonna convert it now.. wts! On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 10:53 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@labs.coraid.com wrote: On Thu Dec 19 17:36:48 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: cool man, nice follow up... it's the bell-labs one is code 87... your one was fine but it crashed... and that was the pic I sent... don't worry too much about it... gonna get some of my old hardware after christmas, that I know is supported... I will let you know what happens then my friend... if you could grab the original faulting pc, even by taking a movie of the booting screen, that would be pretty helpful. i'm sure i have some bugs. ;-) - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
ack, thanks... On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:44 AM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.netwrote: here you go... effectless... apologies from Windows Movie Maker ... also on google+ problem diagnosed. mwait required. perhaps i got a bit exuberant requiring mwait support. i'll take a look at this but this evening i'm taking a look at a few bits with the 40gbe driver. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Wed Dec 18 04:48:29 EST 2013, conor.willi...@gmail.com wrote: i'm getting an error code 87 writing usbdisk to my key: according to the web: The second fix prevents USB Image Tool from restoring invalid images in device mode. A valid device mode image has to be multiple of 512. If that’s not the case, the write operation will fail with error code 87 close to the end of the process. To prevent this, USB Image Tool now checks, if the image file size is a multiple of 512. http://www.alexpage.de/tag/usb-image-tool/ i'm not sure what tool you're using, but the image is a multiple of 512 bytes long. ; /n/atom/ftp/usbinstamd64.bz2 /tmp/usbinstamd64 bunzip2 ; ls -ltr /tmp --rw-rw-r-- M 788 quanstro quanstro 524288000 Dec 18 15:48 /tmp/usbinstamd64 ; echo 524288000 % 512 | hoc 0 perhaps something got corrupted. the crash dump is good information but in this case the pc does not appear to be valid, so i don't see what's wrong yet. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Well if you can't compile limbo code with GCC, then hey, the idea is the immortal virus. From: dav...@pobox.com Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 14:54:12 +1000 To: 9fans@9fans.net CC: dav...@pobox.com Subject: Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9 On 24/10/2013, at 5:57 PM, Keith wrote: Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9? I suspect that Plan9ers will be as disappointed as Newtonians at the debased concepts embodied in their successful offspring. d
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On 16 December 2013 19:51, tyrrell t tyrre...@live.com wrote: compile limbo code with GCC gcc? clang, surely!
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I apologize for that statement. I made it before I knew of 9Front and 9Atom. From what I saw, the code hadn't changed in a long time, and wouldn't boot in any environment I had. All that is false when you take into account 9Front and 9Atom. I now have 9Front running fine, and, in fact, I am renewing a port of an OO language extension to it. Blake On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:26 PM, Oleksandr Iakovliev yshu...@lynxline.comwrote: On 2013-12-15 18:05 , Blake McBride wrote: In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. I would not agree about that. If you would try to have a look at coming future tendencies, you would be notified that there is coming what is now named as internet of things where a lot of material objects in your environment will have very small chips which would like to communicate to each other and so on (there are already scary news about arrested china transport containers of electric-irons and kettles which have some extra less 1cm chip/device to listen for open wifi nets and spy on them or do whatever they are programmed ;) ). Another tendency which is not so clear now but it is also coming: computers/devices/systems/grids which perform actions being same time what is called interface-less (good example is your car which automatically identify you by sensors and wireless key/cellphone in your pocket when you touch cardoor and then system just unlocks that - lot of computations, communications and same time interfaceless). When you try to add these two tendencies to each other it would look like that the next generation OSes should be much close to Plan9/Inferno because it should easily cover connectivity and inter-communications of these grids of tens/hundred/thousands of chips/soc/devices per 10 cubic meters around you or worldwide (btw you can just read story about bad bios and suspect of ultrasonic communications). They(OS) should be simple regarding internal design. Parallel programming, computing/resource sharing, CSP, etc is highly required and should not be complicated as it is now in world of Unix/Linux/MS/Apple and should be possible to be programmed by individuals or small groups. Why not MS/Apple-like solution - because then such nets will be closed and not really manageable at all. Why not Linux - it is already over-sized and overcomplicated and highly resistive to design changes, so even an admin with 1meter beard cannot see all especialities of these such system/nets and cannot administering such grids manually. Also consider the security of these complicated systems as effect of simplicity of design of each part. Regarding Apps - Plan9/Inferno have reverse idea: instead of App to support environment where it has to run, it makes the environment to fit the App needs - much more productive, stable, manageable. It should be something simple, easy to join in swarm. Then interface part does not have such huge value - even if it is ms system with browser - this part does not play key role anymore. Plan9/Inferno or their derivatives now have great chance for resurrection aka phoenix, but not as your laptop OS with nicely drawn weather/news widgets or animated icons, though even this is possible. just my 2cents for what we may see next
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Dec 16, 2013, at 16:47 , Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: All that is false when you take into account 9Front and 9Atom. I run and highly recommend 9atom, but what you'd said is false even just taking into account the mainline distribution from Bell Labs. It is updated regularly, but via internal work and in the form of processing patches from external contributors.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Dec 15, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Tristan 9p...@imu.li wrote: and then there's chuck moore. I’m still rooting for GreenArrays as there are a few projects where they chips would actually do well. But now that they’re accepting bitcoin, who knows, who knows. -jas
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
GreenArrays rocks. I still have no idea what to with all the cores. I've found that writing a go package that generates fun forth is fun. brucee On 17/12/2013 11:32 AM, Jeff Sickel j...@corpus-callosum.com wrote: On Dec 15, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Tristan 9p...@imu.li wrote: and then there's chuck moore. I’m still rooting for GreenArrays as there are a few projects where they chips would actually do well. But now that they’re accepting bitcoin, who knows, who knows. -jas
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath. Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol trebol55...@aol.com wrote: . The lack of a web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P! This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob Pike's comments at: http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share. Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional browser. In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux. Just some thoughts. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called an app. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and operation of an app. The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring considerable enhancements to such an environment. If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath. Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol trebol55...@aol.com wrote: . The lack of a web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P! This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob Pike's comments at: http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share. Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional browser. In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux. Just some thoughts. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Bottomline is this: People would never use software like that. The ones who do are already familiar with Plan 9 and weighted pros and cons years ago. 99,9% of the potential users are already on this mailing list and watched this exact same exchange a dozen times. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called an app. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and operation of an app. The new ideas embodied in Plan-9 bring considerable enhancements to such an environment. If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: If bringing Plan 9 to the masses will bring forth stuff like C++ and Java, I will fight against it till my dying breath. Jokes aside. People don't want to use computers. People want to use apps. Noone will like Plan 9. Where you have to read manuals. They hate that. If you like Plan 9, and there's a usecase for it, use it. And write device drivers. That is much more helpful than trying to convince LKML folks that they need userlevel namespaces. People already tried this. 2013/12/15 Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 5:55 AM, trebol trebol55...@aol.com wrote: . The lack of a web browser capable of deal with today's madness and the portability limitation of ape (at least for a ignorant like me) forcesme to deal with other OS I have to install and maintaining, so the simplicity and cleanness I like so much of plan9 become useless. Thanks to Russ Cox for P9P! This is a great segue into a point I was hoping to make. I read Rob Pike's comments at: http://rob.pike.usesthis.com/ and it really got me thinking. What a great idea he talked about! I think this may be at the heart of the Plan-9 idea. Mind-share and markets rarely move with sense or logic. The better approach rarely wins. It is more a matter of critical mass of mind-share. Linux, for a lot of really good reasons, has that mind-share (in the technical arena). (Of course Windows has much more mind-share do largely to the fact that most users are non-technical and don't understand the difference - not to mention Microsoft's bullying of the market...) I think Plan-9 suffered from two big issues. The first was lack of mind-share (crowd acceptance). It is very hard to compete with Windows Linux. The second was lack of support for a huge need - a fully functional browser. In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Linux is not Plan-9, there would be compromises and limitations, but it would be a huge step in the right direction. Plan-9 proved those ideas in an ideal environment. Just like what Smalltalk did to the world - creating C++, Java, the mouse, etc., Plan-9 can bring its ideas to the mainstream through additions and improvements to existing technology like Linux. Just some thoughts. Blake McBride
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Couldn't agree more. On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 2:57 AM, Keith orangecal...@gmail.com wrote: Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9?
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05:53AM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Hm. The most progressive ideas in plan9 kernel. So, replacing plan9 kernel with linux kernel, you will get something strange and not very useful at all.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor The only limit is ones imagination and creativity. Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 12:59 PM, Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru wrote: On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 11:05:53AM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: In spite of some really great ideas, I think we'd all agree that Plan-9 has no real future. On the other hand, I believe that some of the best ideas Plan-9 brings us can and should be a part of the future. I think the best, most practical way to bring those ideas to wide-spread use and availability is to implement those ideas in the Linux kernel. I understand that, since Hm. The most progressive ideas in plan9 kernel. So, replacing plan9 kernel with linux kernel, you will get something strange and not very useful at all.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I have no desire to develope c++ code on plan9 but if there was a simple way to cross compile c++ applications for plan9 that would be great - firefox being the obvious one. This has been done to death, and the closest we ever came to it (IMHO) was cinap's linuxemu - this allowed you to run the linux firefox, or even opera on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Linux, android, Windows, and iOS all reached a critical mass in terms of programmer and end-user apps in order to survive. Plan-9 did not. A quality web browser on Plan-9 is critical to its usefullness by many. But this is just one major piece among many. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: I have no desire to develope c++ code on plan9 but if there was a simple way to cross compile c++ applications for plan9 that would be great - firefox being the obvious one. This has been done to death, and the closest we ever came to it (IMHO) was cinap's linuxemu - this allowed you to run the linux firefox, or even opera on plan9. I required the use of fgb's x11 port as a display engine, and so it is perhaps not the most minimal solution however it works. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
But this is just one major piece among many. Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser. Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare enough that I don't really care. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
major piece among many can be more precisely stated as many pieces among many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users. On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 1:31 PM, Steve Simon st...@quintile.net wrote: But this is just one major piece among many. Perhaps for you but not for me, the only thing is really missi s a browser. Very occasuinally I need to edit word documents but this is rare enough that I don't really care. -Steve
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 01:13:38PM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor No. This sounds like: why do much of useless work? To not lose plan9 benefits, we better will grow (or porting) many of useful and non-existent now software. Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, sysfs and normal procfs (comparing to bsd). May be in the feature it will eliminate ioctl() and other ugly syscalls and introduce /dev/ttyctl + /dev/tty instead of this. But when will this happen? We have it all now in plan9.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
I, respectfully, disagree. The end purpose of any OS, platform, or program is to perform some sort of function. That end function is called an app. the distinction between the os an application is illusionary. redefineing terms a little bit doesn't clear anything up. what an os allows one to accomplish may also be meta. trying new ideas out is certanly useful even if it doesn't result in something useful. An app can be targeted at a programmer or a dumb user. The underlying environment (including tools) determines the available facilities a programmer has in order to construct said app. Unix brings far, far better facilities for the programmer than does Window for the construction and operation of an app. [citation needed] If I am not going to build an app of some sort or another, what is the value of Plan-9? Am I just going to spend all day playing with the cool ideas with no end or purpose in mind? your caricature is actually a pretty good use for plan 9. there's nothing illegitimate about research. but not knowing what you're doing doesn't mean fooling around all day. but more directly to the point, plan 9 is a excellent platform for building products. i've been involved in building a number of plan 9 products, and imho the work would have been much harder with the other oses i'm familiar with. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke. You need to have *CAP_SYS_ADMIN.* And you need to hack back Constants what has since have been missing from headers. You need to allocate your stack. Backwards! It's not even funny as a joke to claim that works. It is certeainly not easier than swiping out a new window. 2013/12/15 Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 01:13:38PM -0600, Blake McBride wrote: All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor No. This sounds like: why do much of useless work? To not lose plan9 benefits, we better will grow (or porting) many of useful and non-existent now software. Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, sysfs and normal procfs (comparing to bsd). May be in the feature it will eliminate ioctl() and other ugly syscalls and introduce /dev/ttyctl + /dev/tty instead of this. But when will this happen? We have it all now in plan9.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: All of this talk sound like someone saying: imagine the hurdles of sending a man to the moon. how can man fly when his weight to strength ratio is so poor The only limit is ones imagination and creativity. Blake No. Lack of training, an inability to learn from documentation, and an unwarranted overestimation of personal ability are all much more immediate limits. Imagination and creativity rarely enhance computing. khm
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 09:43:27PM +0100, Bence F??bi??n wrote: Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke. I didn't say that this things are implemented well :-). I just say that linux has good things in direction of plan9, but it's not plan9. And this is a thankless job to make plan9 kernel from linux kernel.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Ok. Make wonders, then demo them next year on iwp9. 2013/12/15 Oleg lego12...@yandex.ru On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 09:43:27PM +0100, Bence F??bi??n wrote: Linux already has many good things, like a namespaces, Have you tried using *CLONE_NEWNS* in Linux? I did. It's a joke. I didn't say that this things are implemented well :-). I just say that linux has good things in direction of plan9, but it's not plan9. And this is a thankless job to make plan9 kernel from linux kernel.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
...Tell that to the people who are maintaining 9front and 9atom. Oh wait, you just did. My personal opinion: Plan 9 in its forked form will continue to be used and worked for a long time. Hell, there are people still using Amigas for serious computing! I too many times thinking about bringing Plan 9 ideas to Linux or UNIX systems, with the conclusion that the design principals are just too different. You have parts of Plan 9 making it over to the other side, but Linux or BSD will never be a Plan 9-like operating system- forever UNIX. Regards, Lee On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 4:17 PM, Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name wrote: This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like debate. Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. Here is an exercise for fun too. Create your own written language, and write a bunch of books in it. Have fun. Blake On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 2:17 PM, erik quanstrom quans...@quanstro.net wrote: major piece among many can be more precisely stated as many pieces among many in order for the platform to achieve a critical mass of users. the metaphor critical mass is really tiresome one. it does not apply to operating systems. if one person finds the os useful, then that's enough. i'm not entirely clear how this metaphor is supposed to be interpreted, but perhaps the idea is that with lots of users, lots of software gets written and clearly more is better. or maybe not. plan 9 is a research system. for me that means we use it as it makes doing new and interesting things, or the same thing in an interesting way easy. so having piles of ported software is at best a distraction. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Quoting Blake McBride bl...@mcbride.name: This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like debate. Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. you're a very silly person and you don't know anything at all
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:25 PM, Lee Fallat ircsurfe...@gmail.com wrote: ...Tell that to the people who are maintaining 9front and 9atom. I wasn't aware of those two. Thanks!
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On 12/15/2013 4:17 PM, Blake McBride wrote: This whole discussion has devolved into a political left vs. right like debate. Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. No. We forked it. If you could google better maybe you would know this. Here is an exercise for fun too. Create your own written language, and write a bunch of books in it. Have fun. Fuck you. I have better shit to do like make vt(1) work with OpenVMS. Blake -- Veety
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
Suffice it to say that without a critical mass of users, Bell Labs and/or Alcatel-Lucent will drop it, it will experience insufficient support from the user base at large, and it will suffer bit-rot until it won't boot anywhere anymore. plan 9 is sane enough that one person can maintain it for their own use. given the state of other systems that probably doesn't appear possible. that's probably the most important idea that i've taken from plan 9. software can be sane. and then there's chuck moore. tristan -- All original matter is hereby placed immediately under the public domain.
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
plan 9 is sane enough that one person can maintain it for their own use. given the state of other systems that probably doesn't appear possible. that's probably the most important idea that i've taken from plan 9. +1. - erik
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Bence Fábián beg...@gmail.com wrote: This whole discussion has devolved into all the exact same discussions when someone comes to save us from ourselves. If you are too lazy to look into the archives at least read this: http://jfloren.net/b/2012/4/27/0 Yes, that surely fits me at this point. Sorry. I'll try to heed the advice. BTW, I downloaded 9front and it installed on VMware without a problem. Not surprisingly, I'm pretty lost. Looking around, there is a lot of information around the net. The problem is that some of it is out of date. I'll try to keep the questions to a minimum. I appreciate the help. Blake
Re: [9fans] Ideas from Plan-9
On 24/10/2013, at 5:57 PM, Keith wrote: Who here remembers/knows of the vision for the apple newton? The iPad realized it when the technology was able and the time was right. Who is to say the same couldn't be said for 9? I suspect that Plan9ers will be as disappointed as Newtonians at the debased concepts embodied in their successful offspring. d signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
