Re: [Accessibility-ia2] aria-current thread on ia2

[Alexander Surkov]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:36 AM, Joseph Scheuhammer 
wrote:

> Hi Jamie,
>
> Thanks for making that clearer.  Comments inline.
>
> On 2015-12-01 7:42 PM, James Teh wrote:
>
>> The active state in the IA2 spec says:
>>
>>  This state can be used to indicate the current active item in a
>>> container, even
>>>   if the container itself is not currently active. In other words this
>>> would indicate
>>>   the item that will get focus if you tab to the container.
>>>
>>
>> So, it basically maps to aria-activedescendant.
>>
>
> Put another way, the item has focus when the container is active. That's
> not what aria-current means.  The current item may or may not have focus,
> and can remain current even when another item in the container has focus.
> IA2's active state has a different meaning than ATK's, apparently.
>

Right, that's unfortunate but ATK and IA2 differ. If I remember Joanie's
words then ATK state has been introduced a while ago and used somewhere in
GTK. Same is more or less valid for IA2. As Jamie said IA2 can be changed
but we need to make sure nobody depends on the implementation.

On the other hand it's probably ok to not sync ATK and IA2 for this
particular case. IA2 has a way for a fast way to obtain object attributes,
so perfromance is not an issue for IA2 unlike ATK, thus IA2 doesn't
necessary need a state in addition to the object attribute.


> One question:  the quote above says the item has the active state when
> it's container is non-active.  Then when the container becomes active, the
> item then has a focused state.  Does it keep the active state after it has
> gained focus?  I know, the question is likely irrelevant to the current
> discussion, but I am curious about details.


Correct, iirc active state is exposed in Firefox not depending on the focus.


>
>
> That technically conflicts  somewhat with the idea of aria-current. The
>> question is whether ATs currently use this solely for its currently
>> documented purpose. (FWIW, NVDA doesn't use it at all yet.) If they do,
>> this needs to be discussed with other AT vendors or a new state needs ot be
>> used.
>>
>> Jamie
>>
>
> --
> joseph.
>
> 'Array(16).join("wat" - 1) + " Batman!"'
>- G. Bernhardt -
>
>
___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] aria-current thread on ia2

[James Teh]

On 3/12/2015 6:20 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
Right, that's unfortunate but ATK and IA2 differ. If I remember 
Joanie's words then ATK state has been introduced a while ago and used 
somewhere in GTK. Same is more or less valid for IA2. As Jamie said 
IA2 can be changed but we need to make sure nobody depends on the 
implementation.
IMO, even the wording for the ATK active state is misleading, but that's 
an entirely different issue and it's not really relevant because 
everyone in ATK land knows what it means. :)


On the other hand it's probably ok to not sync ATK and IA2 for this 
particular case. IA2 has a way for a fast way to obtain object 
attributes, so perfromance is not an issue for IA2 unlike ATK, thus 
IA2 doesn't necessary need a state in addition to the object attribute.
Not necessarily, but using object attributes for things that should 
probably really be states is also pretty ugly. :) As for "a fast way to 
obtain object attributes", that's controversial. We can either obtain 
one or all. All is slow on the server side, while one requires far too 
many calls, which is hideous for an out-proc client. Out-proc clients 
are actually better off fetching all states because the server side 
penalty is far less than the penalty of multiple cross-proc calls.


Jamie

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: ja...@nvaccess.org

___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] aria-current thread on ia2

[Alexander Surkov]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 6:05 PM, James Teh  wrote:

> On 3/12/2015 6:20 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
>
>> Right, that's unfortunate but ATK and IA2 differ. If I remember Joanie's
>> words then ATK state has been introduced a while ago and used somewhere in
>> GTK. Same is more or less valid for IA2. As Jamie said IA2 can be changed
>> but we need to make sure nobody depends on the implementation.
>>
> IMO, even the wording for the ATK active state is misleading, but that's
> an entirely different issue and it's not really relevant because everyone
> in ATK land knows what it means. :)
>
> On the other hand it's probably ok to not sync ATK and IA2 for this
>> particular case. IA2 has a way for a fast way to obtain object attributes,
>> so perfromance is not an issue for IA2 unlike ATK, thus IA2 doesn't
>> necessary need a state in addition to the object attribute.
>>
> Not necessarily, but using object attributes for things that should
> probably really be states is also pretty ugly. :)


aria-current is an enumeration like aria-autocomplete, which is exposed an
object attribute, no states in addition.



> As for "a fast way to obtain object attributes", that's controversial. We
> can either obtain one or all. All is slow on the server side, while one
> requires far too many calls, which is hideous for an out-proc client.
> Out-proc clients are actually better off fetching all states because the
> server side penalty is far less than the penalty of multiple cross-proc
> calls.
>

true, anyway I'm not sure I like the idea to use states to workaround a
slowness of object attributes, after all states require computations too,
and I think we are not guaranteed that their computation is always faster
on an object. Also we have only 64bits for states, it's not too much.


>
> Jamie
>
>
> --
> James Teh
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
> SIP: ja...@nvaccess.org
>
>
___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] aria-current thread on ia2

[James Teh]

On 3/12/2015 9:51 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
aria-current is an enumeration like aria-autocomplete, which is 
exposed an object attribute, no states in addition.
Ah. I missed/forgot that aria-current is not just true/false; just 
re-read the spec. In that case, I agree it probably doesn't make sense 
to go through the trouble of introducing a new state.


Just a correction, though: aria-autocomplete does expose 
IA2_STATE_SUPPORTS_AUTOCOMPLETION; at least, it does in Firefox.


Jamie

--
James Teh
Executive Director, NV Access Limited
Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess
SIP: ja...@nvaccess.org

___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2

Re: [Accessibility-ia2] aria-current thread on ia2

[Alexander Surkov]

On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 9:23 PM, James Teh  wrote:

> On 3/12/2015 9:51 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
>
>> aria-current is an enumeration like aria-autocomplete, which is exposed
>> an object attribute, no states in addition.
>>
> Ah. I missed/forgot that aria-current is not just true/false; just re-read
> the spec. In that case, I agree it probably doesn't make sense to go
> through the trouble of introducing a new state.
>
> Just a correction, though: aria-autocomplete does expose
> IA2_STATE_SUPPORTS_AUTOCOMPLETION; at least, it does in Firefox.


caught me :)


>
>
> Jamie
>
> --
> James Teh
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
> SIP: ja...@nvaccess.org
>
>
___
Accessibility-ia2 mailing list
Accessibility-ia2@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/accessibility-ia2