Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
Hey joanie, On 2024-06-19 10:56, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: Hey Michael. The accessible description field is meant to be end-user consumable. So if the strings in question are end-user consumable (as opposed to a solution for, say, automated testing), I think that's ok. Yes, the strings are end-user consumable. That said, if the tips are especially verbose, perhaps exposing them via help text instead would make sense?? From an accessibility perspective, that might make sense for some at least. For clarification: LibreOffice uses GTK's .ui file format, which allows to set the accessible description as a property. Besides being used for the actual accessible description that gets reported on the a11y layer, LibreOffice currently uses the string set via that property also for extended tips (shown as a tooltip if extended tips are enabled in the settings). That is LibreOffice-specific handling, and overrides the tooltip property set in the .ui file then. Because of that, there are currently "accessible descriptions" that were never really added with that primary intention, but rather in order to have these strings as extended tooltip texts, with the "side-effect" of them ending up as actual descriptions on the a11y layer. In many cases, such strings are suitable for both uses; in other cases, they might not be ideal. Therefore, decoupling accessible description and extended tooltip texts may be needed. However, I tend to think that leaving it as is by default (use current text as extended tip + accessible description) should hopefully be fine, and then handle any cases that are too chatty on a case-by-case basis. (Decide whether the text is useful as accessible help text instead or not.) Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
Hey Michael. The accessible description field is meant to be end-user consumable. So if the strings in question are end-user consumable (as opposed to a solution for, say, automated testing), I think that's ok. That said, if the tips are especially verbose, perhaps exposing them via help text instead would make sense?? --joanie On Wed, 2024-06-19 at 08:35 +, Michael Weghorn wrote: > Hey joanie, > > On 2024-06-19 09:54, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: > > Hey Michael. > > > > I just removed _generateDescription (not just the part you cited) from > > the soffice script so the default logic will now be used. If Orca starts > > finding and presenting unhelpful descriptions in LibreOffice, let's > > remove those descriptions from LibreOffice. > > > > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/62e8a08fe27883cb46443da8078850627660cf17 > > Great, thanks a lot! > > One challenge when cleaning up might be that extended tooltips (that can > be enabled at "Tools" -> "Options" -> "General" -> "Help" -> "Extended > Tips") currently (mis)use the accessible description field in .ui files > as well and we might want to keep those, but that's something for which > we'll have to find a solution anyway. > > Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
Hey joanie, On 2024-06-19 09:54, Joanmarie Diggs wrote: Hey Michael. I just removed _generateDescription (not just the part you cited) from the soffice script so the default logic will now be used. If Orca starts finding and presenting unhelpful descriptions in LibreOffice, let's remove those descriptions from LibreOffice. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/62e8a08fe27883cb46443da8078850627660cf17 Great, thanks a lot! One challenge when cleaning up might be that extended tooltips (that can be enabled at "Tools" -> "Options" -> "General" -> "Help" -> "Extended Tips") currently (mis)use the accessible description field in .ui files as well and we might want to keep those, but that's something for which we'll have to find a solution anyway. Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
Hey Michael. I just removed _generateDescription (not just the part you cited) from the soffice script so the default logic will now be used. If Orca starts finding and presenting unhelpful descriptions in LibreOffice, let's remove those descriptions from LibreOffice. https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/62e8a08fe27883cb46443da8078850627660cf17 Thanks for looking into this! --joanie On Wed, 2024-06-19 at 07:12 +, Michael Weghorn wrote: > On 2024-06-19 08:48, Michael Weghorn wrote: > > On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote: > > > > Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description > > > > by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" > > > > shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image. > > Whether or not the accessible description is announced by Orca is > generally configurable in Orca's settings. But it turns out that even > when announcing descriptions is enabled in Orca, the description is not > announced for objects in LibreOffice. > > It turns out that this was explicitly disabled in Orca for LibreOffice > (except for "WhereAmI" mode) in the past, in this commit: > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/1121a27b10b4b5804c90f616154514cdce30d246 > > If I remove that locally for testing, Orca does announce the image > description as well when the image gets focus via Shift+F4. > > If it's desirable to have descriptions announced, eliminating the > unnecessary "chattiness" observed in the past (if it's still known what > that is) and then changing Orca to announce descriptions again might be > a way forward. > > @joanie: Any thoughts on that? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
Hi, Le 19/06/2024 à 09:12, Michael Weghorn a écrit : On 2024-06-19 08:48, Michael Weghorn wrote: On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote: Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image. Whether or not the accessible description is announced by Orca is generally configurable in Orca's settings. But it turns out that even when announcing descriptions is enabled in Orca, the description is not announced for objects in LibreOffice. It turns out that this was explicitly disabled in Orca for LibreOffice (except for "WhereAmI" mode) in the past, in this commit: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/ commit/1121a27b10b4b5804c90f616154514cdce30d246 If I remove that locally for testing, Orca does announce the image description as well when the image gets focus via Shift+F4. Ok but the problem is that in order to do shift-f4, I need to be aware that I am on a picture. ANd if I just press the arrow key to examine the doc, I dont have any feedback. It means that if I want to get something, I need to use the browser, then enter. But it is very heavy depending of the situation. I guess LO does not send to Orca something during the arrow navigation, with which Orca can see any picture. If it's desirable to have descriptions announced, eliminating the unnecessary "chattiness" observed in the past (if it's still known what that is) and then changing Orca to announce descriptions again might be a way forward. Again, the solution is really not perfect. I needed to analyse 2 days ago a 40 pages docs, I can say that using the browser to see images then trying tetting something is heavy. My hope is that arrow keys announce images, regardless their alternative text or not. Best regards, @joanie: Any thoughts on that? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
On 2024-06-19 09:24, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: Again, the solution is really not perfect. I needed to analyse 2 days ago a 40 pages docs, I can say that using the browser to see images then trying tetting something is heavy. My hope is that arrow keys announce images, regardless their alternative text or not. I agree. That's what the previously mentioned bug report tdf#77679 is about, and of course it should get fixed. [1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
On 2024-06-19 08:48, Michael Weghorn wrote: On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote: Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image. Whether or not the accessible description is announced by Orca is generally configurable in Orca's settings. But it turns out that even when announcing descriptions is enabled in Orca, the description is not announced for objects in LibreOffice. It turns out that this was explicitly disabled in Orca for LibreOffice (except for "WhereAmI" mode) in the past, in this commit: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/1121a27b10b4b5804c90f616154514cdce30d246 If I remove that locally for testing, Orca does announce the image description as well when the image gets focus via Shift+F4. If it's desirable to have descriptions announced, eliminating the unnecessary "chattiness" observed in the past (if it's still known what that is) and then changing Orca to announce descriptions again might be a way forward. @joanie: Any thoughts on that? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote: Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image. This is interesting. My concern is that (as in the example I read yesterday), I wouldn't even know the image was there if it the text alternative were not read by default. In that case, it was an organizational logo at the start of the document. For Shift+F4 Orca doesn't just say the accessible name by itself, but also the role, e.g. says "myimagename, Image" when the image receives focus. In addition, an accessible name seems to always be present, since the "Name" property set in the image options is used if no text alternative is set (and LO auto-generates a name if none is set explicitly). I expect that similar logic would apply once announcement for an image works when announcing the line, but please raise the topic again if that's not the case once tdf#77679 [1] has been fixed. [1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
On 18/6/24 02:53, Michael Weghorn wrote: There is this existing bug report which sounds like it describes the same issue: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679 ("[ACCESSIBILITY] Accessibility support for replaced objects is incomplete") Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image. This is interesting. My concern is that (as in the example I read yesterday), I wouldn't even know the image was there if it the text alternative were not read by default. In that case, it was an organizational logo at the start of the document. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer
On 2024-06-17 23:54, Jason J.G. White wrote: After importing an OOXML (from MS-Word) document into LibreOffice Writer 24.2.4, using Orca as the screen reader I was unable to read the alternative text associated with an image. I don't think I can share the document, but I would be interested to know whether anyone else here can reproduce the issue. To reproduce, it should be sufficient to read a line containing an imge that has alternative text associated with it. Microsoft 365 was able to read it, establishing its presence. I don't know whether the problem was with use of the accessibility API or the conversion from OOXML format. I just tried that. When setting an "Alt Text" in Word, that is shown as "Description" in the "Properties" -> "Options" for the image after opening the document in Writer, and (as can be seen in Accerciser) it's used as the accessible description, too. There's also a "Text Alternative" that can be set in Writer, which is used as the accessible name, if set. (Word doesn't seem to distinguish between the two at all.) So the import from OOXML seems to work fine. I can reproduce that Orca doesn't announce an image when announcing a line containing an image anchored as character, even if both of the above attributes are set. There is this existing bug report which sounds like it describes the same issue: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679 ("[ACCESSIBILITY] Accessibility support for replaced objects is incomplete") Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy