Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-19 Thread Michael Weghorn

Hey joanie,

On 2024-06-19 10:56, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hey Michael.

The accessible description field is meant to be end-user consumable. So
if the strings in question are end-user consumable (as opposed to a
solution for, say, automated testing), I think that's ok.


Yes, the strings are end-user consumable.


That said, if the tips are especially verbose, perhaps exposing them via
help text instead would make sense??


From an accessibility perspective, that might make sense for some at least.

For clarification:
LibreOffice uses GTK's .ui file format, which allows to set the 
accessible description as a property.
Besides being used for the actual accessible description that gets 
reported on the a11y layer, LibreOffice currently uses the string set 
via that property also for extended tips (shown as a tooltip if extended 
tips are enabled in the settings). That is LibreOffice-specific 
handling, and overrides the tooltip property set in the .ui file then.


Because of that, there are currently "accessible descriptions" that were 
never really added with that primary intention, but rather in order to 
have these strings as extended tooltip texts, with the "side-effect" of 
them ending up as actual descriptions on the a11y layer.


In many cases, such strings are suitable for both uses; in other cases, 
they might not be ideal.
Therefore, decoupling accessible description and extended tooltip texts 
may be needed.


However, I tend to think that leaving it as is by default (use current 
text as extended tip + accessible description) should hopefully be fine, 
and then handle any cases that are too chatty on a case-by-case basis. 
(Decide whether the text is useful as accessible help text instead or not.)


Michael

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-19 Thread Joanmarie Diggs
Hey Michael.

The accessible description field is meant to be end-user consumable. So
if the strings in question are end-user consumable (as opposed to a
solution for, say, automated testing), I think that's ok.

That said, if the tips are especially verbose, perhaps exposing them via
help text instead would make sense??

--joanie

On Wed, 2024-06-19 at 08:35 +, Michael Weghorn wrote:
> Hey joanie,
> 
> On 2024-06-19 09:54, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:
> > Hey Michael.
> > 
> > I just removed _generateDescription (not just the part you cited) from
> > the soffice script so the default logic will now be used. If Orca starts
> > finding and presenting unhelpful descriptions in LibreOffice, let's
> > remove those descriptions from LibreOffice.
> > 
> > https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/62e8a08fe27883cb46443da8078850627660cf17
> 
> Great, thanks a lot!
> 
> One challenge when cleaning up might be that extended tooltips (that can 
> be enabled at "Tools" -> "Options" -> "General" -> "Help" -> "Extended 
> Tips") currently (mis)use the accessible description field in .ui files 
> as well and we might want to keep those, but that's something for which 
> we'll have to find a solution anyway.
> 
> Michael


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-19 Thread Michael Weghorn

Hey joanie,

On 2024-06-19 09:54, Joanmarie Diggs wrote:

Hey Michael.

I just removed _generateDescription (not just the part you cited) from
the soffice script so the default logic will now be used. If Orca starts
finding and presenting unhelpful descriptions in LibreOffice, let's
remove those descriptions from LibreOffice.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/62e8a08fe27883cb46443da8078850627660cf17


Great, thanks a lot!

One challenge when cleaning up might be that extended tooltips (that can 
be enabled at "Tools" -> "Options" -> "General" -> "Help" -> "Extended 
Tips") currently (mis)use the accessible description field in .ui files 
as well and we might want to keep those, but that's something for which 
we'll have to find a solution anyway.


Michael

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-19 Thread Joanmarie Diggs
Hey Michael.

I just removed _generateDescription (not just the part you cited) from
the soffice script so the default logic will now be used. If Orca starts
finding and presenting unhelpful descriptions in LibreOffice, let's
remove those descriptions from LibreOffice.

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/62e8a08fe27883cb46443da8078850627660cf17

Thanks for looking into this!
--joanie

On Wed, 2024-06-19 at 07:12 +, Michael Weghorn wrote:
> On 2024-06-19 08:48, Michael Weghorn wrote:
> > On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote:
> > > > Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description 
> > > > by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" 
> > > > shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image.
> 
> Whether or not the accessible description is announced by Orca is 
> generally configurable in Orca's settings. But it turns out that even 
> when announcing descriptions is enabled in Orca, the description is not 
> announced for objects in LibreOffice.
> 
> It turns out that this was explicitly disabled in Orca for LibreOffice 
> (except for "WhereAmI" mode) in the past, in this commit:
> https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/1121a27b10b4b5804c90f616154514cdce30d246
> 
> If I remove that locally for testing, Orca does announce the image 
> description as well when the image gets focus via Shift+F4.
> 
> If it's desirable to have descriptions announced, eliminating the 
> unnecessary "chattiness" observed in the past (if it's still known what 
> that is) and then changing Orca to announce descriptions again might be 
> a way forward.
> 
> @joanie: Any thoughts on that?


-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-19 Thread Jean-Philippe MENGUAL

Hi,

Le 19/06/2024 à 09:12, Michael Weghorn a écrit :

On 2024-06-19 08:48, Michael Weghorn wrote:

On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote:
Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the 
description by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To 
Next Frame" shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image.


Whether or not the accessible description is announced by Orca is 
generally configurable in Orca's settings. But it turns out that even 
when announcing descriptions is enabled in Orca, the description is not 
announced for objects in LibreOffice.


It turns out that this was explicitly disabled in Orca for LibreOffice 
(except for "WhereAmI" mode) in the past, in this commit:
https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/ 
commit/1121a27b10b4b5804c90f616154514cdce30d246


If I remove that locally for testing, Orca does announce the image 
description as well when the image gets focus via Shift+F4.


Ok but the problem is that in order to do shift-f4, I need to be aware 
that I am on a picture. ANd if I just press the arrow key to examine the 
doc, I dont have any feedback. It means that if I want to get something, 
I need to use the browser, then enter. But it is very heavy depending of 
the situation. I guess LO does not send to Orca something during the 
arrow navigation, with which Orca can see any picture.





If it's desirable to have descriptions announced, eliminating the 
unnecessary "chattiness" observed in the past (if it's still known what 
that is) and then changing Orca to announce descriptions again might be 
a way forward.


Again, the solution is really not perfect. I needed to analyse 2 days 
ago a 40 pages docs, I can say that using the browser to see images then 
trying tetting something is heavy. My hope is that arrow keys announce 
images, regardless their alternative text or not.


Best regards,



@joanie: Any thoughts on that?




--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-19 Thread Michael Weghorn

On 2024-06-19 09:24, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
Again, the solution is really not perfect. I needed to analyse 2 days 
ago a 40 pages docs, I can say that using the browser to see images then 
trying tetting something is heavy. My hope is that arrow keys announce 
images, regardless their alternative text or not.


I agree. That's what the previously mentioned bug report tdf#77679 is 
about, and of course it should get fixed.


[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-19 Thread Michael Weghorn

On 2024-06-19 08:48, Michael Weghorn wrote:

On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote:
Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description 
by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" 
shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image.


Whether or not the accessible description is announced by Orca is 
generally configurable in Orca's settings. But it turns out that even 
when announcing descriptions is enabled in Orca, the description is not 
announced for objects in LibreOffice.


It turns out that this was explicitly disabled in Orca for LibreOffice 
(except for "WhereAmI" mode) in the past, in this commit:

https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/commit/1121a27b10b4b5804c90f616154514cdce30d246

If I remove that locally for testing, Orca does announce the image 
description as well when the image gets focus via Shift+F4.


If it's desirable to have descriptions announced, eliminating the 
unnecessary "chattiness" observed in the past (if it's still known what 
that is) and then changing Orca to announce descriptions again might be 
a way forward.


@joanie: Any thoughts on that?

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-18 Thread Michael Weghorn


On 2024-06-18 14:38, Jason J.G. White wrote:
Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description 
by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" 
shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image.


This is interesting. My concern is that (as in the example I read 
yesterday), I wouldn't even know the image was there if it the text 
alternative were not read by default. In that case, it was an 
organizational logo at the start of the document.


For Shift+F4 Orca doesn't just say the accessible name by itself, but 
also the role, e.g. says "myimagename, Image" when the image receives 
focus. In addition, an accessible name seems to always be present, since 
the "Name" property set in the image options is used if no text 
alternative is set (and LO auto-generates a name if none is set explicitly).


I expect that similar logic would apply once announcement for an image 
works when announcing the line, but please raise the topic again if 
that's not the case once tdf#77679 [1] has been fixed.


[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679

--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-18 Thread Jason J.G. White


On 18/6/24 02:53, Michael Weghorn wrote:
There is this existing bug report which sounds like it describes the 
same issue:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679
("[ACCESSIBILITY] Accessibility support for replaced objects is 
incomplete")


Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description 
by default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" 
shortcut Shift+F4 to select the image.


This is interesting. My concern is that (as in the example I read 
yesterday), I wouldn't even know the image was there if it the text 
alternative were not read by default. In that case, it was an 
organizational logo at the start of the document.


--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy


Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility of images with alternative text in LibreOffice Writer

2024-06-17 Thread Michael Weghorn

On 2024-06-17 23:54, Jason J.G. White wrote:
After importing an OOXML (from MS-Word) document into LibreOffice Writer 
24.2.4, using Orca as the screen reader I was unable to read the 
alternative text associated with an image.


I don't think I can share the document, but I would be interested to 
know whether anyone else here can reproduce the issue.


To reproduce, it should be sufficient to read a line containing an imge 
that has alternative text associated with it.


Microsoft 365 was able to read it, establishing its presence. I don't 
know whether the problem was with use of the accessibility API or the 
conversion from OOXML format.


I just tried that. When setting an "Alt Text" in Word, that is shown as 
"Description" in the "Properties" -> "Options" for the image after 
opening the document in Writer, and (as can be seen in Accerciser) it's 
used as the accessible description, too. There's also a "Text 
Alternative" that can be set in Writer, which is used as the accessible 
name, if set. (Word doesn't seem to distinguish between the two at all.)


So the import from OOXML seems to work fine.

I can reproduce that Orca doesn't announce an image when announcing a 
line containing an image anchored as character, even if both of the 
above attributes are set.


There is this existing bug report which sounds like it describes the 
same issue:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=77679
("[ACCESSIBILITY] Accessibility support for replaced objects is incomplete")

Orca does however announce the accessible *name* (not the description by 
default, at least in my setup) when using the "To Next Frame" shortcut 
Shift+F4 to select the image.




--
To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/
Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy