Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Writer: Problem with Voiceover auf macOS Ventura
Hello Frank, On 2023-10-24 10:56, Michael Weghorn wrote: How exactly VoiceOver announces things is not fully under LibreOffice's control, but from what you write, this sounds like this might actually be related to the role (or specific other properties) that LibreOffice sets on the accessibility layer on macOS. I'll take a closer look once I have access to a macOS development setup. I have had the chance to analyze this on macOS. The announcement of the "collapsed" status/attribute (you wrote "reduced", but for me, VoiceOver said "collapsed" in an English-speaking macOS setup) was caused by a state that was unhelpfully reported by LibreOffice. That's fixed by this change (i.e. will no longer be the case in the next LibreOffice version 24.2): https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/158733 The fact that "edit text" an the cursor position is reported when switching between paragraphs is probably because LibreOffice is representing each paragraph as a separate object (text area) on the accessibility layer, while Pages and Word on macOS are reporting a single text area object for the whole page from what I can see. That's nothing that's easy to change and there's already this bug report to keep track of it: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67918 Best regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Writer: Problem with Voiceover auf macOS Ventura
Hello Michael, thank you for caring. I wish you a good time. Frank > Am 24.10.2023 um 10:56 schrieb Michael Weghorn : > > Hello Frank, > > thanks for the additional information you've provided. > How exactly VoiceOver announces things is not fully under LibreOffice's > control, but from what you write, this sounds like this might actually be > related to the role (or specific other properties) that LibreOffice sets on > the accessibility layer on macOS. > > I'll take a closer look once I have access to a macOS development setup. > > Best regards, > Michael > > PS: I've added the accessibility mailing list back to the recipients. > > On 2023-10-24 10:02, Frank Becker wrote: >> Hello Michael, >> Libreoffice does indeed behave differently from Word and Pages. Libreoffice >> probably presents a paragraph as a kind of group that I have to enter first. >> If I end a line with an end of line, then only the line is read out >> normally. Only when I start a new paragraph is the announcement "reduced" >> read out. >> If the cursor is not at the beginning of the line, then the position of the >> cursor is indicated (cursor in word between the characters O and R). >> All in all, the behaviour of Libreoffice is annoying. This is because Word >> files are often sent among blind and visually impaired people, for example >> with invitations to an event. And often the word processor is mistaken for a >> typewriter where you press the Enter key at the end of the line. >> I would find it better if Libreoffice did not regard paragraphs as a group >> and thus simply read out each line. >> Best regards >> Frank -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Writer: Problem with Voiceover auf macOS Ventura
Hello Frank, thanks for the additional information you've provided. How exactly VoiceOver announces things is not fully under LibreOffice's control, but from what you write, this sounds like this might actually be related to the role (or specific other properties) that LibreOffice sets on the accessibility layer on macOS. I'll take a closer look once I have access to a macOS development setup. Best regards, Michael PS: I've added the accessibility mailing list back to the recipients. On 2023-10-24 10:02, Frank Becker wrote: Hello Michael, Libreoffice does indeed behave differently from Word and Pages. Libreoffice probably presents a paragraph as a kind of group that I have to enter first. If I end a line with an end of line, then only the line is read out normally. Only when I start a new paragraph is the announcement "reduced" read out. If the cursor is not at the beginning of the line, then the position of the cursor is indicated (cursor in word between the characters O and R). All in all, the behaviour of Libreoffice is annoying. This is because Word files are often sent among blind and visually impaired people, for example with invitations to an event. And often the word processor is mistaken for a typewriter where you press the Enter key at the end of the line. I would find it better if Libreoffice did not regard paragraphs as a group and thus simply read out each line. Best regards Frank -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Writer: Problem with Voiceover auf macOS Ventura
Hi Frank, On 2023-10-23 10:59, Frank Becker wrote: When I go through a text in Writer, on each line Voiceover says: Reduced, edit text, insertion point at the beginning of the text. This is extremely annoying. How can I turn this off? I don't have this problem in Microsoft Word or Pages. Without macOS at hand to test/analyze this, it's hard to give a good answer. Does it behave like that also when you have a paragraph that spans over multiple lines of text and you just move from the first line of that paragraph to the next line? Or is that just the case when you switch between different paragraphs? It's unclear to me what the "reduced" in the VoiceOver announcement is for, but "edit text" is likely the role of the paragraph object and "insertion point at the beginning of the text" apparently explains that the cursor is at the beginning of the paragraph or line. What happens if you don't have the cursor/caret at the beginning of the line, but e.g. move it one character to the right first before you move it upwards/downwards? From a quick glance, there's no "paragraph" role in the NSAccessibility API that is used on macOS, so we are currently using the "text area" (NSAccessibilityTextAreaRole) role for paragraphs on macOS [1], which might be related to the way that VoiceOver announces this. The Core API Accessibility Mappings 1.2 specification suggests to map (ARIA) paragraph to AXGroup/NSAccessibilityGroupRole [2]. That might be something worth trying on the development side, depending also on what other applications like Word or Pages do. I'll keep that in mind as something to look into again once I have access to macOS. Regards, Michael [1] "https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/926826e40955175a8c115472e0d2f6c7f2f1a453/vcl/osx/a11yrolehelper.mm#88 [2] https://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.2/#role-map-paragraph -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
