Re: Sony support uses Perl

2011-03-11 Thread Joel Limardo
I like sites like the beginner site you mentioned and sites like
perlmonks, but these sites all share something in common -- they are
directed at the needs of the (prospective|current) developer. In
today's businesses there are other individuals who decide upon a
language to do development -- analysts, CTOs, CEOs, etc. These people
are not interested in how elegant perl's map function is or whether
you can do obscure things with it. Their needs are pretty
straightforward like a) what types of problems is it best suited for
(think Java which consistently marketed itself as a C++ replacement
early on) b) what is it's development cycle/structure (think Apache
Foundation) c) and, as I've been saying, who is achieving/surpassing
ROI expectations by implementing in Perl as opposed to available
alternatives.

If you don't believe that these things are important then make a point
of going to your next company/client outing and try talking to higher
level IT decision makers. I think you will see that concerns like
these have greater precedence to them than whether CMS xyz uses Perl.
In fact, perhaps it would be best to create a questionnaire for these
folks and tabulate responses.

As developers we tend to believe that when things aren't working we
need to just do more development. This is like the horse in Animal
Farm who used to say, 'I will work harder.' it is time to look beyond
that. Don't guess at what will improve the Perl community, let's take
a step back and lend a watchful eye to what has worked for others and
what the people want.
On 3/10/11, Shlomi Fish shlo...@iglu.org.il wrote:
 Hi Joel,

 On Tuesday 08 Mar 2011 15:41:26 Joel Limardo wrote:
 It is (kind of) nice to see that we have not totally dropped this
 subject. First off, defamation is defined as making untrue statements
 that injure someone's character or otherwise by making public facts
 about another that, although true, are not in the public interest (for
 example, if a person had a disease).

 Maybe. However, someone once told me after I said on a post to a public
 mailing list that someone else told me on the phone that something about his
 system was mismanaged, that spreading such rumours in public is considered
 defamation.

 Defamation or not, I think we should get Sony (or whoever)'s approval to say
 they are using Perl, whether or not they do.

 Virtually any information that
 can be easily obtained by the public cannot be said to be protected --
 for instance, if your webserver returns pages that say 'made with
 Perl' it cannot be considered defamatory to aggregate and then
 retransmit this information to third parties. That would be as absurd
 as suing someone for publishing a list of public accounting firms that
 can be easily found in the phone book.

 I see.

  That being said, on certain way to avoid all legal challenges
 would be, as you may have guessed, to obtain written permission
 beforehand.

 Right.

  The goal of marketing is in part to create awareness. If you have
 never heard of widget X nor of it's features and reliability you are
 unlikely to use it. Human beings love to ride the bandwagon, so
 sometimes telling them that their favorite sports figure drinks cherry
 Coke before every game will boost sales. It is a bit of a crap shoot
 to figure out what works but I can assure you that doing nothing is
 like trying to start a car with a potato battery.

 Yes, I've discussed my approach to marketing with some people on IRC
 (including Su-Shee) and they told me we should instead work on preparing
 some
 good web-based CMSes for Perl so people can install instead of WordPress or
 possibly Drupal or whatever, because Perl 5 has very little usable things at
 the moment. Personally, I think that the advocacy I was told that the
 advocacy
 I've done on http://perl-begin.org/ is pretty good.

 Regards,

   Shlomi Fish

 --
 -
 Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
 Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan

 You can never really appreciate The Gilmore Girls until you've watched it in
 the original Klingon.

 Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .



-- 
Sincerely,


Joel Limardo
Chief Software Engineer
ForwardPhase Technologies, LLC
401 N. Michigan Avenue
Suite 1200-10
Chicago, IL 60611
www.forwardphase.com
joel.lima...@forwardphase.com
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/joellimardo
Twitter: http://twitter.com/joellimardo
Fax: 815-346-9495
Ph : 877-321-5467


Re: Sony support uses Perl

2011-03-10 Thread Shlomi Fish
Hi Joel,

On Tuesday 08 Mar 2011 15:41:26 Joel Limardo wrote:
 It is (kind of) nice to see that we have not totally dropped this
 subject. First off, defamation is defined as making untrue statements
 that injure someone's character or otherwise by making public facts
 about another that, although true, are not in the public interest (for
 example, if a person had a disease). 

Maybe. However, someone once told me after I said on a post to a public 
mailing list that someone else told me on the phone that something about his 
system was mismanaged, that spreading such rumours in public is considered 
defamation.

Defamation or not, I think we should get Sony (or whoever)'s approval to say 
they are using Perl, whether or not they do.

 Virtually any information that
 can be easily obtained by the public cannot be said to be protected --
 for instance, if your webserver returns pages that say 'made with
 Perl' it cannot be considered defamatory to aggregate and then
 retransmit this information to third parties. That would be as absurd
 as suing someone for publishing a list of public accounting firms that
 can be easily found in the phone book.

I see.

  That being said, on certain way to avoid all legal challenges
 would be, as you may have guessed, to obtain written permission
 beforehand.

Right.

  The goal of marketing is in part to create awareness. If you have
 never heard of widget X nor of it's features and reliability you are
 unlikely to use it. Human beings love to ride the bandwagon, so
 sometimes telling them that their favorite sports figure drinks cherry
 Coke before every game will boost sales. It is a bit of a crap shoot
 to figure out what works but I can assure you that doing nothing is
 like trying to start a car with a potato battery.

Yes, I've discussed my approach to marketing with some people on IRC 
(including Su-Shee) and they told me we should instead work on preparing some 
good web-based CMSes for Perl so people can install instead of WordPress or 
possibly Drupal or whatever, because Perl 5 has very little usable things at 
the moment. Personally, I think that the advocacy I was told that the advocacy 
I've done on http://perl-begin.org/ is pretty good.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
Rethinking CPAN - http://shlom.in/rethinking-cpan

You can never really appreciate The Gilmore Girls until you've watched it in
the original Klingon.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


Re: Sony support uses Perl

2011-03-08 Thread Shlomi Fish
Hi Gabor,

On Sunday 15 Aug 2010 08:33:09 Gabor Szabo wrote:
 On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Joel Limardo
 
 joel.lima...@forwardphase.com wrote:
  Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere?  I
  just noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:
  http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10
 
 There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki
 
 https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl
 
 but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed
 out almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.
 
 I think it would be a better form to gather companies that support
 Perl in one form or other.
 e.g. by letting and encouraging its employers to work on perl core or
 CPAN modules
 during work hours or by sponsoring various Perl events or by
 sponsoring other aspects of the Perl community.

I agree. I think that a list of all companies that use Perl and do not admit 
that would first-of-all be a problem to compile, and secondly, may be 
defamation. I think it may be the NASA uses Python vs. NASA uses COBOL 
syndrome - NASA (or whoever) uses a lot of stuff (including COBOL and Fortran 
on old VAX machines), but is not going to boast about using, say, COBOL, 
because people hate it. 

What we can do is try to make Perl hip again (like Su-Shee noted in her 
post) by building a certain unique and non-defensive Perl image, that will 
make a lot of companies admit that they are using Perl.

One of the problems with Perl is that back in the old WWW fever, when early 
versions of Perl 5 were practically the only sane thing to use, people wrote a 
lot of Perl 4-like code in Perl 5 due to ignorance (I know I did.). Many of 
these ancient CGI scripts matured into CPAN modules or alternatively some 
popular FOSS or commercial or popular Internet-facing web-sites. However, 
those that extensively use Perl are now more well-entrenched sites like 
Amazon.com , livejournal.com , typepad , etc. which are very popular but not 
considered web 2.0 (bleh!) or hip enough. (And based on a vague feeling, I 
think Google is starting to become well-entrenched too.). Fashions come and 
later become well-entrenched and everyone still does them, but no one is 
proud of it because they are no longer hip.

If we can make Modern Perl 5 appeal again to younger audience, perhaps by 
building an elitist image of a quirky language for rockstars who can 
appreciate a steep learning curve, but followed by great expressivity and the 
power and robustness of CPAN afterwards, and also a vibrant community, we 
maybe can accelerate the Perl renaissance, and get more people to admit that 
they use Perl.

For a while it seems that Vim was losing esteem among the hipsters in favour 
of TextMate and similar editors, while now it may seem that it has become the 
new it editor among them again, so technologies *can* make a perceptive 
comeback, although many of them don't.

Regards,

Shlomi Fish

-- 
-
Shlomi Fish   http://www.shlomifish.org/
http://www.shlomifish.org/humour/ways_to_do_it.html

The American Lottery - all you need is a dollar and a dream. We will take the
dollar, but you can keep the dream.

Please reply to list if it's a mailing list post - http://shlom.in/reply .


Re: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-17 Thread Denny
On Sun, 2010-08-15 at 08:33 +0300, Gabor Szabo wrote:
 There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki
 
 https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl
 
 but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed out
 almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.

I think there would be value in compiling a list of companies that are
'proud to use perl' (to borrow a website name).  These companies are
actually willing to put their name next to Perl, rather than tucking it
away in their back-end support utilities, and that's worth far more to
us than a list of companies who don't even acknowledge the existence of
Perl (other than accidentally, in a URL for instance).

The London.pm list is here:
http://london.pm.org/advocacy/

A global version might be a good resource for this list to work on.  I'd
be happy to host one on the Perl Is Alive server, but obviously it would
have more credibility if it were hosted on perl.org (or .com?)

Regards,
Denny



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Re: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-17 Thread Gabor Szabo
On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Denny 2...@denny.me wrote:
 On Sun, 2010-08-15 at 08:33 +0300, Gabor Szabo wrote:
 There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki

 https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl

 but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed 
 out
 almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.

 I think there would be value in compiling a list of companies that are
 'proud to use perl' (to borrow a website name).  These companies are
 actually willing to put their name next to Perl, rather than tucking it
 away in their back-end support utilities, and that's worth far more to
 us than a list of companies who don't even acknowledge the existence of
 Perl (other than accidentally, in a URL for instance).

 The London.pm list is here:
 http://london.pm.org/advocacy/

 A global version might be a good resource for this list to work on.  I'd
 be happy to host one on the Perl Is Alive server, but obviously it would
 have more credibility if it were hosted on perl.org (or .com?)

I agree but I'd like to turn the whole thing around.
Instead of us asking permission from the companies to list them I'd
like to reach the point where they will pay in order to appear on the
list.
I believe we can do that by creating a sponsorship system or member
system for The Perl Foundation and list the sponsor/memeber companies
on the web site of TPF.

That's where my grant was heading
http://news.perlfoundation.org/2010/06/hague-grant-application-perl-e.html
but based on the feedback on that site and based on my discussion with
Karen there are quite a few people who either don't want TPF to do
that or think that I am not the right person to do this or have other
doubts about the project.

Gabor


Re: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-14 Thread Gabor Szabo
On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 7:55 PM, Joel Limardo
joel.lima...@forwardphase.com wrote:
 Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere?  I just
 noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl:
 http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10

There is an old and out of date list on TPF wiki

https://www.socialtext.net/perl5/index.cgi?companies_using_perl

but I don't think there is a real added value in such list. As Jan pointed out
almost every company uses Perl in one form or another.

I think it would be a better form to gather companies that support
Perl in one form or other.
e.g. by letting and encouraging its employers to work on perl core or
CPAN modules
during work hours or by sponsoring various Perl events or by
sponsoring other aspects of the Perl community.


regards
   Gabor


RE: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-13 Thread Jan Dubois
It is kind of pointless to keep track of it, as virtually *everyone* is using 
Perl somewhere for something.

 

A few years ago somebody analyzed the download logs for ActivePerl with reverse 
DNS lookup and matched it against the Fortune 1000
companies domain names.  I don’t remember the exact number but around 90% of 
them had downloaded ActivePerl at least once from an IP
address owned by those companies.

 

Cheers,

-Jan

 

From: Joel Limardo [mailto:joel.lima...@forwardphase.com] 
Sent: Friday, August 13, 2010 9:55 AM
To: advocacy@perl.org
Subject: Sony support uses Perl

 

Do we keep a list of current companies that are using Perl anywhere?  I just 
noticed that Sony Support appears to be using Perl: 

 

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=HIDC10



Re: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-13 Thread Andy Lester

On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Joel Limardo wrote:

 I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people and 
 companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they be clear 
 that they use it and rely upon it?  Isn't it in the interests of Perl 
 advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just used but that it is relied 
 upon and can handle more system administration tasks? 

If you think it's important, then do something about it.  Make a blog post 
about it.  Start a website about it.  Write an article for me to run on 
Perlbuzz.

We can talk about whether it's important or not on this list all day, but until 
someone does something about it, it's just talk.

xoxo,
Andy

--
Andy Lester = a...@petdance.com = www.theworkinggeek.com = AIM:petdance






RE: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-13 Thread Jan Dubois
Joel Limardo wrote:
 I disagree that your example discounts my point -- downloading Perl is
 not the same thing as building your online support system with it and
 not only leaving the .pl extension on your pages but leaving /perl/ in
 the URI.  The latter publicly says, 'hey, by the way...we use Perl and
 we rely on it for something that we consider to be fairly important'
 versus the fore which could mean virtually anything (evaluation,
 installation scripts, etc.).

Sorry, but I disagree with your additional points as well:

1) Leaving /perl/ and .pl in the URL does *not* mean: Hey, we are
   using Perl to do this and are proud of it.  It rather means that
   they didn't bother to think about providing meaningful URLs for
   their application.  Exposing implementation details in an API is
   a flaw, not a feature.

   Of course this may be all completely justifiable, given that the
   system may be just a quick hack by their support group.  It is
   however not a testament that Perl encourages people to build
   well-designed web applications.

2) Why would 90% of those companies download Perl for evaluation,
   and then not use it?  Do you expect it to routinely fail in
   evaluation as being unfit for actual use?

3) Why are system administration tasks (installation scripts?)
   inferior to online support systems?

 I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people
 and companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they
 be clear that they use it and rely upon it?  Isn't it in the
 interests of Perl advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just
 used but that it is relied upon and can handle more system
 administration tasks?

Any organization of significant size uses all of Perl, Python, Ruby,
Java and lots of other things.  It is nice to have stories about
extra-ordinary uses of languages (e.g. how a Tcl script remote-controls
the Mars Rover), but a list of companies that use any particular
mainstream technology for their bread-and-butter work isn't that
compelling IMO.  Especially if we don't have any additional insight
into the scope of the application, and the challenges that had
to be overcome.

So background stories of big applications written (mostly) in Perl
would make good advocacy. Crawling the web for URLs that match
m,/perl/, or m/\.pl$/ not so much.

Cheers,
-Jan



Re: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-13 Thread Joel Limardo
I like PerlBuzz alot. I think it is a good looking and exceedingly relevant
site. I don't think, however, that it -- or building sites like it -- makes
for a strong, centralized Perl advocacy initiative. I think PerlBuzz's
strength is that it does what it says -- I get news and information about
Perl that is current.  Sites like Perlmonks similarly do something extremely
well, but that thing is not actually advocacy although it is clearly a
component.

No, I think advocacy starts right here (
http://www.perl.org/advocacy/whyperl.html):

...a responsible IT Manager should proceed to select a language or
programming platform based on things that actually matter like the task at
hand, the budget, the current skills of the target coders, the current
environment, etc

This, I think, is at the very heart of programming language advocacy.  The
difference is mainly in the target audience. If I'm an IT manager I have a
budget and higher-ups who watch how I am spending the company's money.  I
have to show them that I can and will make the right decisions when it comes
to language and platform among (many) other things for projects.  What do I
have to show these higher ups to defend my position that their million
dollar project should be principally developed in Perl?  PerlBuzz?
 Perlmonks?  No. I need something else -- something specifically built to
help me achieve this goal.

You've suggested that I build something, but I think that will be ultimately
ineffective.  I learned this little tidbit in a public communications class
I took in college years ago: any (marketing) message not repeated is not
worth saying. Advocacy, let's face it, shares a lot with marketing. When
companies want to sell something they develop a marketing campaign and then
everybody in the company -- from sales to customer service representatives
-- learns the new lingo, adopts the new images, and gets the message out
there. If advocacy is to be effective it must be centralized, like
marketing, so that everyone in the community resounds its latest message(s).

I'm posting this here to illicit responses and ideas. Take a look at this
Google Apps for Business website (
http://www.google.com/apps/intl/en/business/index.html).  Compare it to the
whyperl.html page above. Which is more convincing to you if you are the IT
manager? Why?

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Andy Lester a...@petdance.com wrote:


 On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:21 PM, Joel Limardo wrote:

  I think the difference here is significant. Is it enough that people and
 companies are using Perl and not talking about it, or should they be clear
 that they use it and rely upon it?  Isn't it in the interests of Perl
 advocacy to present evidence that Perl is not just used but that it is
 relied upon and can handle more system administration tasks?

 If you think it's important, then do something about it.  Make a blog post
 about it.  Start a website about it.  Write an article for me to run on
 Perlbuzz.

 We can talk about whether it's important or not on this list all day, but
 until someone does something about it, it's just talk.

 xoxo,
 Andy

 --
 Andy Lester = a...@petdance.com = www.theworkinggeek.com = AIM:petdance







Re: Sony support uses Perl

2010-08-13 Thread Andy Lester

On Aug 13, 2010, at 1:07 PM, Joel Limardo wrote:

 You've suggested that I build something, but I think that will be ultimately 
 ineffective.

OK, so what do you want to have happen?

--
Andy Lester = a...@petdance.com = www.theworkinggeek.com = AIM:petdance