Peter Plagens wrote:
The big philosophical problem with art prizes Ive no trouble with their
economic aspect: Putting extra money in the hands of almost any artist is fine
by me is this: They posit by their very existence a hierarchy of artistic
merit, then go to great lengths in their
Skill is knowing how to do what you want to do. (Jackson Pollock) Who
claims otherwise?
I do.
Because I refuse to consider people skilled just because they're doing what
they want -- which would include Pollock -- as well as all those art school
graduates whom William chides for being
William's attitude toward the master/student relationship can be found around
the world in various kinds of schools - from Japanese dojos to Chassidic
Yeshivas. Mike and Cheers want to drag the word 'taste' into Cheerkep's clinic
- but is there any doubt what William has in mind when he uses it?
Cheerskep, I ignored 80% of your argument for why my notion of taste is so
alien to what most people have in mind when they say Ellen has taste ---
because, in our discussions here, I don't care about the common usage of any
important word.
Remember an earlier discussion we had about what most
As William's agreement might confirm -- Saul's statement may well serve as a
credo for initiates into the world of contemporary abstract painting.
But does anyone else really feel that their lives are made both fanciful and
traumatic by their inability to differentiate between the Real and the
Derek -- we already know why you don't like to use the word 'aesthetic'
(the conceptual baggage etc) -- but when you raised the question of whether
we know what the word 'aesthetic' means. -- and then you answered : Alas,
no one seems to. -- Cheerskep wondered whether you just feigning
Looks like I'm the only one here who likes Jazz --- but doesn't care so much
for improvisation.
I.e. -- I think the effects that grab me have been worked out way
ahead-of-time first by the song writer -- and then by the arranger -- and
finally by the musicians who practice together until
Setting aside the specifics of Jazz -- I'm more interested in issues raised by
Alan's assertion that:
having an opinion is not the basis for dismissing a musical or aesthetic
practice.
What would qualify a dismissal for being regarded as anything more than an
opinion?
Every one of us dismisses
Looking at his list of publications - it appears that Jean-Louis Harouel is a
cultural historian -- so he's not just looking at French art history -- or at
social history -- but a combination of both -- giving him the opportunity to
step outside artworld ideology and ask a dangerous question
my interest is in how the music is organised and develops over
time within ensembles and across different ensembles. I am interested in
these issues for research reasons, but listen to the music in more in mind
than that.
So, Alan you're a musicologist ?
Have you read Richard Taruskin's
Yes -- I almost forgot about the great Jacques Barzun -- but didn't
he also dive off a cliff and curse the world on his way to the rocks below
in the final, tragic chapters of From Dawn to Decadence - 500 years of
Western Cultural Life?
He trashed modern European visual art - going back to
I think it is a brilliant idea, for obvious reasons, on Louvre's part.
Duel between foes on neutral turf. It is the best way to show what is going
to be killed in the competition and why.
Boris Shoshensky
It would be a brilliant idea if the public were allowed to vote for winners of
this
... just came across this gem from W.C.:
*Some materialists escape this problem by insisting
that consciousness can be dispersed, or enacted like
quantum quarks or some such events and we individuals
share it in the same way that the universe shares its
physical energy. If so then we bridge
Alright, Cheerskep --- score a bunch of points and declare yourself the
winner.
But first, let's consider all the genres which you mentioned;
*prize fights
*german lieder
*dog shows
*golf matches
*flower shows
*wrestling matches
*Kabuki
It's my assertion that 'jazz' is a much broader category
Notice what happens when the word 'beauty' is introduced into the discussion
of a painting?
There is ever-expanding reference to specific qualities/features -- and a
need to look a that work again, again, and again.
And so -- Brian's discussion of the Turners at the CMA and the Tate compels us
It is my feeling that :
All thing of nature have meaning that is understood relatively
similarly by all. (Mando)
I disagree.
The devout Hindu sees a cow as a sacred instance of the divine -- I see it as
hamburger-on-the-hoof.
WORDS within different languages of individuals or groups of
Mike, can you give some examples? (which, unlike the ones given in your
previous post, involve human agency)
And then --- could you give the rationale to distinguish them from the example
you gave of a boy popping a balloon to scare someone? That's the example that
suggested to me that no
The Fear Nuttin Band :
Just got literature on a new record album by the above group --
described as follows:
Some bands have coined themselves as revolutionary, but Fear Nuttin Band is
evolutionary. With their musical roots fusing the intensity of metal, the
rhythm of Jamaican dance hall and
Brady's notion of fictional would seem to be awkwardly replaceable by a
phrase like not relevant to reality claims -- as a sports broadcast would
be(did he really catch the ball inbounds? -- did the Niners really win?)
And that's probably why Derek challenged it -- since even if a Raskolnikov
And there you have it, Derek, your first rough sketch of what distinguishes a
WoA -- a kind of clarity and apprehensibility in representing everyday
experience.
Of course, that's only a beginning -- since that language doesn't seem to fit
what might distinguish Mozart from all the music you would
Which is fine with me - since I question whether curatorial expertise can
really be considered a strength in an age that accepts the institutional
definition of art.
Since museums in Britain are not private institutions (as they are in the
U.S.) the government could actually enact a policy to
So Cheerskep -- would you sit through all of Friel's TRANSLATIONS again --
just to get to the moment that gives you an a.e. ?
Would you sit through a recording of all of that Niners playoff game again ---
just to get to its moment if a.e. ?
Or -- would you rather just see the highlights again?
For me -- sports is all about a moment in time -- and once it's gone, I avoid
it like an old campsite.
I know that there are people even more fanatic than you -- who will videotape
an entire season -- and play it back over the off-season -- but here I invoke
the wisdom of Derek -- if your brain
Derek - what can any further investigation - philosophical or otherwise -
determine about whether there can be a thought without any way of embodying
it ?
It would be reckless person who proposed any limitations to the possibilities
for embodiment -- considering all the languages, or other
I'm not suggesting that your judgment of art/non-art should have any criteria,
Derek. (mine don't -- except post-facto).
I'm just noting that criteria -- or any other kind of embodiment -- wasn't
there when you were thinking about whether those Goya prints were art or not.
And I'm offering this
Please don't keep us hanging in suspense, Derek.
Just tell us what were the necessary words for those thoughts (whether the
Goyas were works of art or not).
And if you present the words for your thoughts about a few different Goyas --
we could see how different words embody the different mental
Could we modify Brady's statement to:
language is *a* (instead of *the*) process by which we present relationships
to ourselves (internally and socially) for examination and understanding. ?
I realize that in our historical period - language is the most preferred -
prestigious - and
You're always thinking about Goya's black paintings, aren't you Derek?
(just as William always seems to have the works of David on his mind)
Are they beautiful?
Only if you compare them to the enormous genre of depressing, depraved, vile
figurative images made after 1900 -- especially the ones
Wordless thinking is especially applied in the martial arts - where, indeed,
empty mind is part of the training.
Responses to specific attacks may be unaccompanied by words -- but they are
hardly simple minded -- and may actually require quite a few words to
explain.
A fine example being the
As already noted, nothing can be explained about why this painting should be
called a work of art.
(Or -- at least nothing can be explained by you.)
All you can do is indicate the strength of your feeling -- with words like
powerful or seized
But the word beautiful can be the beginning of a
Would you remember Owens' style if he never won a race?
I've often read that the ancient Greeks conducted their track meets in the
buff because they wanted to see all those exceptionally healthy, handsome
bodies -- and indeed, if track events were still conducted without clothes --
I would
Based on what I'd seen in reproduction - I used to despise Lucien Freud for
adding yet more ugliness to our sad world - but then, about 6 years ago, a
few of his paintings were temporarily loaned to the Art Institute -- and I
completely changed my mind - and yes, I would call them beautiful.
(I
Perhaps, Boris, you could elaborate a bit on presenting the mystery of How
and Why work is done -- regarding this Goya piece which you feel is more
successful at it than the others that you mentioned.
Hopefully, it's not too mysterious to explain (like Derek's notion of 'art')
C'mon, Cheerskep, we occasionally agree about things, especially in that very
important, recent topic of thinking in words, or not in words
Maybe I didn't echo your last post with a hearty I agree! -- but I did go to
world literature to dig up an example similar to your little story about the
Derek - questions 1-3 you will have to address to Cheerskep -- since those are
his words, not mine. (you've got to cut down on that after-dinner wine)
Your initial response to them was to assert that all of the examples he
provided were merely your opinions. (so I assumed you must have agreed
A fine ramble out of the pocket, Cheerskep.
I also have difficulty trying to think of a moment in sports when failure
made for a moment of great drama.
Even regarding that most calamitous of failures - in the 8th game of game 6 in
the 2003 NLCS - when fan interference reversed the momentum of an
So, Boris -- there's nothing you can say about how and why work is done
regarding those paintings that seem to you to be an emotional abstraction of
absolute reality.
But what about the rest ? The ones that don't have that scent of divine.
If you feel that you are able to explain how and why
The statues of ancient Greece and Rome are masterpieces. Here's an idea for
making them better:
We should equip every gallery of ancient art with paints, in red and green and
even gold, then set museum-goers loose on all their sculptures.
Hopefully, A8 has not presented this as anything more
I agree with Cheerskep that:
Derek believes he espies absolute metaphysical
categories: This work IS art, that other work IS NOT art.
(and hopefully, that dispute is over - with all sides agreeing to disagree)
I also agree with Cheerskep that such categories are mythical.
But I would
My belief in beauty is not accompanied by a set of stipulated standards - or
even by all the notions commonly or historically associated with that word.
But still there is a hope that everyone will assemble a category of objects
similar to the category that I've called beautiful -- a hope
Boris wrote:
It would be tedious try to describe Freud's psychological state when he is
ready to paint. But emotionally I know where his creative impulse is coming
from.
It may be tedious, Boris, but if you don't make any effort, how can we
agree/disagree whether you really know where his
I'm guessing that, at least in the visual arts, you like every single thing
pictured in the Andre Malraux books. (and if I'm not right -- I'd be
fascinated to learn about the exceptions)
And amazingly enough -- so do I. (as far as I can remember) The ancient - the
oriental - the African - the
No, Michael, what we have been dissociating is loss (in Sports) from the
tragedy presented in some of the great dramas.
Perhaps you disagree -- but I find that a great drama (Shakespeare, Sophocles
etc) can be far more satisfying, stimulating, and profound than the aesthetic
experience of any
It's happened all the time throughout history - as either contemporary from
the workshop of -- or subsequent forgeries or homages.
Especially in Asia -- where I don't think there's ever been a distinction made
between forgery and homage.
Regarding Shakespeare -- Kurosawa does a pretty good
in honor of Cheerkep's quest:
They all laughed at Christopher Columbus
When he said the world was round
They all laughed when Edison recorded sound
They all laughed at Wilbur and his brother
When they said that man could fly
They told Marconi
Wireless was a phony
It's the same old cry
... but
Not all homages are equally successful, Derek -- that's why we have the two
juries to determine their relative success.
Would your homage to King Lear be judged as presenting the same,outstanding
qualities the jury has found in Shakespeare's version?
All things are possible --
---but I think
Cheerskep has made, here, such a compelling case for the differences between
Shakespeare and his cherished NFL playoff games -- I now look forward to his
investigation of their similarities - if only to read his references to
specific plays.
Cheerskep
to paraphrase Isaak B. Singer- 'When dialog becomes too
intellectual- when it begins to ignore the passions, the emotions- it
becomes
sterile, silly, and actually without substance'.
Does anyone here disagree with the above? (perhaps Alexei would -- but he
seems to have gotten scarce lately)
Derek asked:
Histories of art normally just give you heaps of (often extraneous)
background information (who the picture is of etc). Books on aesthetics
usually contain no illustrations at all and remain in a stratosphere of
abstractions. Exactly who do you have in mind who does what you say,
I've just noticed that our original quote does not specify for whom these
creative works are being measured:
the best measure [of a creative work] judges complexity, finesse,
cohesion of flavors, and an indefinable but unmistakable sense of
originality.
I can think of four different
This is the most basic,divisive issue in aesthetics, isn't it?
It may well be, as William reports, that the cultural
theorists have almost total power these days -- but you will notice that not
a single one remains on this listserv.
Not one.
They just have no common ground with the rest of us.
Let's apply intuitive/spiritual thinking to create some cultural
theory/history of our own - and observe that consumer society allows for a
wide variety of consumers - even if gives the greatest financial rewards to
those who service the most common tastes. In drama -- that would be sports -
in
However, I thought the question before this list was whether such a claim to
the invigorating, encouraging, vital, comforting, wholesome and enjoyable
was justifiable -- Mike Mallory
A fine question to keep before this list.
Can it be kept separate from whether we should choose good over evil
Boris asks:
What 'modernism' you are talking about? This word is misused now-days
as much as 'abstraction'.
Boris, are there are any current writers/institutions that you would call
modernist that address questions of why one should choose the
invigorating, encouraging, vital, comforting,
The thing about ancient Greek marble sculpture -- is that there's not much of
it left -- and most of what is left -- is of no aesthetic interest (at least
to me) -- i.e. it's either badly weathered/broken, or lacking that spark that
separates the beautiful from the banal- not to mention that
RE: 'They may well have been scandalized by what did go up on the
Parthenon since
there was nothing quite like it Greek temples before or since.'
That would explain why they were so proud of the Parthenon ...
*
Were Greeks proud of the Parthenon? How would
And then we can ask -What is Australian about Australian painting?
(and weren't Australian artists just as much born into a continent without
museums and art schools?)
Here's a blog dedicated to that subject:
http://jrmedia.blogspot.com/
Do those things feel especially Australian?
Kind of
It may be depressing to contemplate the lack of imagination among those who
make pieces that are identifiable by nationality -- but I don't think this is
a new trend.
Italians/French/German etc. people seem to look at human bodies in a certain
way -- and despite years of similar academic
We already know who selects the shortlist for literature-arts-classical music:
the art museums, major universities, symphony orchestras, and opera houses.
But film?
Film hasn't yet gotten that kind of institutional vetting.
(and I'm wondering whether everyone even considers it an art.
What
Since it doesn't need to re-performed (like operas) -- and it doesn't need a
specific location in public space (like sculpture or architecture)- and can't
be used to teach literacy (like poetry and novels) - or used to teach any
other form of personal expression (like calligraphy or painting) ---
Is an aesthetic rush stronger -- as a formal presentation seems to look *more*
like other things?
Or, if one feels puzzlement at what those other things might be -- can
there be any aesthetic rush at all?
There certainly are some people who love to be puzzled -- or race their minds
through all
The 1915 newspaper that I quoted yesterday was reporting one of the first
exhibits of abstract painting in America - coming 2 years after the Armory
shows in New York and Chicago.
It may have been first ever group show of American abstract paintings - and it
was certainly the first such exhibit
Now remember - that even though Derek has asked us: What does it mean to
'understand' a work of art? --- he had asked that beleaguered speaker:
what she meant by 'understanding' IN THIS CONTEXT (i.e. the context of her
discussion)
She gave that answer -- which can only be inadequate if it
Music lover that I am -- I will happily agree that I have never understood
music in my life - when talking about how its made with a musician -- or it's
history with an historian -- or its business with a businessman (even though
I'm in that business)
All that stuff is irrelevant to making the
The 20th C. has proven that concepts of art are too weak to sustain the
innovative expression of what Kandinsky called inner necessity a spiritual
manifestation of ineffable human creativity
Haven't you seen that yourself - in how art schools have changed over the past
50 years -- with the loss
(as found here: http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2501.htm)
Created in the image of God, man also expresses the truth of his
relationship with God the Creator by the beauty of his artistic works. Indeed,
art is a distinctively human form of expression; beyond the search for the
necessities of
Actually -- though I've been somewhat fanatic about a lot of American popular
music (especially jazz) -- I don't think it would especially benefit by being
taught in a music school.
Miles Davis, Monk, Coltrane, Ellington -- I doubt many of these great
performers even graduated from high school --
In a sense they did (go to music school) , I guess. Mozart learnt from his
Dad. Etc.
And in sense, they didn't -- the sense that requires a notion of cultural
importance -- that's usually associated with the phrase great art
Mozart studied music with his dad -- and the baker's son studied his
Does anyone know much about the 19th C. Music conservatory?
What unique advantages did they offer ?
*Diversity of opinion and diversity of individual study opportunities?
Not likely - but maybe? You certainly would not find a class in gamelan. And
-- how many different instruments did
Cheerskep has proposed a categorical imperative as follows:
None of us should want everyone else
to choose the same subjects and seek the same effects as we do.
I might agree that *most* of us should not want such a thing -- because most
of us don't have subjects/effects that are worth
I like Imago Asthetik's directives -- because they both seem to qualify as
categorical imperatives -- and yet following them would lead in opposite
directions.
And I think these are two directions that are often in conflict on this
discussion group -- especially in the recent topic of art
I've always assumed that when a creative person has a dream about the kinds of
things they create -- it's an important suggestion from the subconscious-world
soul-muse-whatever -- so whenever it's happened to me (which is not very
often), I've been eager to start sketching it out and see how far
Yes - I also have no idea why a little shopkeeper like myself should be
causing William any nightmares.
Shouldn't he be more anxious about the art school directors and wealthy
investors who are now undermining the artworld as he once knew it?
We small shopkeepers have no special stake in either
Here's the painting from my art club that almost matches William's nightmare:
(the artist is J. Jeffrey Grant (1883, Aberdeen, Scotland - 1960, Berwyn
Illinois)
http://bp1.blogger.com/_u_KW4nuKg9k/SFXAO7fLJfI/FWU/ZHJZRTd00eM/s1600
-h/grant-knight.jpg
I had a nightmare about the
More weird than populist.
unlike labels such as conservative or socialist, the meanings of which
have been chiefly dictated by their adherents, contemporary populists rarely
call themselves populists and usually reject the term when it is applied to
them by others (Canovan, Margaret,
The phrase Be different may be highly ambiguous -- but where the recognition
of difference is positioned in the sequence of aesthetic response is not.
Sometimes it's at the top -- sometimes at the bottom -- and sometimes not
there at all.
(so even if all of the scripts you read can be identified
Don't your feelings and thoughts change over time as you're looking at a
painting?
First -- there's a brief moment of sheer curiosity (maybe a second?)
Then --- there's a rush of pleasure or disgust or something in between
Then -- if you decide to stay and have a look -- your mind settles in
Because watching Mayweather in full flow offered an aesthetic experience as
pure as any in sport.
A comment at the end of the column noted that Mayweather's success is
partially attributable to his choice of opponents -- i.e. there are some
serious contenders out there against whom he might not
This is a first for me -- because I've never known anyone like Cheerskep, who
reads lit crit outside an academic setting -- or, at least to that depth -- 8
shelves worth of Shakespearean studies - amazing.
(BTW - there's apparently a similar enthusiasm in Japan for Murasaki Shikibu -
where about
Might we conclude, Cheerskep, that instead of books of lit crit -- what you'd
really like to have on those eight long shelves of Shakespeariana are heavily
annotated editions -- although such books might not have a large enough
readership to be publishable.
But wait -- perhaps the internet will
I like Cheerskep's focus on what is undeniable:
An a.e. is a sensation, a personal experience as undeniable as a jolt of
fear
But it is also undeniable that sometimes the word 'art' (or something like it)
must be used in today's world -- when deliberations are conducted concerning
what or who
I don't see how the rule of law can proceed without someone being delegated to
determine THE meaning of each of them.
Yes, the rule of law is a fiction -- but if you want to know what it's like in
a place it's not believed, talk with people who grew up in China.
It's a place somewhat like this
Mando's persistent argument on behalf of self-direction is a fine guide to
creativity and success in the popular arts.
It's exactly what I'd expect an emerging punk band to be doing in their garage
-- finding their own unique voice -- inventing the music that they like to
hear - and then hoping
Mando wrote:
I think that working from one's soul will attain better Aesthetic results
than always making copies of models and expecting life to emerge. That's like
playing 'mary had a little lamb' over and over and expect the classics to
emerge.
while William wrote:
Every artist works with a
PoMo makes art real and can only do so by means of a vulgar materialism and
irony - or it makes art political by removing it from the field of the
contemplative and making it aesthetically conceptual.(Saul)
Doesn't vulgar materialism and irony effectively promote the world of free
market
The presence of the original is the prerequisite to the concept of
authenticity, writes Walter Benjamin in The Work of Art in the Age of
Mechanical Reproduction. '
This proposition does seem crashingly self-evident -- except that I
suspect that there is a controversial concept of authenticity
and. the concept of of authenticity belongs to Derek as much as to anyone
else.
For example -- if someone had proven that those African heads on Derek's
website had been made by American art students -- I'm sure that he would never
have posted them as examples of art.
Not because they looked
Thankyou, all.
He must have been a constantly enriching Dad to have.
As might be obvious -- this was a man who LOVED to argue.
Click to see huge collection of discounted designer watches.
Art appreciation does seem to be something that's often passed down through
generations -- although Miller Sr. jump-started his own -- i.e. his parents'
idea of beauty would have been a field of healthy corn or a simple, clean
country church.
He seems to have picked it up at college -- although
It appears that Werckmeister, as a dedicated Marxist, is far more concerned
with the hyperbolic evils of Capitalism today -- and how contemporary
visual culture, both popular and high-end, serves to mask them -- and fails to
provide any kind of criticality.
What did he have to say about the
Here's the picture that interested me the most from Werckmeister's
collection:
http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/art-history/werckmeister/May_25_1999/1
512.jpg
... because it shows three alternate versions for the sculpture commissioned
for the roof of the Soviet pavilion at the 1937 Paris
One final note on this topic - Werckmeister included a picture of the Louvre's
Winged Victory in his lecture:
http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/art-history/werckmeister/May_11_1999/1
132.jpg
We don't know what he said -- but he might have been comparing it to all the
other statues of
Come to think of it -- I think I've been raising this issue on this listserv
every four years.
But it came to mind this year after watching a world-class dance program at
the Pritzker Pavillion Wednesday night. (I also like to go to student-level
dance programs -- but this show reminded me just
I suppose we could dig through the archives of the defunct Indiana
Aesthetics-L --- (or even earlier -- since I also remember a review William
once wrote for a colleague's exhibit, specifically praising him for the
meaninglessness of his work)
But what would be the point ?
William has often
I actually would like to see a large exhibit of geo-form painting -- with the
prestige to attract submissions from the best painters around the world.
Much more than I'd like to see another ping-pong tournament.
No ridicule intended.
I think the better distinction is between whom one intends to please --
oneself -- some specific customer -- or a larger, general audience.
Have there ever been playwrights or film directors who only tried to please
themselves ? Maybe there have been -- but, unless they've been our personal
At an exhibition one was confronted by a large
book and a feather-pen. The directions were to list the person you'd like to
kill.
Did anyone write down Osama Bin Laden?
And would anyone else like to nominate the best conceptual art ?
(it's a category of honor that doesn't interest me any
What is the best conceptual art?
What a stupid question! No wonder nobody answered it.
How can one concept be better than another? (unless in response to some
specific question or problem)
This is yet another way in which conceptual art is different from all the
other arts -- and to include it
Cheerskep -- is Sendak's answer to that muddled question online anywhere?
Maybe he offers a good discussion of qualities that he considers too important
to be preceded by the word merely.
Or maybe not.
Regardless -- the quality of his answer would be quite independent of the
quality of the
I don't see any fuzzy thinking from Sendak here -- because there's two
verifiable facts here:
1. He often gets called a mere illustrator (and I just called him one
myself)
2. a mere ANYTHING is a derogatory term - regardless of what it means to
those who use it.
You wouldn't want to be called a
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