RE: [agi] RSI

2007-10-03 Thread Derek Zahn
Edward W. Porter writes: As I say, what is, and is not, RSI would appear to be a matter of definition. But so far the several people who have gotten back to me, including yourself, seem to take the position that that is not the type of recursive self improvement they consider to be RSI. Some

RE: [agi] RSI

2007-10-03 Thread Derek Zahn
I wrote: If we do not give arbitrary access to the mind model itself or its implementation, it seems safer than if we do -- this limits the extent that RSI is possible: the efficiency of the model implementation and the capabilities of the model do not change. An obvious objection to this

Re: [agi] RSI

2007-10-03 Thread Bob Mottram
On 03/10/2007, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RSI is not necessary for human-level AGI. I think it's too early to be able to make a categorical statement of this kind. Does not a new born baby recursively improve its thought processes until it reaches human level ? - This list

RE: [agi] RSI

2007-10-03 Thread Edward W. Porter
Good distinction! Edward W. Porter -Original Message- From: Derek Zahn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 03, 2007 3:22 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: RE: [agi] RSI Edward W. Porter writes: As I say, what is, and is not, RSI would appear to be a matter

Re: [agi] RSI

2007-10-03 Thread Linas Vepstas
On Wed, Oct 03, 2007 at 02:09:05PM -0400, Richard Loosemore wrote: RSI is only what happens after you get an AGI up to the human level: it could then be used [sic] to build a more intelligent version of itself, and so on up to some unknown plateau. That plateau is often referred to as

Re: [agi] RSI

2007-10-03 Thread J Storrs Hall, PhD
On Wednesday 03 October 2007 03:47:31 pm, Bob Mottram wrote: On 03/10/2007, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RSI is not necessary for human-level AGI. I think it's too early to be able to make a categorical statement of this kind. Does not a new born baby recursively improve its

Re: [agi] RSI

2007-10-03 Thread Matt Mahoney
On 03/10/2007, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: RSI is not necessary for human-level AGI. How about: RSI will not be possible until human-level AGI. Specifically, the AGI will need the same skills as its builders with regard to language understanding, system engineering, and software

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-21 Thread Charles D Hixson
Joel Pitt wrote: On 12/21/06, Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That in itself is quite bad. But what proves to me that Gould had no interest in the scientific merits of the book is that, if he had, he could at any time during those months have walked down one flight of stairs and down a

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-20 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/13/06, Charles D Hixson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To speak of evolution as being forward or backward is to impose upon it our own preconceptions of the direction in which it *should* be changing. This seems...misguided. Evolution includes random mutation, and natural selection. It is

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-20 Thread Joel Pitt
On 12/21/06, Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That in itself is quite bad. But what proves to me that Gould had no interest in the scientific merits of the book is that, if he had, he could at any time during those months have walked down one flight of stairs and down a hall to E. O.

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-19 Thread Joel Pitt
On 12/14/06, Charles D Hixson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To speak of evolution as being forward or backward is to impose upon it our own preconceptions of the direction in which it *should* be changing. This seems...misguided. IMHO Evolution tends to increase extropy and self-organisation. Thus

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-15 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/13/06, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nope. I think, for example, that the process of evolution is universal -- it shows the key feature of exponential learning growth, but with a very slow clock. So there're other models besides a mammalian brain. My mental model is to

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-13 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/5/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Eric Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt We have slowed evolution through medical advances, birth control Matt and genetic engineering, but I don't think we have stopped it Matt completely yet. I don't know what reason there is to think

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-13 Thread Charles D Hixson
Philip Goetz wrote: ... The disagreement here is a side-effect of postmodern thought. Matt is using evolution as the opposite of devolution, whereas Eric seems to be using it as meaning change, of any kind, via natural selection. We have difficulty because people with political agendas -

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-13 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/8/06, J. Storrs Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I had to guess, I would say the boundary is at about IQ 140, so the top 1% of humanity is universal -- but that's pure speculation; it may well be that no human is universal, because of inductive bias, and it takes a community to search the

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-13 Thread J. Storrs Hall, PhD.
Nope. I think, for example, that the process of evolution is universal -- it shows the key feature of exponential learning growth, but with a very slow clock. So there're other models besides a mammalian brain. My mental model is to ask of a given person, suppose you had a community of 10,000

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-08 Thread J. Storrs Hall
Ah, perhaps you agree with Richard Westfall: The more I have studied him, the more Newton has receded from me He has become for me wholly other, one of the tiny handful of geniuses who have shaped the categories of the human intellect, a man not reducible to the criteria by which we

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-08 Thread J. Storrs Hall
On Thursday 07 December 2006 05:29, Brian Atkins wrote: The point being although this task takes only part of the human's max abilities, by their nature they can't split it off, automate it, or otherwise escape letting some brain cycles go to waste. The human mind is too monolithic in

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-08 Thread Hank Conn
I think we're within a decade of that tipping point already. What are some things you are anticipating to happen within the next decade? -hank On 12/8/06, J. Storrs Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thursday 07 December 2006 05:29, Brian Atkins wrote: The point being although this task

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-08 Thread James Ratcliff
IMO, AGIs plausibly could actually transfer full, complete skills including whatever learning is part of it. It's all computer bits sitting somewhere, and they should be transferable and then integrable on the other end. Unfortunatly we need a new way to transfer that knowledge, as presumably

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-07 Thread sam kayley
Brian Atkins wrote: J. Storrs Hall wrote: Actually the ability to copy skills is the key item, imho, that separates humans from the previous smart animals. It made us a memetic substrate. In terms of the animal kingdom, we do it very, very well. I'm sure that AIs will be able to as well,

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-07 Thread Brian Atkins
sam kayley wrote: 'integrable on the other end'.is a rather large issue to shove under the carpet in five words ;) Indeed :-) For two AIs recently forked from a common parent, probably, but for AIs with different 'life experiences' and resulting different conceptual structures, why

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-06 Thread J. Storrs Hall
I'm on the road, so I'll have to give short shrift to this, but I'll try to hit a few high points: On Monday 04 December 2006 07:55, Brian Atkins wrote: Putting aside the speed differential which you accept, but dismiss as important for RSI, isn't there a bigger issue you're skipping

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-06 Thread Brian Atkins
J. Storrs Hall wrote: On Monday 04 December 2006 07:55, Brian Atkins wrote: Also, what is really the difference between an Einstein/Feynman brain, and someone with an 80 IQ? I think there's very likely a significant structural difference and the IQ80 one is *not* learning universal in my

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-06 Thread Brian Atkins
Small correction: Brian Atkins wrote: So there is some group of humans you would say don't pass your learning universal test. Now, of the group that does pass, how big is that group roughly? The majority of humans? (IQ 100 and above) Whatever the size of that group, do you claim that any of

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-06 Thread Brian Atkins
Huh that doesn't look right when I received it back. Here's a rewritten sentence: Whatever the size of that group, do you claim that _all_ of these learning universalists would be capable of coming up with Einstein-class (or take your pick) ideas if they had been in his shoes during his

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-05 Thread Matt Mahoney
--- Eric Baum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt --- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goals of humanity, like all other species, was determined by evolution. It is to propagate the species. That's not the goal of humanity.

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-04 Thread Mike Dougherty
On 12/4/06, Brian Atkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you cause your brain to temporarily shut down your visual cortex and other associated visual parts, reallocate them to expanding your working memory by four times its current size in order to help you juggle consciously the bits you need to

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Mark Waser
. - Original Message - From: Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2006 10:19 PM Subject: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?] --- Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You cannot turn off

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-04 Thread Hank Conn
Brian thanks for your response and Dr. Hall thanks for your post as well. I will get around to responding to this as soon as time permits. I am interested in what Michael Anissimov or Michael Wilson has to say. On 12/4/06, Brian Atkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think this is an interesting,

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread James Ratcliff
There is a needed distinctintion that must be made here about hunger as a goal stack motivator. We CANNOT change the hunger sensation, (short of physical manipuations, or mind-control stuff) as it is a given sensation that comes directly from the physical body. What we can change is the

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread James Ratcliff
Ok, Alot has been thrown around here about Top-Level goals, but no real definition has been given, and I am confused as it seems to be covering alot of ground for some people. What 'level' and what are these top level goals for humans/AGI's? It seems that Staying Alive is a big one, but that

Re: Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Ben Goertzel
Regarding the definition of goals and supergoals, I have made attempts at: http://www.agiri.org/wiki/index.php/Goal http://www.agiri.org/wiki/index.php/Supergoal The scope of human supergoals has been moderately well articulated by Maslow IMO:

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/4/06, Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why must you argue with everything I say? Is this not a sensible statement? I don't argue with everything you say. I only argue with things that I believe are wrong. And no, the statements You cannot turn off hunger or pain. You cannot

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Ben Goertzel
The statement, You cannot turn off hunger or pain is sensible. In fact, it's one of the few statements in the English language that is LITERALLY so. Philosophically, it's more certain than I think, therefore I am. If you maintain your assertion, I'll put you in my killfile, because we cannot

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Charles D Hixson
James Ratcliff wrote: There is a needed distinctintion that must be made here about hunger as a goal stack motivator. We CANNOT change the hunger sensation, (short of physical manipuations, or mind-control stuff) as it is a given sensation that comes directly from the physical body. What

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/4/06, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The statement, You cannot turn off hunger or pain is sensible. In fact, it's one of the few statements in the English language that is LITERALLY so. Philosophically, it's more certain than I think, therefore I am. If you maintain your

Re: Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Ben Goertzel
To allow that somewhere in the Himalayas, someone may be able, with years of training, to lessen the urgency of hunger and pain, An understatement: **I** can dramatically lessen the urgency of hunger and pain. What the right sort of training can do is to teach you to come very close to not

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread James Ratcliff
Can we go back to a simpler distictintion then, what are you defining Goal as? I see the goal term, as a higher level reasoning 'tool' Wherin the body is constantly sending signals to our minds, but the goals are all created consciously or semi-conscisly. Are you saying we should partition the

Re: Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread James Ratcliff
Yes, that is what I am aiming towards here, so do we have any Top-Level goals of this type, or are most all of these things merely signals, and the goal creation is at another level, and how do we deifn the top level goals. James Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To allow that somewhere

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-04 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/1/06, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Friday 01 December 2006 20:06, Philip Goetz wrote: Thus, I don't think my ability to follow rules written on paper to implement a Turing machine proves that the operations powering my consciousness are Turing-complete. Actually, I

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Charles D Hixson
Consider as a possible working definition: A goal is the target state of a homeostatic system. (Don't take homeostatic too literally, though.) Thus, if one sets a thermostat to 70 degrees Fahrenheit, then it's goal is to change to room temperature to be not less than 67 degrees Fahrenheit.

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Mark Waser
? - Original Message - From: Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:38 PM Subject: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?] On 12/4/06, Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why must you argue

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Mark Waser
Message - From: Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 2:01 PM Subject: Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?] On 12/4/06, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The statement, You cannot turn

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Eric Baum
Matt --- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goals of humanity, like all other species, was determined by evolution. It is to propagate the species. That's not the goal of humanity. That's the goal of the evolution of humanity,

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/4/06, Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you maintain your assertion, I'll put you in my killfile, because we cannot communicate. Richard Loosemore told me that I'm overreacting. I can tell that I'm overly emotional over this, so it might be true. Sorry for flaming. I am

Re: Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread James Ratcliff
Ok, That is a start, but you dont have a difference there between externally required goals, and internally created goals. And what smallest set of external goals do you expect to give? Would you or not force as Top Level the Physiological (per wiki page you cited) goals from signals,

Re: Re: Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-04 Thread Ben Goertzel
For a baby AGI, I would force the physiological goals, yeah. In practice, baby Novamente's only explicit goal is getting rewards from its teacher Its other goals, such as learning new information, are left implicit in the action of the system's internal cognitive processes It's

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-03 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/2/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am disputing the very idea that monkeys (or rats or pigeons or humans) have a part of the brain which generates the reward/punishment signal for operant conditioning. Well, there is a part of the brain which generates a

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-03 Thread Charles D Hixson
Mark Waser wrote: ... For me, yes, all of those things are good since they are on my list of goals *unless* the method of accomplishing them steps on a higher goal OR a collection of goals with greater total weight OR violates one of my limitations (restrictions). ... If you put every good

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-03 Thread Mark Waser
, 2006 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?] --- Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am disputing the very idea that monkeys (or rats or pigeons or humans) have a part of the brain which generates the reward/punishment signal

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-03 Thread Matt Mahoney
--- Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You cannot turn off hunger or pain. You cannot control your emotions. Huh? Matt, can you really not ignore hunger or pain? Are you really 100% at the mercy of your emotions? Why must you argue with everything I say? Is this not a sensible

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-03 Thread Ben Goertzel
IMO, humans **can** reprogram their top-level goals, but only with difficulty. And this is correct: a mind needs to have a certain level of maturity to really reflect on its own top-level goals, so that it would be architecturally foolish to build a mind that involved revision of supergoals at

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-03 Thread Brian Atkins
I think this is an interesting, important, and very incomplete subject area, so thanks for posting this. Some thoughts below. J. Storrs Hall, PhD. wrote: Runaway recursive self-improvement Moore's Law, underneath, is driven by humans. Replace human intelligence with superhuman

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/1/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The questions you asked above are predicated on a goal stack approach. You are repeating the same mistakes that I already dealt with. Some people would call it repeating the same mistakes I already dealt with. Some people would call it

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Hank Conn
On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goals of humanity, like all other species, was determined by evolution. It is to propagate the species. That's not the goal of humanity.

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-02 Thread Mark Waser
] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Friday, December 01, 2006 7:52 PM Subject: Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast? I've just finished a book on this subject, (coming out in May from Prometheus). I also had an extended conversation/argument about it with some smart people on another mailing list

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Mark Waser
On 12/1/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The questions you asked above are predicated on a goal stack approach. You are repeating the same mistakes that I already dealt with. Philip Goetz snidely responded Some people would call it repeating the same mistakes I already dealt

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/2/06, Mark Waser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Philip Goetz snidely responded Some people would call it repeating the same mistakes I already dealt with. Some people would call it continuing to disagree. :) Richard's point was that the poster was simply repeating previous points

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-02 Thread J. Storrs Hall, PhD.
- From: J. Storrs Hall, PhD. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast? I've just finished a book on this subject, (coming out in May from Prometheus). ... Thanks! The book, under the title Beyond AI: Creating the Conscience of the Machine, is an outgrowth

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Matt Mahoney
--- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I suppose the alternative is to not scan brains, but then you still have death, disease and

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Mark Waser
[WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?] --- Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt Mahoney wrote: I guess we are arguing terminology. I mean that the part of the brain which generates the reward/punishment signal for operant conditioning is not trainable. It is programmed

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Richard Loosemore
Philip Goetz wrote: On 12/1/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The questions you asked above are predicated on a goal stack approach. You are repeating the same mistakes that I already dealt with. Some people would call it repeating the same mistakes I already dealt with. Some

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Richard Loosemore
--- Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt Mahoney wrote: I guess we are arguing terminology. I mean that the part of the brain which generates the reward/punishment signal for operant conditioning is not trainable. It is programmed only through evolution. There is no such

Re: Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Ben Goertzel
David... On 11/29/06, David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/30/06, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, This is certainly true, and is why in Novamente we use a goal stack only as one aspect of cognitive control... Ben, Could you elaborate for the list some of the nuances

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-02 Thread Matt Mahoney
--- Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am disputing the very idea that monkeys (or rats or pigeons or humans) have a part of the brain which generates the reward/punishment signal for operant conditioning. This is behaviorism. I find myself completely at a loss to know where

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Richard Loosemore
Hank Conn wrote: Yes, now the point being that if you have an AGI and you aren't in a sufficiently fast RSI loop, there is a good chance that if someone else were to launch an AGI with a faster RSI loop, your AGI would lose control to the other AGI where the goals of the other AGI differed

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Richard Loosemore
James Ratcliff wrote: You could start a smaller AI with a simple hardcoded desire or reward mechanism to learn new things, or to increase the size of its knowledge. That would be a simple way to programmaticaly insert it. That along with a seed AI, must be put in there in the beginning.

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Samantha Atkins
On Nov 30, 2006, at 12:21 PM, Richard Loosemore wrote: Recursive Self Inmprovement? The answer is yes, but with some qualifications. In general RSI would be useful to the system IF it were done in such a way as to preserve its existing motivational priorities. How could the system

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Samantha Atkins
On Nov 30, 2006, at 10:15 PM, Hank Conn wrote: Yes, now the point being that if you have an AGI and you aren't in a sufficiently fast RSI loop, there is a good chance that if someone else were to launch an AGI with a faster RSI loop, your AGI would lose control to the other AGI where the

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Matt Mahoney
--- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The further the actual target goal state of that particular AI is away from the actual target goal state of humanity, the worse. The goal of ... humanity... is that the AGI implemented that will have the strongest RSI curve also will be such that its

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Hank Conn
On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The further the actual target goal state of that particular AI is away from the actual target goal state of humanity, the worse. The goal of ... humanity... is that the AGI implemented that will have

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Hank Conn
This seems rather circular and ill-defined. - samantha Yeah I don't really know what I'm talking about at all. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to: http://v2.listbox.com/member/?list_id=303

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-01 Thread Philip Goetz
On 12/1/06, J. Storrs Hall, PhD. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't think so. The singulatarians tend to have this mental model of a superintelligence that is essentially an analogy of the difference between an animal and a human. My model is different. I think there's a level of universality,

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Matt Mahoney
--- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 12/1/06, Matt Mahoney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goals of humanity, like all other species, was determined by evolution. It is to propagate the species. That's not the goal of humanity. That's the goal of the evolution of humanity, which

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-12-01 Thread J. Storrs Hall, PhD.
On Friday 01 December 2006 20:06, Philip Goetz wrote: Thus, I don't think my ability to follow rules written on paper to implement a Turing machine proves that the operations powering my consciousness are Turing-complete. Actually, I think it does prove it, since your simulation of a Turing

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Richard Loosemore
Samantha Atkins wrote: On Nov 30, 2006, at 12:21 PM, Richard Loosemore wrote: Recursive Self Inmprovement? The answer is yes, but with some qualifications. In general RSI would be useful to the system IF it were done in such a way as to preserve its existing motivational priorities.

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Richard Loosemore
Matt Mahoney wrote: I guess we are arguing terminology. I mean that the part of the brain which generates the reward/punishment signal for operant conditioning is not trainable. It is programmed only through evolution. There is no such thing. This is the kind of psychology that died out at

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-12-01 Thread Richard Loosemore
Matt Mahoney wrote: --- Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The further the actual target goal state of that particular AI is away from the actual target goal state of humanity, the worse. The goal of ... humanity... is that the AGI implemented that will have the strongest RSI curve also will

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-30 Thread James Ratcliff
You could start a smaller AI with a simple hardcoded desire or reward mechanism to learn new things, or to increase the size of its knowledge. That would be a simple way to programmaticaly insert it. That along with a seed AI, must be put in there in the beginning. Remember we are not just

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-30 Thread James Ratcliff
Also could both or any of you describe a little bit more the idea or your goal-stacks and how they should/would function? James David Hart [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/30/06, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, This is certainly true, and is why in Novamente we use a goal stack

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-30 Thread Hank Conn
On 11/19/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hank Conn wrote: Yes, you are exactly right. The question is which of my assumption are unrealistic? Well, you could start with the idea that the AI has ... a strong goal that directs its behavior to

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-30 Thread Richard Loosemore
Hank Conn wrote: [snip...] I'm not asserting any specific AI design. And I don't see how a motivational system based on large numbers of diffuse constrains inherently prohibits RSI, or really has any relevance to this. A motivation system based on large numbers of

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-30 Thread Hank Conn
On 11/30/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hank Conn wrote: [snip...] I'm not asserting any specific AI design. And I don't see how a motivational system based on large numbers of diffuse constrains inherently prohibits RSI, or really has any relevance to

Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-29 Thread Philip Goetz
On 11/19/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goal-stack AI might very well turn out simply not to be a workable design at all! I really do mean that: it won't become intelligent enough to be a threat. Specifically, we may find that the kind of system that drives itself using

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-29 Thread Ben Goertzel
Richard, This is certainly true, and is why in Novamente we use a goal stack only as one aspect of cognitive control... ben On 11/29/06, Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/19/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The goal-stack AI might very well turn out simply not to be

Re: Re: Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-29 Thread David Hart
On 11/30/06, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard, This is certainly true, and is why in Novamente we use a goal stack only as one aspect of cognitive control... Ben, Could you elaborate for the list some of the nuances between [explicit] cognitive control and [implicit]

Motivational Systems of an AI [WAS Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?]

2006-11-19 Thread Richard Loosemore
Hank Conn wrote: Yes, you are exactly right. The question is which of my assumption are unrealistic? Well, you could start with the idea that the AI has ... a strong goal that directs its behavior to aggressively take advantage of these means It depends what

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-11-17 Thread Richard Loosemore
Hank Conn wrote: Here are some of my attempts at explaining RSI... (1) As a given instance of intelligence, as defined as an algorithm of an agent capable of achieving complex goals in complex environments, approaches the theoretical limits of efficiency for this class of algorithms,

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-11-17 Thread Hank Conn
On 11/17/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hank Conn wrote: Here are some of my attempts at explaining RSI... (1) As a given instance of intelligence, as defined as an algorithm of an agent capable of achieving complex goals in complex environments, approaches the theoretical

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-11-17 Thread Hank Conn
On 11/17/06, Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hank Conn wrote: On 11/17/06, *Richard Loosemore* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hank Conn wrote: Here are some of my attempts at explaining RSI... (1) As a given instance of

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-11-16 Thread Matt Mahoney
I think this is a topic for the singularity list, but I agree it could happen very quickly. Right now there is more than enough computing power on the Internet to support superhuman AGI. One possibility is that it could take the form of a worm.

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-11-16 Thread Russell Wallace
On 11/16/06, Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How fast could RSI plausibly happen? Is RSI inevitable / how soon will it be? How do we truly maximize the benefit to humanity? The concept is unfortunately based on a category error: intelligence (in the operational sense of ability to get

Re: [agi] RSI - What is it and how fast?

2006-11-16 Thread Hank Conn
On 11/16/06, Russell Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/16/06, Hank Conn [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How fast could RSI plausibly happen? Is RSI inevitable / how soon will it be? How do we truly maximize the benefit to humanity? The concept is unfortunately based on a category error: