Re: [agi] How should an AGI ponder about mathematics

2007-04-23 Thread Mike Tintner
John: Our brains are good I mean they are us but aren't they just biological blobs of goop that are half-assed excuses for intelligence? I mean why are AGI's coming about anyway? Is it because our brains are awesome and fulfill all of our needs? No. We need to be uploaded otherwise we

Re: [agi] How should an AGI ponder about mathematics

2007-04-24 Thread Mike Tintner
How will it handle the Mid-East crisis? God comes crying to me every night about that one. I tell Him to shut up, be a Man and get on with it. Or the Iraq crisis? As for humanising the US gun laws - even God doesn't go there. How will it sell more Coke, or get Yahoo back on top of Google?

Re: [agi] Torboto - the Torture Robot

2007-04-24 Thread Mike Tintner
I like the thoughts here. My hunch is that the human ability to learn new activities is based on conceiving all of them as goal-seeking journeys, in which we have try to find the way.to our goals, using a set of basic paths and series of basic steps, [literally steps, if you're walking

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-04-25 Thread Mike Tintner
Nobody came back on my suggestion for a much simpler AGI test. Let's call it the Neo-Maze Test. You program a robot rover or simulation robot with flexible rules to run fairly basic-type mazes, including mazes with multiple solutions. The test is then whether it can run very different kinds

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-04-25 Thread Mike Tintner
Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?] Mike Tintner writes: Let's call it the Neo-Maze Test. I think this type of test is pretty interesting; the objection if any is whether the capabilities of this robot are really getting toward what we would like to consider general

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-04-25 Thread Mike Tintner
Ben, People need a clear goal for your activity, so that they can decide whether it's worth pursuing even if only from the sidelines. It's a fundamental need for every activity we engage in... to answer: what's the point? And it's also a fundamental tendency when formulating goals is

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-04-25 Thread Mike Tintner
for a domain, or chatbots? #3 Video game characters or robots are an AGI as well, but how limiting are they if they dont have complex language skills to be given and learn ever increasingly complex tasks to do. Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nobody came back on my suggestion

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test - P.S.

2007-04-25 Thread Mike Tintner
complex tasks to do. Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nobody came back on my suggestion for a much simpler AGI test. Let's call it the Neo-Maze Test. You program a robot rover or simulation robot with flexible rules to run fairly basic-type mazes, including mazes with multiple

Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence

2007-04-26 Thread Mike Tintner
You guys are driving me nuts. Jumping in at the middle, here goes: Intelligence is the capacity to solve problems. (An intelligent agent solves problems in order to reach its goals) Problems occur when an agent must select between two or more paths to reach its goals. Cognitive problems (in

Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence

2007-04-26 Thread Mike Tintner
vagueness.. - Original Message - From: Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2007 9:58 PM Subject: Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence Mike Tintner wrote: You guys are driving me nuts. Jumping in at the middle, here goes

Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence

2007-04-26 Thread Mike Tintner
Message - From: Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 12:34 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence Mike Tintner wrote: It's driving me nuts because it's basically simple. Mike, you are getting the wrong end

Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence

2007-04-27 Thread Mike Tintner
Yes, all intelligent systems (i.e. living creatures) have a psychoeconomy of goals - important point. But in solving any particular problem, they may be dealing with only one or two goals at a time. Have measures of intelligence mentioned, included: 1) the depth of the problem - the number

Re: [agi] Sony's QRIO robot

2007-04-27 Thread Mike Tintner
) as a team in adequately subtle and complicated ways. For instance in World of Warcraft, an individual NPC can emulate an individual human player, much better than a team of NPCs can emulate a team of human players. -- BenG On 4/27/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Er

Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence

2007-04-27 Thread Mike Tintner
Interesting but, if I've understood the Universal Intelligence paper, there are 3 major flaws. 1) It seems to assume that intelligence is based on a rational, deterministic program - is that right? Adaptive intelligence, I would argue, definitely isn't. There isn't a rational, right way to

Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence - who cares?

2007-04-27 Thread Mike Tintner
pray tell which errors [The Emotion Machine BTW contains a v. rough proposal for an AGI, human-like system which was formally put together in a separate paper] - Original Message - From: Benjamin Goertzel To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Friday, April 27, 2007 8:42 PM Subject:

Re: [agi] rule-based NL system

2007-04-28 Thread Mike Tintner
Disagree. The brain ALWAYS tries to make sense of language - convert it into images and graphics. I see no area of language comprehension where this doesn't apply. I was just reading a thread re the Symbol gorund P on another group - I think what's fooling people into thinking purely

Re: [agi] rule-based NL system

2007-04-28 Thread Mike Tintner
these these as equally strange as a sighted person? The man climbed the penny The mat sat on the cat The teapot broke the bull -- From: Mike Tintner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 10:42 AM

Re: [agi] Circular definitions of intelligence

2007-04-28 Thread Mike Tintner
Shane, Little bit confusing here - perhaps too general and unfocussed to pursue really But interestingly while you deny that the given conception of intelligence is rational and deterministic.. you then proceed to argue rationally and deterministically. First, that there IS a right way to

Re: [agi] rule-based NL system

2007-04-28 Thread Mike Tintner
. -- From: Mike Tintner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, April 28, 2007 12:43 PM To: agi@v2.listbox.com Subject: Re: [agi] rule-based NL system Classic objection. The answer is that blind people can draw - reasonably faithful outline objects. Experimentally tested

[agi] HOW ADAPTIVE ARE YOU [NOVAMENTE] BEN?

2007-04-29 Thread Mike Tintner
OK, here I think is the simplest test of adaptivity that cuts right to the heart of the matter, and provides the most central measure of ADAPTIVE (i.e. DIVERGENT) intelligence as distinct from CONVERGENT, algorithmic intelligence. My assumption: your system has this agent/guy moving around a

[agi] Re: HOW ADAPTIVE ARE YOU [NOVAMENTE] BEN? P.S.

2007-04-29 Thread Mike Tintner
Ah.. I didn't get the test quite right. It isn't simply how many alternative ways can you find of achievng any goal? You might have pre-specified a vast number of ways of moving from A to B for the system. The test is: how many NEW (non-specified) alternative ways can you find of achieving

Re: [agi] HOW ADAPTIVE ARE YOU [NOVAMENTE] BEN?

2007-04-29 Thread Mike Tintner
pedantic or literal. - Original Message - From: Mike Dougherty [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Sunday, April 29, 2007 6:21 PM Subject: Re: [agi] HOW ADAPTIVE ARE YOU [NOVAMENTE] BEN? On 4/29/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: He has a simple task: Move from

Re: [agi] HOW ADAPTIVE ARE YOU [NOVAMENTE] BEN?

2007-04-29 Thread Mike Tintner
Mike, There is something fascinating going on here - if you could suspend your desire for precision, you might see that you are at least half-consciously offering contributions as well as objections. (Tune in to your constructive side). I remember thinking that you were probably

[agi] MONISTIC, CLOSED-ENDED AI VS PLURALISTIC, OPEN-ENDED AGI

2007-04-30 Thread Mike Tintner
This exchange below that with Mike D focussed another key issue of AGI which I'd like comments back on. My impression is: AI has been strangled by a rationalistic desire to be RIGHT - to get the right answer every time. This can be called psychological/ behavioural monism. This desire is

Re: [agi] MONISTIC, CLOSED-ENDED AI VS PLURALISTIC, OPEN-ENDED AGI

2007-04-30 Thread Mike Tintner
obvious rejoinder: how can you have correct handling of uncertainty? Perhaps you mean effective/ most effective available. But it's worth picking up on, because there is a fundamental contradiction here in many thinkers - i.e. it may well be that people are still caught between two eras

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-04-30 Thread Mike Tintner
Yes, you are very right. And my point is that there are absolutely major philosophical issues here - both the general philosophy of mind and epistemology, and the more specific philosophy of AI. In fact, I think my characterisation of the issue as one of monism [general - behavioural as well

Re: [agi] MONISTIC, CLOSED-ENDED AI VS PLURALISTIC, OPEN-ENDED AGI

2007-04-30 Thread Mike Tintner
I should point out something amazing that has gone on here in all these conversations re language images. No one seems to understand the basic semiotic fact that language has no intrinsic reference or relation to the real world WHATSOEVER. The linguistic sign bears NO RELATION WHATSOEVER to

Re: [agi] MONISTIC, CLOSED-ENDED AI VS PLURALISTIC, OPEN-ENDED AGI

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
MD:What does warm look like? How about angry or happy? Can you draw a picture of abstract or indeterminate? I understand (i think) where you are coming from, and I agree wholeheartedly - up to the point where you seem to imply that a picture of something is the totality of its character. I

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
a program that can deal with uncertainty and is adaptive and can think irrationally at times.. Seems like an awful lot of things.. how should we organize all this? How do we take existing solutions for some of these problems and make sure new ones can get added .. --- Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [agi] MONISTIC, CLOSED-ENDED AI VS PLURALISTIC, OPEN-ENDED AGI

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
with words - but it doesn't work. - Original Message - From: Derek Zahn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 2:32 PM Subject: Re: [agi] MONISTIC, CLOSED-ENDED AI VS PLURALISTIC, OPEN-ENDED AGI Mike Tintner writes: It goes ALL THE WAY. Language

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
existing solutions for some of these problems and make sure new ones can get added .. --- Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, you are very right. And my point is that there are absolutely major philosophical issues here - both the general philosophy of mind and epistemology

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
.listbox.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The role of incertainty On 5/1/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Define the type of problems it addresses which might be [for all I know] *understanding and precis-ing a set of newspaper stories about politics or sewage

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
IN the final analysis, Ben, you're giving me excuses rather than solutions. Your pet control program is a start - at least I have a vague, still v. vague idea of what you might be doing. You could (I'm guessing) say : this AGI is designed to control a pet which will have to solve adaptive

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
Nah, analogy doesn't quite work - though could be useful. An engine is used to move things... many different things - wheels, levers, etc. So if you've got an engine that is twenty times more powerful, sure you don't need to tell me what particular things it is going to move. It's generally

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
No, I keep saying - I'm not asking for the odd narrowly-defined task - but rather defining CLASSES of specific problems that your/an AGI will be able to tackle. Part of the definition task should be to explain how if you can solve one kind of problem, then you will be able to solve other

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
Wang [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2007 7:08 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The role of incertainty On 5/1/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The difficulty here is that the problems to be solved by an AI or AGI machine are NOT accepted, well-defined. We cannot

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-01 Thread Mike Tintner
of incertainty On 5/1/07, Benjamin Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/1/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, I keep saying - I'm not asking for the odd narrowly-defined task - but rather defining CLASSES of specific problems that your/an AGI will be able to tackle

Re: [agi] rule-based NL system

2007-05-02 Thread Mike Tintner
information. Please take the time to try to understand what I'm saying rather than putting up ridiculous strawmen. - Original Message - From: Mike Tintner To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2007 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [agi] rule-based NL system

Re: [agi] What would motivate you to put work into an AGI project?

2007-05-02 Thread Mike Tintner
Bo M: - A way to switch between representations and thinking processes when one set of methods fails. This would keep expert knowledge in one domain connected to expert knowledge from other domains. What if any approaches to MULTI-DOMAIN thinking actually exist, or have been tried?

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-03 Thread Mike Tintner
generation AGI accomplishing other than the ones I mentioned? James Ratcliff Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think you're thinking in too limited ways about the physical tasks, simulated or embodied - although that may be the fault of my definition. You don't, I would

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-03 Thread Mike Tintner
of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?] On 5/3/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: James, It's interesting - there is a general huge block here - and culture-wide - to thinking about intelligence in terms of problems as opposed to the means and media

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-03 Thread Mike Tintner
think your AGI design will work?] Mike Tintner wrote: James, It's interesting - there is a general huge block here - and culture-wide - to thinking about intelligence in terms of problems as opposed to the means and media of solution (or if you like the tasks vs the tools). Your list is all

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-03 Thread Mike Tintner
well, the AGI's or brain's sign or representation system is the heart of the matter - that's what will enable it to be adaptive (or not) and connect hitherto different ways of reaching, or moving (if it uses that concept) towards, goals. That seems to be the way Jeff Hawkins is thinking -

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-03 Thread Mike Tintner
Well, obviously, it's up to you what you want to discuss - but I don't think that what I'm asking for - the basic elements of the AGI's sign system - requires a lengthy paper. Jeff Hawkins' site has a page devoted to showing how his system derives its templates of dog - that gives you an idea

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-03 Thread Mike Tintner
Derek, Yes. Thanks. I had seen that. (And I still have to fully understand his system). But my question remains: where did you get your information about his system's FAILURES to recognize basic types? * Wow. Really? He can't recognize a basic dog / cat etc? Are you sure? Depends on

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-03 Thread Mike Tintner
, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?] Mike Tintner wrote: I have REPEATEDLY said I am talking about defining general problem classes, rather than setting narrow AI specialised problems. (Show me BTW where there has

Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?]

2007-05-04 Thread Mike Tintner
] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 3:14 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The University of Phoenix Test [was: Why do you think your AGI design will work?] Mike Tintner wrote: Er Richard, you are opening too many too large areas - we could be here till the end of the month. It seems to me you

Re: [agi] The role of incertainty

2007-05-04 Thread Mike Tintner
Is there any already existing competition in this area - virtual adaptive pets - that we can look at? - Original Message - From: Benjamin Goertzel To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Friday, May 04, 2007 4:46 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The role of incertainty 2. More specific

Re: [agi] The Picture Tree

2007-05-05 Thread Mike Tintner
, okay. ;-) ] Richard Loosemore. Mike Tintner wrote: Richard, My apologies for coming on too strong. Re psychosemiotics, if there were such a science, yes, it would probably come under cognitive psychology. Is there a need for such a science? Yes. See my picture theory below. But regardless

Re: [agi] The Picture Tree

2007-05-05 Thread Mike Tintner
figure out under the rug (or behind the curtain :-). Mark - Original Message - From: Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Saturday, May 05, 2007 7:09 AM Subject: [agi] The Picture Tree Richard, My apologies for coming on too strong. Re psychosemiotics

[agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-05 Thread Mike Tintner
YKY: Consciousness is not central to AGI . The human mind consists of a two-tier structure. On top, you have this conscious, executive mind that takes most of the decisions about which way the system will go - basically does the steering. On bottom, you have the unconscious, subordinate mind

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
On 5/6/07, YKY (Yan King Yin) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: YKY: Consciousness is not central to AGI . The human mind consists of a two-tier structure. On top, you have this conscious, executive mind that takes most

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
Consider a ship. From one point of view, you could separate the people aboard into two groups: the captain and the crew. But another just as reasonable point of view is that captain is just one member of the crew, albeit one distinguished in some ways. Really? Bush? Browne [BP, just

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
- From: Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:45 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind Mike Tintner wrote: And if you're a betting man, pay attention to Dennett. He wrote about Consciousness in the early 90's, together

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
: Richard Loosemore [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 4:38 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind Mike Tintner wrote: Now to the rational philosopher and scientist and to the classical AI person, this is all terrible (as well as flatly contradicting

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind Mike Tintner wrote: There is a crashingly obvious difference between a rational computer and a human mind - and the only way cognitive science has managed not to see it is by resolutely refusing to look at it, just as it resolutely refused to look

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
be taken as confused philosophical understanding on your side. ;-) Pei On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, there obviously IS a conscious, executive mind, separate from the unconscious mind, whatever the enormous difficulties cognitive sicentists had in first admitting its

Re: [agi] The Picture Tree

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
Richard, I don't think I'm not getting it at all. What you have here is a lot of good questions about how the graphics level of processing that I am proposing, might work. And I don't have the answers, and haven't really thought about them yet. What I have proposed is a general idea loosely

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
input tasks according to a task-specific algorithm. [If the above description still sounds confusing or contradictionary, you'll have to read my relevant publications. I don't have the intelligence to explain everything by email.] Pei On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pei, Thanks

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Sunday, May 06, 2007 9:09 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind Mike Tintner wrote: Cognitive science treats humans as thinking like computers - rationally, if boundedly rationally. Which part of cognitive science treats humans

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
Of course, a deterministic system could be designed to behave crazily. But WHY? No deterministic machine has ever been designed like that. What on earth would be your reason for deterministically designing such behaviour? And there is the small matter that there is NO EVIDENCE at all for a

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
are not entitled to take that tone. It's OK, you don't need to reply. My comment stemmed from my experience as a professional cognitive scientist. Please don't pull this kind of stunt. Mike Tintner wrote: Richard, Welcome to the Virtual Home for the NCSU Cognitive Science Program! Cognitive

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-06 Thread Mike Tintner
, May 06, 2007 11:45 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pei, I don't think there's any confusion here. Your system as you describe it IS deterministic. Whether an observer might be confused by it is irrelevant. Equally

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-08 Thread Mike Tintner
-specific algorithm. [If the above description still sounds confusing or contradictionary, you'll have to read my relevant publications. I don't have the intelligence to explain everything by email.] Pei On 5/6/07, Mike Tintner wrote: Pei, Thanks for stating

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-08 Thread Mike Tintner
I should have added -- the difference between options can be much greater than 5% - humans and, offhand, I imagine, most AGI's, couldn't begin to measure and compare options, with that degree of precision... for most decisions (not, of course, all) - This list is sponsored by AGIRI:

Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind

2007-05-08 Thread Mike Tintner
: Tuesday, May 08, 2007 6:36 PM Subject: Re: [agi] The Advantages of a Conscious Mind Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That would indeed be free, nondeterministic choice, which, as I understood, Pei ruled out for his system. The only qualifications are: * choosing randomly

[agi] Open-Source AGI

2007-05-10 Thread Mike Tintner
Just been looking at the vids. of last year's AGI conference. One thing really hit me from the panel talk - and that was: but, of course, only open-source AGI will ever work. Sorry, but all these ideas of individual systems, produced by teams of - what? - say, twenty individuals at most -

Re: [agi] Open-Source AGI

2007-05-11 Thread Mike Tintner
: A. T. Murray [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 4:55 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Open-Source AGI Mike Tintner wrote: The greatest challenge - and these are my first, very stumbling thoughts here - is to find ways that people can work together on the overall problem

Re: [agi] Open-Source AGI...P.S.

2007-05-11 Thread Mike Tintner
I should add that part of the creative challenge of developing an integrational structure for AGI is to develop one that will allow CREATIVE minds to work together - and not just hacks a la Wikip. - and enable them to integrate whole sets of major new inventions and innovations. And that too,

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-11 Thread Mike Tintner
Josh: Thus Tommy. My robotics project discards a major component of robotics that is apparently dear to the embodiment crowd: Tommy is stationary and not autonomous As Daniel Wolpert will tell you, the sea squirt devours its brain as soon as it stops moving. In the final and the first analysis,

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-11 Thread Mike Tintner
MT;In the final and the first analysis, the brain is a device for controlling movement Josh: Only half, even in a hunter/gatherer context. The other half is participation in the social process, which in its essence is pure communication. The social point/dimension is true, as covered in a

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-11 Thread Mike Tintner
Josh, Since the 90s there has been a strand in AI research that claims that robotics is necessary to the enterprise, based on the notion that having a body is necessary to intelligence. Symbols, it is said, must be grounded in physical experience to have meaning. Without such grounding AI

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-11 Thread Mike Tintner
intelligence) logic vs analogy SIGN SYSTEMS/ MEDIA literacy vs artistic education (symbolic vs image media media ) What Josh: On Friday 11 May 2007 03:06:52 pm Mike Tintner wrote: ... the mind/body era inaugurated by Descartes ( the first scientific revolution) is coming

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-11 Thread Mike Tintner
is still playing out, including in the current battles of AI.. What Josh: On Friday 11 May 2007 03:06:52 pm Mike Tintner wrote: ... the mind/body era inaugurated by Descartes ( the first scientific revolution) is coming to an end right across our culture? Dualism was intellectually

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-12 Thread Mike Tintner
, taking humans out of the loop doesn't sound like a good choice for AGI development at the moment, unless you have a concrete design to show us otherwise. Pei On 5/11/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Josh, Since the 90s there has been a strand in AI research that claims that robotics

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-12 Thread Mike Tintner
/robot that is only fractionally as exploratory. - Original Message - From: J Storrs Hall, PhD [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 12:41 PM Subject: Re: [agi] Tommy On Friday 11 May 2007 08:55:12 pm Mike Tintner wrote: ...All these machines you

Re: [agi] Tommy

2007-05-12 Thread Mike Tintner
Josh:My major hobby-horse in this area is that a concept has to be an active machine, capable of recognition, generation, inference, and prediction. This sounds very like Jeff Hawkins, (just reading On Intelligence now). Do you see your position as generally accepted, or at the forefront of

Re: [agi] All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain

2007-05-12 Thread Mike Tintner
Bob M: Minsky says that one of the key things which an intelligent system ought to be able to do is reason by analogy. His thoughts tumbled in his head, making and breaking alliances like underpants in a dryer without Cling Free. I agree - analogy is central to AGI, hugely important. Ben

Re: [agi] All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain

2007-05-13 Thread Mike Tintner
, broadly, to support my ideas.. - Original Message - From: Benjamin Goertzel To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Saturday, May 12, 2007 7:22 PM Subject: Re: [agi] All these moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain Mike Tintner, Firstly, to ground your discussion of analogy

[agi] Quick Hawkins Questions

2007-05-13 Thread Mike Tintner
Here's a link to a lecture of his that's clearer than anything I've read (incl. the book): http://mitworld.mit.edu/video/316/ Bottom line: his system can recognize simple objects from outline drawings - like dog, cup. That seems to be the only concrete claim he's making right now. There's no

Re: [agi] Quick Hawkins Questions

2007-05-14 Thread Mike Tintner
- From: Benjamin Goertzel To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Monday, May 14, 2007 3:58 AM Subject: Re: [agi] Quick Hawkins Questions On 5/13/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a link to a lecture of his that's clearer than anything I've read (incl. the book): http

Re: [agi] Determinism

2007-05-14 Thread Mike Tintner
dc: I have never been impressed by complicated formulas and I have been many slick (Math) talking people who couldn't produce anything that worked in the real world. Ben: A fascinating Freudian slip! ;-) Wow - you're the first AI person I've come across with any Freudian perspective. Minsky

Re: [agi] definitions of intelligence, again?!

2007-05-15 Thread Mike Tintner
I too very largely and strongly agree with what Pei says below. But in all this discussion, it looks like one thing is being missed (please correct me). The task is to define TWO kinds of intelligence not just one - you need a dual not just a single definition of intelligence. Everyone seems

Re: [agi] definitions of intelligence, again?!

2007-05-15 Thread Mike Tintner
/15/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I too very largely and strongly agree with what Pei says below. But in all this discussion, it looks like one thing is being missed (please correct me). The task is to define TWO kinds of intelligence not just one - you need a dual not just a single

Re: [agi] definitions of intelligence, again?!

2007-05-15 Thread Mike Tintner
%20page/Undergraduate/yearthree/Developmental/6- Original Message - From: Pei Wang [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: agi@v2.listbox.com Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:17 AM Subject: Re: [agi] definitions of intelligence, again?! On 5/15/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am suggesting

Re: [agi] definitions of intelligence, again?!

2007-05-15 Thread Mike Tintner
Ben, Am a little confused here - not that we're not talking very roughly along the same lines and about the same areas. It's just that for me conceptual blending is simply a form of analogy, which we've just discussed (and one that works by sensory/imaginative rather than symbolic analogy).

Re: [agi] analogy, blending, and creativity

2007-05-16 Thread Mike Tintner
Josh : A blend is more like designing a helicopter by combining a dragonfly and a car. You take the general shape and behavior of the dragonfly, and the size, interior seats, driver controls, etc, from a car. In general in a blend you start with B and C without an A. Both relations B-D and

Re: [agi] analogy, blending, and creativity

2007-05-16 Thread Mike Tintner
Josh . If you'd read the archives, you'd see that I've advocated constructive solid geometry in Hilbert spaces as the basic representational primitive. Would you like to say more re your representational primitives? Sounds interesting. The archives have no reference to constructive solid

Re: [agi] definitions of intelligence, again?!

2007-05-17 Thread Mike Tintner
Pei: This just shows the complexity of the usual meaning of the word intelligence --- many people do associate with the ability of solving hard problems, but at the same time, many people (often the same people!) don't think a brute-force solution show any intelligence. Shane: I think

Re: [agi] Intelligence vs Efficient Intelligence

2007-05-17 Thread Mike Tintner
Pei, I don't think these distinctions between terms really matter in the final analysis - right, optimal etc. What I'm assuming, however you define it, is that you are saying that AI can find one solution that is better than others under conditions of insufficient knowledge/uncertainty - and

Re: [agi] Intelligence vs Efficient Intelligence

2007-05-17 Thread Mike Tintner
. On 5/17/07, Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pei: AI is about what is the best solution to a problem if the system has INSUFFICIENT knowledge and resources. Just so. I have just spent the last hour thinking about this area, and you have spoken the line I allotted

Re: [agi] Pure reason is a disease.

2007-05-23 Thread Mike Tintner
P.S. Eric, I haven't forgotten your question to me, will try to address it in time - the answer is complex. - This list is sponsored by AGIRI: http://www.agiri.org/email To unsubscribe or change your options, please go to:

Re: [agi] Pure reason is a disease.

2007-05-23 Thread Mike Tintner
Eric, The point is simply that you can only fully simulate emotions with a body as well as a brain. And emotions while identified by the conscious brain are felt with the body I don't find it at all hard to understand - I fully agree - that emotions are generated as a result of

[agi] The Importance of Pride Shame for AGI

2007-05-26 Thread Mike Tintner
Marvin Minsky:Memes. Once you have a species with social transmission of information, then evolution continues on a higher level. The idea here is that the emotions of Pride and Shame evolved as a result of the competition -- inside our species -- between different sets of contagious ideas. MT: I

[agi] Introducing Systems AGI Systems Psychology

2007-05-30 Thread Mike Tintner
Derek Zahn: you have to have a theory of mind One of the interesting things about current AGI projects like Ben's Stan F's (is there any other?) is that they do indeed constitute not so much theories as models of mind - illustrated by charts in Ben's essay on Kurzweil's site. In essence,

[agi] Is the Digital Processor Really Analog?

2007-06-02 Thread Mike Tintner
Just read s.o. arguing en passant that digital processors are really analog, and disguised to be digital. What does that mean? Does it mean that what computers really do is compare patterns of electrons rather than discrete symbols with meaning? - that's it only when symbols (like words and

Re: [agi] Minimally ambiguous languages

2007-06-05 Thread Mike Tintner
Except that Ogden only included a very few verbs [be , have , come - go , put - take , give - get , make , keep , let , do , say , see , send , cause and because are occasionally used as operators; seem was later added.] So in practice people use about 60 of the nouns as verbs diminishing the

Re: [agi] Minimally ambiguous languages

2007-06-05 Thread Mike Tintner
Fax: (+27)-(0)21-6502280 Office: Leslie Commerce 4.21 Mike Tintner [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2007/06/05 16:48:32 Except that Ogden only included a very few verbs [be , have , come - go , put - take , give - get , make , keep , let , do , say , see , send , cause and because are occasionally

Re: [agi] about AGI designers

2007-06-06 Thread Mike Tintner
Peter Voss: Our goal is to create full AGI... Do you have a proof-of-concept to use your term? Hawkins has a simple one for his HTM - he shows his system can recognize objects from simple line drawings. That simple will do to begin with.. Novamente, from what I've seen, doesn't have one -

Re: [agi] about AGI designers

2007-06-06 Thread Mike Tintner
Ben, I'd be looking for a totally different proof-of-concept for AGI. (I brought in Hawkins - not to rehash our arguments - because I consider him an example of good proof-of-concept practice). I'd be looking for proof of higher adaptivity (to use Peter's term). If Peter Voss' Maze Explorer

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