Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Metareport

[Timon Walshe-Grey]

Well, R217 does say, "Where the text is silent, inconsistent, or unclear, it is 
to be augmented by game custom, common sense, past judgements, and 
consideration of the best interests of the game." Just from the fact that we're 
arguing about it, the text is evidently unclear, and Officeholder not being a 
switch doesn't seem very sensible to me, to say nothing of the game's best 
interests.

Though, if you really want to break things, I think another way to interpret 
R2162 and R1006 is that, because R1006 states (while taking precedence over 
R2162) that Officeholder is a switch, it implies that Officeholder meets all 
the requirements defined in R2162 _even if it actually doesn't_. In other 
words, R1006 both specifies a default value for Officeholder (because R2162 
says it surely must) and simultaneously doesn't (as we can see by simply 
reading it).

Admittedly, the above paradox is a little tongue-in-cheek, but just in case, I 
call the following three CFJs:
- "Officeholder is a switch."
- "Officeholder is a switch with a default value."
- "Officeholder is a switch with a default value specified in Rule 1006."

And I believe switches being accidentally set to indeterminate values is 
exactly what gamestate convergences were designed for. On which topic, I 
intend, with 3 Agoran Consent, to designate as a convergence Aris' appointment 
of omd as Distributor. Hopefully that absolves Murphy of the responsibility of 
working out exactly when omd ceased to be Distributor, or the Distributor 
Officeholder ceased to exist, if indeed either of those things happened.

Finally, since I'm here, I vote [Publius Scribonius Scholasticus] in the 
ongoing Herald election and [Corona] in the ongoing Registrar election.

Now I'm going to bed. Hopefully Agora will have failed to implode by the time I 
wake up.

-twg
​​

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On July 8, 2018 10:35 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

> ​​  
> 
> This is a very interesting case. I'm not sure your logic works
> 
> because R2162 contains the definition of a switch, and rules that
> 
> use terms defined elsewhere (like R1006) inherently defer to their
> 
> definitions if the definitions are of the same power. (combo of R1030
> 
> and R217).
> 
> Think about it this way, for this exact situation: what exactly has
> 
> the Distributor officeholder switch self-ratified as? The switch rule
> 
> states that report, by not containing "Distributor" officeholder switch,
> 
> implies that Distributor is at its "default value". But no default is
> 
> defined so... what did it ratify to? If you don't use the R2162
> 
> definition, you get some kind of indeterminate/unknown value...?
> 
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2018, Timon Walshe-Grey wrote:
> 
> > It's rule 1006, "Offices", that says Officeholder is a switch, and it's 
> > rule 2162, "Switches", that (indirectly) says it's not. Rule 1030, 
> > "Precedence between Rules", gives a handy algorithm for resolving 
> > contradictions between rules:
> > 
> > -   Compare their powers (Not useful, they're both power 2.0)
> > -   Do they both defer to a different rule for determining precedence? (No, 
> > not as far as I can see)
> > -   Does one rule state that it defers to the other? (No)
> > -   Compare their ID numbers (So rule 1006 takes precedence over rule 2162.)
> > 
> > Since the "Offices" rule takes precedence, Officeholder is a switch, 
> > regardless of what the "Switches" rule has to say about it. At least I 
> > think that's how it works. Someone should probably check my logic.
> > 
> > (Of course, we should probably remove the contradiction - and probably 
> > increase the power of 2162 because this seems like a prolific source of 
> > loopholes - but I don't believe there's anything to immediately panic 
> > about.)
> > 
> > -twg
> > 
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > 
> > On July 8, 2018 9:45 PM, Kerim Aydin ke...@u.washington.edu wrote:
> > 
> > > Erk.
> > > 
> > > If the July 1 ADoP Report self-ratified, then ratification beats the
> > > 
> > > Distributor rule in ratifying the Distributor officeholder at its default
> > > 
> > > value.
> > > 
> > > EXCEPT. Double-erk. R1006 doesn't explicitly define a default value for
> > > 
> > > Officeholder switches. Either we indirectly infer "vacant" as the
> > > 
> > > default (questionable), or Officeholder isn't a Switch at all, because by
> > > 
> > > R2162(2), a switch must designate a default value in order to be a switch.
> > > 
> > > Dunno if I'm missing something basic ... but if Officeholder isn't
> > > 
> > > actually a switch ---ok Aris, now that's the sort of thing you can call
> > > 
> > > a crisis.
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 8 Jul 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > > 
> > > > CoE: The Distributor is an office.
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 5:26 PM Edward Murphy emurph...@zoho.com wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > =Metareport=
> > > > > 
> > > > > You can find an up-to-date version of this report at
> > > > > 
> > > > > 

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Metareport

[Aris Merchant]

I intend, without objection, to make omd Distributor. If officeholder isn't
a switch, then we need to make it one, and adjust the gamestate to what it
would have been if it had been a switch for as long as we thought it was. I
might also suggest removing the default value requirement for switches, and
replacing it with a strong recommendation, since this seems to be a common
source of bugs.

See, I know how to respond to crises. :) Vote Aris for PM!

-Aris


On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 2:45 PM Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> Erk.
>
> If the July 1 ADoP Report self-ratified, then ratification beats the
> Distributor rule in ratifying the Distributor officeholder at its default
> value.
>
> EXCEPT.  Double-erk.  R1006 doesn't explicitly define a default value for
> Officeholder switches.  Either we indirectly infer "vacant" as the
> default (questionable), or Officeholder isn't a Switch at all, because by
> R2162(2), a switch must designate a default value in order to be a switch.
>
> Dunno if I'm missing something basic ... but if Officeholder isn't
> actually a switch ---ok Aris, now *that's* the sort of thing you can call
> a crisis.
>
> On Sun, 8 Jul 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > CoE: The Distributor is an office.
> > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 5:26 PM Edward Murphy  wrote:
> > >
> > > =Metareport=
> > > You can find an up-to-date version of this report at
> > > http://zenith.homelinux.net/adop/report.php
> > >
> > > Date of last report: 2018-07-02
> > > Date of this report: 2018-07-08
> > >
> > >
> > > MISCELLANEOUS INFO
> > >
> > >
> 
> > > Filled offices: 10/13 (76.92%)
> > > Total officers: 7
> > > Consolidation[1]: 1.43
> > > Late reports: 3/10 (30.00%)
> > >
> 
> > > [1] This is the number of filled offices divided by the number of
> > > officers. At 1, this means that all offices are filled by different
> > > players; if it reached the number of filled offices, that would mean
> > > that all offices are filled by one player.
> > >
> > >
> > > OFFICES
> > >
> > > Office Holder[1]  Since Last Election
> > > -
> > > ADoP   Murphy 2018-01-182018-01-18
> > > ArbitorMurphy 2018-01-282018-01-28
> > > Assessor   G. 2018-02-062018-02-27
> > > Cartographor   Trigon 2018-02-24(never)
> > > Herald*G. 2018-06-25(ongoing)
> > > Prime Minister*(vacant)   2018-07-05[2] (ongoing)
> > > Promotor   Aris   2016-10-212017-09-21
> > > RefereeVJ Rada2018-07-022018-07-02
> > > Registrar *(vacant)   2018-07-01[2] (ongoing)
> > > Rulekeepor*(vacant)   2018-07-01[2] 2018-07-08
> > > SpeakerG. 2018-07-022014-04-21
> > > Tailor ATMunn 2018-05-092018-05-09
> > > Treasuror  twg2018-06-242018-06-24
> > >
> 
> > > [1] * = Interim office (vacant or holder not elected)
> > > [2] Vacant since this date
> > > [3] Currently imposed
> > >
> > >
> > > WEEKLY REPORTS
> > >
> > > Office ReportLast Published Late[1]
> > >
> 
> > > ADoP   Offices   2018-07-02[2]
> > > ArbitorJudicial matters  2018-07-08
> > > Cartographor   Land of Arcadia   2018-07-02
> > > Herald Matters of Honour 2018-07-05
> > > Promotor   Proposal pool 2018-07-05
> > > RefereeRule violations   2018-06-24 !
> > > Registrar  Players, Fora 2018-06-24
>  (vacant)
> > > Rulekeepor Short Logical Ruleset 2018-06-12
>  (vacant)
> > > Treasuror  Coins, other currencies   2018-07-04
> > >
> 
> > > [1] ! = 1 period missed, !! = 2, !!! = 3+
> > > [2] Not including this report
> > >
> > > MONTHLY REPORTS
> > >
> > > Office ReportLast Published Late
> > >
> 
> > > Herald Patent titles 2018-06-10
> > > Registrar  Player history2018-06-12
>  (vacant)
> > > Rulekeepor Full Logical Ruleset  2018-06-06
>  (vacant)
> > > Tailor Ribbons   2018-06-12
> > >
> 
> > >
> > >
> > > ELECTIONS
> > >
> > > Office Initiated   Phase   Candidates
> > >
> 
> > > Herald 2018-07-02  

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Metareport

[Owen Jacobson]

Upheld. I issue V.J Rada a Green Card by summary judgement for violating rule 
2496 (“Rewards”).

-o

> On Sep 14, 2017, at 8:15 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> I point a finger at VJ Rada and recommend Green Card.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 1:56 AM, VJ Rada  > wrote:
> ugh too late. I guess issue me a card, although I can't point a finger.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
> >
> >> On Sep 13, 2017, at 7:53 PM, VJ Rada  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I claim the reward for this.
> >
> > From recently-enacted proposal 7845:
> >
> >> Amend R2496 "Rewards" by, at the end of the first paragraph, adding:
> >>
> >>  When a player claims a reward, e SHALL list the number of shinies e
> >>  receives, or it is INEFFECTIVE.
> >
> > -o
> >
> 
> 
> 
> --
> >From V.J. Rada
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Metareport

[Cuddle Beam]

I point a finger at VJ Rada and recommend Green Card.

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 1:56 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:

> ugh too late. I guess issue me a card, although I can't point a finger.
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 9:53 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> >> On Sep 13, 2017, at 7:53 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >>
> >> I claim the reward for this.
> >
> > From recently-enacted proposal 7845:
> >
> >> Amend R2496 "Rewards" by, at the end of the first paragraph, adding:
> >>
> >>  When a player claims a reward, e SHALL list the number of shinies e
> >>  receives, or it is INEFFECTIVE.
> >
> > -o
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [ADoP] Metareport

[V.J Rada]

Note: the rules only state "The Herald is then authorized to award
those persons the Patent Title of Champion.". I don't believe there's
a requirement there.

On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 6 Sep 2017, V.J Rada wrote:
>> I won't accept or deny this until e responds.
>>
>> Unrelated, are you voting on the elections other than Herald?
>
> Yah I'll vote when I see if there's multiple people who want any of
> these or not.  competitive elections are more fun  :)
>
>
>



-- 
>From V.J Rada