Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sgeo]

Any thoughts on testing any plans? Either for real, by telling /b/
about Agora, or simulation (let several players control 1,000
first-class players, and a way to guard against the fallout when the
simulation ends).

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Ed Murphy]

Taral wrote:

> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Ed Murphy  wrote:
>> And that's different from the set of standing/sitting players how?
> 
> Because the set of standing/sitting players changes constantly. The
> standing court is changed periodically, probably on the scale of
> months.

So it would basically be a set of fungible offices?  Hrm.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Taral]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 7:07 PM, Ed Murphy  wrote:
> And that's different from the set of standing/sitting players how?

Because the set of standing/sitting players changes constantly. The
standing court is changed periodically, probably on the scale of
months.

-- 
Taral 
"Please let me know if there's any further trouble I can give you."
-- Unknown

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Scam Safety

[Ed Murphy]

coppro wrote:

> Aaron Goldfein wrote:
>> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
>>> Elliott Hird wrote:
 Bad Promotor! You're meant to make it hard for scammers...
>>> It does!
>>>
>> how?
> By preventing people from piling on top of an existing scam. This makes
> it easier for the original people to pull it off safely, but reduces the
> amount of time the scam remains public and unfixed.

Many people avoid that anyway because plagiarism is Bad Form, but of
course this doesn't always work.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sean Hunt]

Ed Murphy wrote:
> coppro wrote:
> 
>> Actually, I just realized that one of the voting-limit 0 methods (which
>> basically involves the Grand Poobah pulling out a very illegal but very
>> valid machine gun) doesn't rely on the Senate.
> 
> Doesn't stop the invaders from democratizing the invasion proposal.
> 
Hrm.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Ed Murphy]

coppro wrote:

> Actually, I just realized that one of the voting-limit 0 methods (which
> basically involves the Grand Poobah pulling out a very illegal but very
> valid machine gun) doesn't rely on the Senate.

Doesn't stop the invaders from democratizing the invasion proposal.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sgeo]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> comex wrote:
>> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
>>> Actually, I just realized that one of the voting-limit 0 methods (which
>>> basically involves the Grand Poobah pulling out a very illegal but very
>>> valid machine gun) doesn't rely on the Senate.
>>
>> Surely this only works on ordinary proposals.
> Yes, but an Ordinary proposal has sufficient power to exile anyone (the
> more I think of it, the more I come to think that this hole should be
> seriously considered a bug and fixed. I shouldn't have the ability to
> exile every other player in the game.)
>
Yes, but ordinary proposals can be forced Democratic by invaders..

DIS: Re: BUS: I'm baaack

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:48 PM, Benjamin Caplan
 wrote:
> I come off hold.
>
>
> All actions in this message are to be taken as maximally severable.
>
>
> I have 428 Coins.
>
> I withdraw from the PBA a 1 crop and a 3 crop [for 193+185 = 378 Coins.]
>
>
> Murphy has 4229 Coins.
>
> I act on behalf of Murphy to cause em to withdraw from the PBA each of
> the following:
>
> 5 0 Crops [for  83+ 84+ 85+ 86+ 87         =  425 Coins]
> 4 1 Crops [for 194+195+196+197             =  782 Coins]
> 4 3 Crops [for 186+187+188+189             =  750 Coins]
> 5 7 Crops [for 131+132+133+134+135         =  665 Coins]
> 5 9 Crops [for  78+ 79+ 80+ 81+ 82         =  400 Coins]
> 7 WRV     [for 151+152+153+154+155+156+157 = 1078 Coins]
>
>          [Total:                            4100 Coins.]
>
>
> [These estimates assume that the PNP's report on April 20 was correct,
> and that the only changes to that state between then and the beginning
> of this message were the automatic adjustments on April 27.]
>
>
> Pavitra
>
>

I believe this makes you the Speaker.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Scam Safety

[Sean Hunt]

Aaron Goldfein wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
>> Elliott Hird wrote:
>>> Bad Promotor! You're meant to make it hard for scammers...
>> It does!
>>
> how?
By preventing people from piling on top of an existing scam. This makes
it easier for the original people to pull it off safely, but reduces the
amount of time the scam remains public and unfixed.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Scam Safety

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> Elliott Hird wrote:
>> Bad Promotor! You're meant to make it hard for scammers...
>
> It does!
>
how?

Re: DIS: Proto-Contract: Industrial Bank & Agora

[comex]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:54 PM, Benjamin Caplan
 wrote:
> comex wrote:
>>   Repeats:   (a nonnegative integer, or infinity; default 1)
> [...]
>> An Offer with zero Repeats is automatically destroyed.
> As was pointed out on IRC, this won't ever happen. Try "When an Offer
> with one Repeat is filled, instead of its 'Repeats' field being
> decreased, the Offer is destroyed."

I changed it from 'positive' to 'nonnegative' so this shouldn't be a problem.

>> Note: Please do not cast a vote like ISELL(8 zm - AGAINST)*8, as this
>> won't do what you think.
> ISELL(1 zm - AGAINST)*8, however, may be desirable -- so much so, in
> fact, that it might be worth working out a clearer syntax for it.
> Perhaps 8*ISELL(1 zm each - AGAINST).

True.  I was thinking of that, but the current language forces ISELL
to be up to the voting limit-- 8*ISELL would sell all your votes eight
separate times, almost certainly resulting in a breach of contract.  I
guess I may as well reword it to allow separate vote selling, although
it's unlikely to occur in practice.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sean Hunt]

comex wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
>> Actually, I just realized that one of the voting-limit 0 methods (which
>> basically involves the Grand Poobah pulling out a very illegal but very
>> valid machine gun) doesn't rely on the Senate.
> 
> Surely this only works on ordinary proposals.
Yes, but an Ordinary proposal has sufficient power to exile anyone (the
more I think of it, the more I come to think that this hole should be
seriously considered a bug and fixed. I shouldn't have the ability to
exile every other player in the game.)

DIS: Re: BUS: I'm baaack

[Sean Hunt]

Benjamin Caplan wrote:
> [These estimates assume that the PNP's report on April 20 was correct,
> and that the only changes to that state between then and the beginning
> of this message were the automatic adjustments on April 27.]
> 
> 
> Pavitra
> 
I don't believe they were.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[comex]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:43 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> Actually, I just realized that one of the voting-limit 0 methods (which
> basically involves the Grand Poobah pulling out a very illegal but very
> valid machine gun) doesn't rely on the Senate.

Surely this only works on ordinary proposals.

Re: DIS: Proto-Contract: Industrial Bank & Agora

[Benjamin Caplan]

comex wrote:
>   Repeats:   (a nonnegative integer, or infinity; default 1)
[...]
> An Offer with zero Repeats is automatically destroyed.
As was pointed out on IRC, this won't ever happen. Try "When an Offer
with one Repeat is filled, instead of its 'Repeats' field being
decreased, the Offer is destroyed."

> Note: Please do not cast a vote like ISELL(8 zm - AGAINST)*8, as this
> won't do what you think.
ISELL(1 zm - AGAINST)*8, however, may be desirable -- so much so, in
fact, that it might be worth working out a clearer syntax for it.
Perhaps 8*ISELL(1 zm each - AGAINST).



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sean Hunt]

Ed Murphy wrote:
> coppro wrote:
> 
>> Benjamin Caplan wrote:
>>> Aaron Goldfein wrote:
 On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> There are two separate methods by
> which the Agoran Senate can recover Agora from an invasion by reducing
> every invader's voting limit to 0. Once this is done, it's simple to
> pass a proposal exiling the invaders.
 Unless the invaders wait 60 days to spring their trap.
>>> This is the real flaw: our current rules are secure against obvious
>>> invasions, and if the invaders are non-obvious, then by the time they
>>> become obvious it will be too late to do anything about it.
>>>
>>> The only real way around this would be to make acts of war platonically
>>> IMPOSSIBLE, but this would arguably make Agora no longer a nomic.
>>>
>>> Note that this is an issue with 'real' governments as well -- see the
>>> often ridiculous hoops to which immigrants are generally subjected.
>>>
>>> Pavitra
>>>
>> There's another (scammy) means by which an invasion can be prevented
>> from making changes, but it would result in an effective stalemate in Agora.
> 
> What do you have in mind?  Bear in mind that the invaders can deputise
> for the Assessor.
> 
Actually, I just realized that one of the voting-limit 0 methods (which
basically involves the Grand Poobah pulling out a very illegal but very
valid machine gun) doesn't rely on the Senate.

DIS: Re: BUS: Nomic relations

[Quazie]

On May 1, 2009, at 6:18 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:


I intend, without objection, to flip the Recognition of Internomic II
 to Neutral.
I intend, without objection, to flip the Recognition of Fresh Nomic
 to Neutral. (Note,  
however,
that there seems to be no way to inform Fresh Nomic of anything  
without
joining it, due to the way its rules are structured; therefore, I'd  
most

likely try to send messages to it by informing some of its players
directly.)
I intend, with Agoran Consent, to act on behalf of Agora to cause  
Agora

to join Internomic II.

--
ais523
Ambassador



I support all of it.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sean Hunt]

Ed Murphy wrote:
> coppro wrote:
> 
>> Benjamin Caplan wrote:
>> There's another (scammy) means by which an invasion can be prevented
>> from making changes, but it would result in an effective stalemate in Agora.
> 
> What do you have in mind?  Bear in mind that the invaders can deputise
> for the Assessor.
> 
Hmmm... actually, it doesn't work. I misread the rules.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[comex]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:01 PM, Benjamin Caplan
 wrote:
> Edna is a professor of law, and decides to teach a course on nomic. She
> requires her students to register in Agora and submit a quota of
> proposals each week. Alice is one of her TAs. The students tend strongly
> to vote with Edna in hopes of improving their grades.

This would be a very fun scenario!

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Ed Murphy]

coppro wrote:

> Benjamin Caplan wrote:
>> Aaron Goldfein wrote:
>>> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
 There are two separate methods by
 which the Agoran Senate can recover Agora from an invasion by reducing
 every invader's voting limit to 0. Once this is done, it's simple to
 pass a proposal exiling the invaders.
>>> Unless the invaders wait 60 days to spring their trap.
>> This is the real flaw: our current rules are secure against obvious
>> invasions, and if the invaders are non-obvious, then by the time they
>> become obvious it will be too late to do anything about it.
>>
>> The only real way around this would be to make acts of war platonically
>> IMPOSSIBLE, but this would arguably make Agora no longer a nomic.
>>
>> Note that this is an issue with 'real' governments as well -- see the
>> often ridiculous hoops to which immigrants are generally subjected.
>>
>> Pavitra
>>
> There's another (scammy) means by which an invasion can be prevented
> from making changes, but it would result in an effective stalemate in Agora.

What do you have in mind?  Bear in mind that the invaders can deputise
for the Assessor.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Scam Safety

[Sean Hunt]

Elliott Hird wrote:
> Bad Promotor! You're meant to make it hard for scammers...

It does!

DIS: Re: BUS: Scam Safety

[Elliott Hird]

Bad Promotor! You're meant to make it hard for scammers...

On 2009-05-02, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> I agree to the following:
>
> {{
> This is a pledge entitled Security Clearance.
>
> This pledge imposes no duties on anyone unless coppro is Promotor. If e
> is not, e may amend this pledge by announcement. If e is, e may amend
> without 3 objections, and any player may amend it with 1.5 Agoran Consent.
>
> Any player other than coppro may join or leave this pledge by announcement.
>
> A player can submit privately to coppro a Proposal as if e were
> publishing it to a Public Forum. E SHOULD explain why the Proposal needs
> to be kept from the Agoran public, and include any specific instructions
> as to its distribution. If coppro feels that the Proposal is of
> sufficient gravity to remain hidden, it becomes a COSMIC TOP SECRET
> Proposal. Submitting a proposal for considerations of Security
> constitutes agreement to this contract.
>
> coppro CAN act on behalf of the submitter to submit a COSMIC TOP SECRET
> Proposal, but only if he distributes it in the same message. E SHALL NOT
> otherwise reveal its existence or its substance.
>
> If a COSMIC TOP SECRET Proposal is intended to fix a bug in the rules,
> coppro SHALL NOT reveal the bug to anyone unless the author authorizes
> em to do so, NOR SHALL e exploit it for es own gain or prevent the
> author or anyone specifically authorized by the author from exploiting
> it for eir own gain.
>
> A player may withdraw a COSMIC TOP SECRET Proposal by informing coppro
> that e does so. When e does, it ceases to be a COSMIC TOP SECRET
> Proposal and coppro's duties and privileges with terminate.
>
> coppro SHALL NOT use this contract to harvest scams for eir own good; e
> SHALL do it only for the good of Agora. Any actions taken by coppro that
> would result in people being unwilling to submit potential scams as
> COSMIC TOP SECRET Proposals due to fear e would use them should be
> considered heavily by an equity court.
> }}
>
> This allows someone planning a time-sensitive scam to submit a proposal
> without revealing it to Agora. I know of at least one scam that can only
> be done at the rollover of an Agoran Week, so distributing the scam
> /just/ prior and having the Assessor assess the fix /just/ before next
> week would leave a very small window for people to get in on it after
> they read the proposal.
>

Re: DIS: Proto-Contract: Industrial Bank & Agora

[Elliott Hird]

Add auto rates and I'm sold.

Sent from a sentient banana

On 2009-05-02, comex  wrote:
> The PBA, RBoA, and both Vote Markets are dead, which has made the
> economy a lot less interesting.  This is a draft for a replacement,
> which allows regular banking, trade offers, and vote selling.  Rates
> are manually set by the President (me) without two objections, and
> would be updated on a regular basis.  To prevent scams, you are only
> allowed to deposit about 10 assets per week before you start getting
> less and less cash; withdrawals are not affected.  Comments and
> suggestions are welcome, and I will most likely create the contract
> proper in a few days.
>
> ===
>
> I. IBA
>
> This is the Industrial Bank & Agora.  The currency of the IBA is
> zorkmids (zm); the recordkeepor of zorkmids is the President.
>
> Any person CAN join this contract by announcement.  Any party to this
> contract CAN leave it by announcement.
>
> The President of the IBA is comex.
>
> II. Banking
>
> Every asset has a Rate in zorkmids, intially zero.  The President's report
> includes a Rate List containing all nonzero Rates.
>
> III. Withdrawal
>
> A person CAN withdraw an asset in the IBA's possession if e has at
> least its Rate in zorkmids; those zorkmids are destroyed in eir
> possession and the IBA transfers the asset to em.
>
> IV. Deposits
>
> A person CAN deposit an asset by transferring it to the IBA; e then
> gains the Effective Rate in zorkmids.
>
> The Effective Rate for a deposit is its Rate, multiplied by a value
> depending on the number of previous deposits made in the same week
> with the same Executor, and rounded to the nearest integer:
>
> prevrate
>
> 1-6 1.00
> 7-9 0.80
> 10  0.73
> 11  0.62
> 12  0.50
> 13  0.38
> 14  0.26
> 15  0.18
> 16  0.12
> 17  0.08
> 18  0.05
> 19  0.03
> 20  0.02
> 21- 0.01
>
> V. Offers
>
> An Offer is an entity with three fields:
>   Selling:   (a nonempty list of assets and/or actions)
>   For cost:  (a nonempty list of assets and/or actions)
>   Repeats:   (a nonnegative integer, or infinity; default 1)
>
> A person CAN create an Offer by announcement, thus becoming its
> offerer.  A person CAN destroy an Offer for which e is the offerer by
> announcement.
>
> A person (the offeree) CAN fill an Offer by announcement if and only if:
>  - the offerer has the assets in the 'Selling' field (if any), and CAN
> perform
>the actions in that field (if any), and
>  - the offeree has the assets in the 'For cost' field (if any), and CAN
> perform
>the actions in that field (if any).
>
> When an Offer is filled,
> - the IBA acts on behalf of the offerer to transfer the assets in the
>   'Selling' field to the offeree, and to take the actions in the
>   'Selling' field, and
> - the IBA acts on behalf of the offeree to transfer the assets in the
>   'For cost' field to the offerer, and to take the actions in the 'For
>   cost' field, and
> - the Offer's 'Repeats' field is decreased by one.
>
> An Offer with zero Repeats is automatically destroyed.
>
> To intend to sell X for Y is to create an Offer with X as 'Selling'
> and Y as 'For cost'; to intend to buy X for Y is to create an Offer
> with X as 'For cost' and Y as 'Selling'; to intend to sell A*X for Y
> each is to create an Offer with X as 'Selling', Y as 'For cost', and A
> as 'Repeats'; etc.
>
> Examples:
> - I intend to sell a WRV for 8 zm.
> - I intend to sell 4 G# Credits for 2 zm each.
> - I intend buy a Land for 3 zm.
> - I intend to sell a WRV for a Land.
>
> VI. Voting as Action & ISELL
>
> When a Offer is filled that specifies voting on a certain Agoran
> decision in the 'Selling' or 'For cost' field, the offeree or offerer,
> respectively, retracts all eir votes on that decision and votes as
> specified by the other party a number of times equal to eir voting
> limit on the decision, and SHALL NOT retract those votes.
>
> Voting ISELL(X) on a decision is equivalent to intending to sell one's
> vote on that decision for X.
>
> Voting ISELL(X - Y) on a decision is equivalent to intending to sell
> one's vote on that decision for X, and then voting Y.
>
> Examples:
> - ISELL(8 zm)
> - ISELL(8 zm - AGAINST*8)
>
> Note: Please do not cast a vote like ISELL(8 zm - AGAINST)*8, as this
> won't do what you think.
>
> VII. Motions
>
> A motion is an entity which acts identically to an Agoran decision,
> except that the requirement that the voting period last at least seven
> days is waived, and, by default, the eligible voters are the parties
> to this contract, each eligible voter's voting limit is one, and the
> voting period lasts 72 hours.
>
> Any party CAN initiate a Motion to Amend, specifying a set of
> amendments to this contract.  For this motion, the adoption index is 2.
> If the option selected on a Motion to Amend is ADOPTED, this contract
> is amended as specified.
>
> VIII. Chan

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Who has gained points?

[Ed Murphy]

ais523 wrote:

> On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 17:44 -0400, comex wrote:
>> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Jonatan Kilhamn
>>  wrote:
>>> Okay. I terminate the pledge I just made about giving points for
>>> points (if I can).
>> Points are also a fixed currency, so you can't transfer them.
> 
> You can, but only in a limited fashion. See the last paragraph of rule
> 2179.

Which fails to take precedence over Rule 2166.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sean Hunt]

Benjamin Caplan wrote:
> Aaron Goldfein wrote:
>> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
>>> There are two separate methods by
>>> which the Agoran Senate can recover Agora from an invasion by reducing
>>> every invader's voting limit to 0. Once this is done, it's simple to
>>> pass a proposal exiling the invaders.
>> Unless the invaders wait 60 days to spring their trap.
> 
> This is the real flaw: our current rules are secure against obvious
> invasions, and if the invaders are non-obvious, then by the time they
> become obvious it will be too late to do anything about it.
> 
> The only real way around this would be to make acts of war platonically
> IMPOSSIBLE, but this would arguably make Agora no longer a nomic.
> 
> Note that this is an issue with 'real' governments as well -- see the
> often ridiculous hoops to which immigrants are generally subjected.
> 
> Pavitra
> 
There's another (scammy) means by which an invasion can be prevented
from making changes, but it would result in an effective stalemate in Agora.

-coppro

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Benjamin Caplan]

Aaron Goldfein wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
>> There are two separate methods by
>> which the Agoran Senate can recover Agora from an invasion by reducing
>> every invader's voting limit to 0. Once this is done, it's simple to
>> pass a proposal exiling the invaders.
> 
> Unless the invaders wait 60 days to spring their trap.

This is the real flaw: our current rules are secure against obvious
invasions, and if the invaders are non-obvious, then by the time they
become obvious it will be too late to do anything about it.

The only real way around this would be to make acts of war platonically
IMPOSSIBLE, but this would arguably make Agora no longer a nomic.

Note that this is an issue with 'real' governments as well -- see the
often ridiculous hoops to which immigrants are generally subjected.

Pavitra



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 9:13 PM, Sean Hunt  wrote:
> Benjamin Caplan wrote:
>> Elliott Hird wrote:
>>> 2009/5/1 Alex Smith :
 {{{
 Persons SHALL NOT join Agora for the primary purpose of invading or
 waging war against it, rather than participating in it in a constructive
 manner. This is the Class-12 Crime of Treason.
 }}}
>>> AGAINST; waaay too abusable.
>>
>> Although it's not immediately clear to me exactly how it would be
>> abused, I do think that at the very least "invading" should be more
>> clearly defined.
>>
>> There are a great number of difficult edge cases to consider. In
>> particular
>
> I think I agree with Pavitra here. There are two separate methods by
> which the Agoran Senate can recover Agora from an invasion by reducing
> every invader's voting limit to 0. Once this is done, it's simple to
> pass a proposal exiling the invaders.
>
> -coppro
>

Unless the invaders wait 60 days to spring their trap.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Sean Hunt]

Benjamin Caplan wrote:
> Elliott Hird wrote:
>> 2009/5/1 Alex Smith :
>>> {{{
>>> Persons SHALL NOT join Agora for the primary purpose of invading or
>>> waging war against it, rather than participating in it in a constructive
>>> manner. This is the Class-12 Crime of Treason.
>>> }}}
>> AGAINST; waaay too abusable.
> 
> Although it's not immediately clear to me exactly how it would be
> abused, I do think that at the very least "invading" should be more
> clearly defined.
> 
> There are a great number of difficult edge cases to consider. In
> particular

I think I agree with Pavitra here. There are two separate methods by
which the Agoran Senate can recover Agora from an invasion by reducing
every invader's voting limit to 0. Once this is done, it's simple to
pass a proposal exiling the invaders.

-coppro

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Ed Murphy]

Taral wrote:

> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Ed Murphy  wrote:
>> Define plz?  The last time I attempted to guess what you meant, we
>> went from 1871/10 (Turns for All) to 1871/11 (The Standing Court
>> aka Turns for All Volunteers), but you said that wasn't it.
> 
> A standing court is a small group of players (periodically
> changed/re-elected) that judge the majority of cases.

And that's different from the set of standing/sitting players how?

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Benjamin Caplan]

Elliott Hird wrote:
> 2009/5/1 Alex Smith :
>> {{{
>> Persons SHALL NOT join Agora for the primary purpose of invading or
>> waging war against it, rather than participating in it in a constructive
>> manner. This is the Class-12 Crime of Treason.
>> }}}
> 
> AGAINST; waaay too abusable.

Although it's not immediately clear to me exactly how it would be
abused, I do think that at the very least "invading" should be more
clearly defined.

There are a great number of difficult edge cases to consider. In
particular


Alice thinks that Agora is pretty neat, but could be better. She
registers with a bunch of ideas for improvement, and starts submitting
proposals.

Bob thinks that Agora would benefit from strong diplomatic relations
with PlaceholderNomic, possibly including each nomic holding some voting
power in the other. He establishes an embassy as an Agoran partnership
and buys its caste up to Gamma or so.

Carol thinks that Agora would benefit from Agora submitting to
PlaceholderNomic as a protectorate of PlaceholderNomic. She registers
and submits proposals to put the necessary formalities into the Agoran
ruleset.

Dave establishes a nomic club at his college, recruits a dozen or so
members, and they all register in Agora. Alice (see above) is one of the
members, and the rest of the club generally (but not unanimously) tends
to support her.

Edna is a professor of law, and decides to teach a course on nomic. She
requires her students to register in Agora and submit a quota of
proposals each week. Alice is one of her TAs. The students tend strongly
to vote with Edna in hopes of improving their grades.

Fritz is one of Edna's TAs, and is also Carol's boyfriend. He tries,
with moderate success, to persuade Edna of Carol's views.

Ginny has been a player of Agora for several years and is a respected
member of the community. She pulls a dictatorship scam culminating in
Agora becoming a protectorate of PlaceholderNomic.

Hugh has been a player of Agora for several years and is a respected
member of the community. He attempts to pull a dictatorship scam that
would culminate in Agora becoming a protectorate of PlaceholderNomic,
but the scam is ruled not to have worked.

Irma registers and executes a highly controversial scam. Many players
feel betrayed and deregister. Irma is appalled at the reaction.

Jason registers and executes a highly controversial scam. Many players
feel betrayed and deregister. Jason is delighted at the reaction.

Kim thinks Agora is entirely too serious and decides to introduce a
little B-style chaos. Her proposals pass without scam, but it is later
discovered that they rendered the game completely unplayable -- they
were Terrible Proposals. Kim is vaguely disappointed and moves on to
PlaceholderNomic.

Larry has been a player of Agora for several years and is a respected
member of the community. He claims, falsely, to register under a variety
of sockpuppet names. Using these votes, he forces through a proposal for
Agora to become a protectorate of PlaceholderNomic. The sockpuppets are
not revealed until well after all the relevant changes have ratified.


I don't immediately know for any of these cases whether or not the
hypothetical person is guilty of invasion or war against Agora under
ais523's proposed rule.



Pavitra



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

DIS: Re: BUS: [Enigma] Now officially a Champion's Contest!

[Sgeo]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> Zing! Vext cwm fly jabs Kurd qoph

Will we all get to learn what the Clues were?

DIS: Proto-Contract: Industrial Bank & Agora

[comex]

The PBA, RBoA, and both Vote Markets are dead, which has made the
economy a lot less interesting.  This is a draft for a replacement,
which allows regular banking, trade offers, and vote selling.  Rates
are manually set by the President (me) without two objections, and
would be updated on a regular basis.  To prevent scams, you are only
allowed to deposit about 10 assets per week before you start getting
less and less cash; withdrawals are not affected.  Comments and
suggestions are welcome, and I will most likely create the contract
proper in a few days.

===

I. IBA

This is the Industrial Bank & Agora.  The currency of the IBA is
zorkmids (zm); the recordkeepor of zorkmids is the President.

Any person CAN join this contract by announcement.  Any party to this
contract CAN leave it by announcement.

The President of the IBA is comex.

II. Banking

Every asset has a Rate in zorkmids, intially zero.  The President's report
includes a Rate List containing all nonzero Rates.

III. Withdrawal

A person CAN withdraw an asset in the IBA's possession if e has at
least its Rate in zorkmids; those zorkmids are destroyed in eir
possession and the IBA transfers the asset to em.

IV. Deposits

A person CAN deposit an asset by transferring it to the IBA; e then
gains the Effective Rate in zorkmids.

The Effective Rate for a deposit is its Rate, multiplied by a value
depending on the number of previous deposits made in the same week
with the same Executor, and rounded to the nearest integer:

prevrate

1-6 1.00
7-9 0.80
10  0.73
11  0.62
12  0.50
13  0.38
14  0.26
15  0.18
16  0.12
17  0.08
18  0.05
19  0.03
20  0.02
21- 0.01

V. Offers

An Offer is an entity with three fields:
  Selling:   (a nonempty list of assets and/or actions)
  For cost:  (a nonempty list of assets and/or actions)
  Repeats:   (a nonnegative integer, or infinity; default 1)

A person CAN create an Offer by announcement, thus becoming its
offerer.  A person CAN destroy an Offer for which e is the offerer by
announcement.

A person (the offeree) CAN fill an Offer by announcement if and only if:
 - the offerer has the assets in the 'Selling' field (if any), and CAN perform
   the actions in that field (if any), and
 - the offeree has the assets in the 'For cost' field (if any), and CAN perform
   the actions in that field (if any).

When an Offer is filled,
- the IBA acts on behalf of the offerer to transfer the assets in the
  'Selling' field to the offeree, and to take the actions in the
  'Selling' field, and
- the IBA acts on behalf of the offeree to transfer the assets in the
  'For cost' field to the offerer, and to take the actions in the 'For
  cost' field, and
- the Offer's 'Repeats' field is decreased by one.

An Offer with zero Repeats is automatically destroyed.

To intend to sell X for Y is to create an Offer with X as 'Selling'
and Y as 'For cost'; to intend to buy X for Y is to create an Offer
with X as 'For cost' and Y as 'Selling'; to intend to sell A*X for Y
each is to create an Offer with X as 'Selling', Y as 'For cost', and A
as 'Repeats'; etc.

Examples:
- I intend to sell a WRV for 8 zm.
- I intend to sell 4 G# Credits for 2 zm each.
- I intend buy a Land for 3 zm.
- I intend to sell a WRV for a Land.

VI. Voting as Action & ISELL

When a Offer is filled that specifies voting on a certain Agoran
decision in the 'Selling' or 'For cost' field, the offeree or offerer,
respectively, retracts all eir votes on that decision and votes as
specified by the other party a number of times equal to eir voting
limit on the decision, and SHALL NOT retract those votes.

Voting ISELL(X) on a decision is equivalent to intending to sell one's
vote on that decision for X.

Voting ISELL(X - Y) on a decision is equivalent to intending to sell
one's vote on that decision for X, and then voting Y.

Examples:
- ISELL(8 zm)
- ISELL(8 zm - AGAINST*8)

Note: Please do not cast a vote like ISELL(8 zm - AGAINST)*8, as this
won't do what you think.

VII. Motions

A motion is an entity which acts identically to an Agoran decision,
except that the requirement that the voting period last at least seven
days is waived, and, by default, the eligible voters are the parties
to this contract, each eligible voter's voting limit is one, and the
voting period lasts 72 hours.

Any party CAN initiate a Motion to Amend, specifying a set of
amendments to this contract.  For this motion, the adoption index is 2.
If the option selected on a Motion to Amend is ADOPTED, this contract
is amended as specified.

VIII. Changing the Rates

A Rate List is a list of assets and associated Rates.  To effect a
Rate List is to set the Rate of each asset in the list to the
specified value.

The President CAN effect a Rate List without two objections in 48
hours.  Any party CAN initiate a Motion to Effect, specifying a Rate
List.  For this motion, the ad

DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:29 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> Per discussion on ##nomic:
>
> I submit the following proposal (AI 1, II 1, Title="Counter-Invasion"):
> 
> Create a new power-1 rule with the following text:
> {{{
> Persons SHALL NOT join Agora for the primary purpose of invading or
> waging war against it, rather than participating in it in a constructive
> manner. This is the Class-12 Crime of Treason.
> }}}
> 
>
> [Note: Class set just high enough so that we can exile invaders via the
> courts. This was part of our old anti-invasion plan, but seems to have
> fallen by the wayside somehow.]
>
> --
> ais523
>
>

An emergency session should be required first.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [IADoP] Periodic Election (Anarchist)

[Jonatan Kilhamn]

2009/5/2 Aaron Goldfein :
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Jonatan Kilhamn
>  wrote:
>> 2009/5/2 Quazie :
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On May 1, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
>>>
 I nominate Tiger as Anarchist.
>>>
>>> I nominate myself.
>>>
>> NttPF
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Tiger
>>
>
> E simultaneously sent notices to both the business and discussion fora.
>
Oh.


-- 
-Tiger

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [IADoP] Periodic Election (Anarchist)

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:00 PM, Jonatan Kilhamn
 wrote:
> 2009/5/2 Quazie :
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 1, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
>>
>>> I nominate Tiger as Anarchist.
>>
>> I nominate myself.
>>
> NttPF
>
>
> --
> -Tiger
>

E simultaneously sent notices to both the business and discussion fora.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [IADoP] Periodic Election (Anarchist)

[Jonatan Kilhamn]

2009/5/2 Quazie :
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 1, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
>
>> I nominate Tiger as Anarchist.
>
> I nominate myself.
>
NttPF


-- 
-Tiger

DIS: Re: BUS: [IADoP] Periodic Election (Anarchist)

[Quazie]

Sent from my iPhone

On May 1, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Aaron Goldfein   
wrote:



I nominate Tiger as Anarchist.


I nominate myself.

Re: DIS: [Campaign Speech]

[Geoffrey Spear]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:04 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
> I don't see how those players not listed can be considered watchers.
> They didn't even respond to an email I sent asking if they are
> watching the game.

Proposal 5211, to remove people not paying attention from the Watchers
list, failed horribly.  It's the will of the people that the list
remain intact.

DIS: Re: OFF: [IADoP] Office Report

[Geoffrey Spear]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
> --
> SpeakerMurphy ???   1

since 6 April, I believe.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: No more cronjobs at midnight

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 4:31 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 16:21 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:
>>       An entity's share price index is a non-negative integer,
>>       defaulting to 0.  If an entity's share price index would become
>>       a negative value, it becomes 0.
> Attaching a tracked value to everything in existence is another mistake
> B made, which caused all sorts of problems. I suggest you limit this to
> a few defined classes of entities.

I'll be sure not to require the recordkeepor to track it when it's 0.
Non-zero values are already limited to entities that have issued
shares at some point, which by nature of the mechanism for doing so
limits it to players and former players.

-root

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: No more cronjobs at midnight

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 18:33 -0400, comex wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 16:21 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:
> >>   An entity's share price index is a non-negative integer,
> >>   defaulting to 0.  If an entity's share price index would become
> >>   a negative value, it becomes 0.
> > Attaching a tracked value to everything in existence is another mistake
> > B made, which caused all sorts of problems. I suggest you limit this to
> > a few defined classes of entities.
> 
> Citizenship is already such a value.

Oh dear, I wouldn't be against making it a person and player switch.
Slightly unwieldy, but possibly better than what we have now.

-- 
ais523

DIS: Re: BUS: [Enigma] Last week's results

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 3:55 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> I award 0 points to root (for Mastermind; colours in the wrong order).

It looks like the reason I got this wrong was because I mistakenly
reversed the black and white pegs -- I'm used to the black pegs
meaning "right color in the right place", and I didn't read closely
enough to realize the puzzle was using them the other way around.

It's interesting that I still got the right colors, just out of order.

-root

DIS: Re: OFF: [IADoP] Office Report

[comex]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:13 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
> Rulekeepor    comex      25 Apr 09    20 Apr 09  2

CoE: The II of the Rulekeepor office is 3.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: No more cronjobs at midnight

[comex]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 16:21 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:
>>       An entity's share price index is a non-negative integer,
>>       defaulting to 0.  If an entity's share price index would become
>>       a negative value, it becomes 0.
> Attaching a tracked value to everything in existence is another mistake
> B made, which caused all sorts of problems. I suggest you limit this to
> a few defined classes of entities.

Citizenship is already such a value.

DIS: Re: BUS: Fix a flaw in our anti-invasion plan

[Elliott Hird]

2009/5/1 Alex Smith :
> Per discussion on ##nomic:
>
> I submit the following proposal (AI 1, II 1, Title="Counter-Invasion"):
> 
> Create a new power-1 rule with the following text:
> {{{
> Persons SHALL NOT join Agora for the primary purpose of invading or
> waging war against it, rather than participating in it in a constructive
> manner. This is the Class-12 Crime of Treason.
> }}}
> 
>
> [Note: Class set just high enough so that we can exile invaders via the
> courts. This was part of our old anti-invasion plan, but seems to have
> fallen by the wayside somehow.]
>
> --
> ais523
>
>

AGAINST; waaay too abusable.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: No more cronjobs at midnight

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 16:21 -0600, Ian Kelly wrote:
>   An entity's share price index is a non-negative integer,
>   defaulting to 0.  If an entity's share price index would become
>   a negative value, it becomes 0.
Attaching a tracked value to everything in existence is another mistake
B made, which caused all sorts of problems. I suggest you limit this to
a few defined classes of entities.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: No more cronjobs at midnight

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
>      (8) A player CAN spend share value 25 to split eir shares; eir
>          share price index is halved (rounded down), and for each
>          share of eir issue, an additional share of eir issue is
>          created in the owner's possession.

Revision:

  (8) A player CAN spend share value X, where X is the total
  number of shares of eir issue in existence, to split eir
  shares; eir share price index is halved (rounded down), and
  for each share of eir issue, an additional share of eir
  issue is created in the owner's possession.

I made the action expensive because it's obviously powerful, but the
expense really needs to scale up.

-root

Re: DIS: [Campaign Speech]

[Elliott Hird]

2009/5/1 Aaron Goldfein :
> I don't see how those players not listed can be considered watchers.
> They didn't even respond to an email I sent asking if they are
> watching the game. And Wooble, if you do become registrar and do
> decide to list those players who did not respond to the email, that it
> is worth noting that one (antonio.dolce...@yahoo.com) explicitly asked
> me to remove him from the Watchers list.
>

I would be satisfied by a People Who Actually Watch list and a People
Who Watch In Spirit Or Something list.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: No more cronjobs at midnight

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
> I'll vote FOR a proposal like this if it would also repeal notes and
> replace them with something new and interesting the day after.


Rough proto for a new economy.  Comments?

Retitle Rule 2126 as "Shares" and amend it to read:

  An entity's share price index is a non-negative integer,
  defaulting to 0.  If an entity's share price index would become
  a negative value, it becomes 0.

  Shares are a class of assets.  Ownership of shares is restricted
  to players.  If changes to caste are secured, then changes to
  shares and share price indices are secured with the same power
  threshold.

  Each share has exactly one issuer, which is an entity with a
  positive share price index.  The value of a share is equal to
  the share price index of its issuer.  If an entity's share price
  index becomes zero, all shares of eir issue are destroyed.
  Shares with the same issuer and the same owner are fungible.

  If one entity owns the majority of the shares of a second
  entity's issue, the former entity CAN perform actions on behalf
  of the second entity.

  Positive share price indexes are adjusted as follows:

  (1) At the end of each week, for each player, let X be the
  number of eir interested proposals that were adopted during
  that week, and let Y be the number of eir interested quorate
  proposals that were rejected during that week with VI >=
  AI/2.  Eir share price index is increased by 2X + Y.

  (2) At the end of each week, the share price index of each
  player who completed the non-empty set of weekly duties of
  at least one office during that week is increased by the
  highest interest index among all such offices.

  (3) At the end of each month, the share price index of each
  player who completed the non-empty set of monthly duties of
  at least one office during that month is increased by the
  highest interest index among all such offices.

  (4) At the end of each week, the share price index of each
  player who published at least one on-time judgement during
  that week is increased by the highest interest index among
  all such cases.

  (5) At the end of each week, the share price index of each
  player who gained at least one Point during that week is
  increased by one.

  (6) At the end of each week, the share price index of each
  contestmaster who awarded at least one Point during that
  week is increased by one.

  (7) At the end of each week, the share price index of each
  player who authored at least one proposal with an Interest
  Index of 2 that passed during that week is increased by one.

  (8) At the end of each week, the share price index of each
  player who authored at least one proposal with an Interest
  Index of 3 that passed during that week is increased by one.

  The rules may define ways for entities to spend (destroy)
  shares.  However, rules to the contrary notwithstanding, an
  entity CANNOT spend shares of eir own issue.  To spend "share
  value X" is to spend a set of shares with total value of at
  least X.  Shares CAN be spent as follows:

  (1) To "issue" shares is to create shares of one's own issue in
  one's own possession.  An entity with a share price index of
  0 CAN spend share value MN to set eir share price index to M
  and issue N shares, where M and N are positive integers.

  (2) A player CAN, except in the last 24 hours of a month, spend
  share value 3 to increase another non-Alpha player's caste
  by 1 level.

  (3) A non-Alpha player CAN spend share value 5 to increase eir
  own caste by 1 level.

  (4) A player CAN, except in the last 24 hours of a month, spend
  share value 3 to decrease another non-Savage player's caste
  by 1 level.

  (5) A non-Savage player CAN spend share value 5 to decrease eir
  own caste by 1 level.

  (6) A player CAN spend share value 1 to increase another
  player's voting limit on an ordinary proposal whose voting
  period is in progress by 1.

  (7) A player CAN spend share value 2 to increase eir voting
  limit on an ordinary proposal whose voting period is in
  progress by 1.

  (8) A player CAN spend share value 25 to split eir shares; eir
  share price index is halved (rounded down), and for each
  share of eir issue, an additional share of eir issue is
  created in the owner's possession.

Re: DIS: [Campaign Speech]

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 12:16 PM, Geoffrey Spear  wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Elliott Hird
>  wrote:
>> Incomplete watchers list :(
>
> Well, it's based on the last Registrar's Report.  I'd be happy to
> reconstruct the list from the old one.
>

I don't see how those players not listed can be considered watchers.
They didn't even respond to an email I sent asking if they are
watching the game. And Wooble, if you do become registrar and do
decide to list those players who did not respond to the email, that it
is worth noting that one (antonio.dolce...@yahoo.com) explicitly asked
me to remove him from the Watchers list.

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: [IADoP] Registrar Election

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 16:59 -0500, Aaron Goldfein wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Aaron Goldfein
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:44 PM, Aaron Goldfein 
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> I initiate an Agoran decision to choose the holder of the Registrar
> >> office. The eligible voters are the active players, the vote collector is
> >> the IADoP, and the candidates are Wooble and Yally.
> >
> > I vote for myself.
> 
> I retract this vote and cast no vote.

If you're doing this because you think you have no chance, you could
always drop out of the election to save time.

If there's a different reason, though, you might not want to. (In which
case, what is it, I wonder?)

-- 
ais523

DIS: Who has gained points?

[Jonatan Kilhamn]

I'm wondering about what constitutes gaining points for the purposes
of gaining notes - when someone wins by high score all points are
lowered, so that week almost noone has a net gain, but if it's
instantaneous gains that are counted then two players who are not
gaining points otherwise could give a point back and forth and so gain
a note each. Is there any consensus about this from earlier on, or
should I CFJ?

-- 
-Tiger

Re: DIS: Who has gained points?

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 23:19 +0200, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:
> I'm wondering about what constitutes gaining points for the purposes
> of gaining notes - when someone wins by high score all points are
> lowered, so that week almost noone has a net gain, but if it's
> instantaneous gains that are counted then two players who are not
> gaining points otherwise could give a point back and forth and so gain
> a note each. Is there any consensus about this from earlier on, or
> should I CFJ?

There isn't consensus from earlier on; personally, I think passing a
point back and forth to gain a Note is a pretty clever idea, really, and
the sort of loophole people who notice it tend to abuse until it's
fixed.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Who has gained points?

[comex]

Gaining assets is explicitly defined, transfers don't count.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 1, 2009, at 5:24 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:


On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 23:19 +0200, Jonatan Kilhamn wrote:

I'm wondering about what constitutes gaining points for the purposes
of gaining notes - when someone wins by high score all points are
lowered, so that week almost noone has a net gain, but if it's
instantaneous gains that are counted then two players who are not
gaining points otherwise could give a point back and forth and so  
gain

a note each. Is there any consensus about this from earlier on, or
should I CFJ?


There isn't consensus from earlier on; personally, I think passing a
point back and forth to gain a Note is a pretty clever idea, really,  
and

the sort of loophole people who notice it tend to abuse until it's
fixed.

--
ais523

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Who has gained points?

[Alex Smith]

On Fri, 2009-05-01 at 17:44 -0400, comex wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Jonatan Kilhamn
>  wrote:
> > Okay. I terminate the pledge I just made about giving points for
> > points (if I can).
> 
> Points are also a fixed currency, so you can't transfer them.

You can, but only in a limited fashion. See the last paragraph of rule
2179.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[comex]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:47 PM, Aaron Goldfein  wrote:
> Welcome to Agora, Manu. Is there any nickname you would like to use?

Clearly, he wants to be known as Melbourne.

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Aaron Goldfein]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Manuel Lanctot  wrote:

> I register.
>
> ~Manu
>

Welcome to Agora, Manu. Is there any nickname you would like to use?

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Who has gained points?

[comex]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 5:42 PM, Jonatan Kilhamn
 wrote:
> Okay. I terminate the pledge I just made about giving points for
> points (if I can).

Points are also a fixed currency, so you can't transfer them.

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Roger Hicks]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 14:46, Manuel Lanctot  wrote:
> I register.
>
> ~Manu
>

Welcome back!

BobTHJ

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Manuel Lanctot  wrote:
> I register.

Welcome back!

-root

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Ed Murphy]

Taral wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:36 PM, comex  wrote:
>> Self-recusals are already annoying and a waste of the judicial
>> system's time; I'd prefer if the reasons people recuse themselves
>> could be eliminated.  Proto: add new postures for players who want
>> some cases but not many.  Perhaps you can flip your posture to get one
>> case and then automatically lie down; perhaps you can get a case every
>> other rotation; etc.  Of course, judicial rank already partially
>> addresses this-- or it would, if people actually used it.
> 
> Standing court, anyone?

Define plz?  The last time I attempted to guess what you meant, we
went from 1871/10 (Turns for All) to 1871/11 (The Standing Court
aka Turns for All Volunteers), but you said that wasn't it.

DIS: Re: BUS: No more cronjobs at midnight

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> I submit the following proposal (titled "Ease the rush", AI 2, II 1):
> 
> Remove the text
> {{{
>          unless another player has already done so
>          during that Birthday.
> }}}
> from rule 2126.
> 
>
> Arguments: Loads of people have, or will have, sufficiently many Notes
> to do a Happy Birthday this Birthday; as it is, everyone's bound to try
> to send their message as soon as the birthday begins, and we'll have a
> huge mess figuring out who was first. Also, rushing to get there first
> isn't particularly interesting. I'm not sure what the best solution to
> this is: giving everyone the win is at least simple.

I'll vote FOR a proposal like this if it would also repeal notes and
replace them with something new and interesting the day after.

-root

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Roger Hicks]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 12:15, comex  wrote:
> On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:55 PM, Ian Kelly  wrote:
>> Judges used to be able to make themselves ineligible to judge specific
>> cases or classes of cases by announcement (including the class of all
>> cases; this was the original supine).  I think it was dropped as a
>> result of Zefram's major judicial reform of 2007.
>
> Proposal: Simple favored cases (AI=2)
>
> Append the following paragraph to Rule 1868 (Judge Assignment Generally):
>
>      A player CAN favor or disfavor a judicial case by announcement.
>      When assigning a judge to a judicial case, the CotC, if
>      possible, SHALL assign a player who has favored it and SHALL NOT
>      assign a player who has disfavored it.
>
There ya goyou just took the massive proposal I had running
through my mind and reduced it to a paragraph. Nice work. This will
have my vote.

BobTHJ

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Taral]

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:36 PM, comex  wrote:
> Self-recusals are already annoying and a waste of the judicial
> system's time; I'd prefer if the reasons people recuse themselves
> could be eliminated.  Proto: add new postures for players who want
> some cases but not many.  Perhaps you can flip your posture to get one
> case and then automatically lie down; perhaps you can get a case every
> other rotation; etc.  Of course, judicial rank already partially
> addresses this-- or it would, if people actually used it.

Standing court, anyone?

-- 
Taral 
"Please let me know if there's any further trouble I can give you."
-- Unknown

DIS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 2436 remanded to Taral by Murphy, coppro

[Taral]

I apologize for being late on this -- it's a very complex issue and
I'm very busy IRL at the same time...

-- 
Taral 
"Please let me know if there's any further trouble I can give you."
-- Unknown

DIS: Re: BUS: Interesting Recusals - one way or another.

[Ed Murphy]

Quazie wrote:

> I submit a proposal, entitled "Interesting Recusals - CotC" AI = 1.5
> with the following body.
> 
> Replace the following paragraph from R 2225
> 
>   When a player recuses emself from a judicial case whose interest
>   index equals eir rank, e CAN increase its interest index by 1 by
>   announcement.
> 
> with
> 
>   When a player recuses emself from a judicial case whose interest
>   index equals eir rank, the CotC CAN increase its interest index by 1 by
>   announcement.

Timing.  Repetition.  I am not the arbiter of what constitutes a
complex case; give this to the Justiciar instead.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Ian Kelly]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 11:48 AM, Quazie  wrote:
>> Or maybe, have a system under which people could "pre-recuse" themselves
>> from specific cases, so they couldn't be assigned them. (Different
>> people have different opinions on which cases are difficult; personally,
>> I don't think 2477 is at all hard, and root could have judged it
>> trivially were it not for the conflict of interest.)
>>
>> --
>> ais523
>>
>>
>
> The above system did exist at one point.  Don't remember the exact
> time period though.

Judges used to be able to make themselves ineligible to judge specific
cases or classes of cases by announcement (including the class of all
cases; this was the original supine).  I think it was dropped as a
result of Zefram's major judicial reform of 2007.

-root

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Quazie]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 12:09 PM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 21:36 -0400, comex wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Ed Murphy  wrote:
>> > Proposal:  May I please have another?
>> > (AI = 1.5, please)
>> >
>> > Amend Rule 1871 (The Standing Court) by appending this text:
>> >
>> >      A player who recuses emself without cause CAN flip eir posture
>> >      to standing by announcement in the same message, unless e has
>> >      already done so within the past week.
>>
>> Self-recusals are already annoying and a waste of the judicial
>> system's time; I'd prefer if the reasons people recuse themselves
>> could be eliminated.  Proto: add new postures for players who want
>> some cases but not many.  Perhaps you can flip your posture to get one
>> case and then automatically lie down; perhaps you can get a case every
>> other rotation; etc.  Of course, judicial rank already partially
>> addresses this-- or it would, if people actually used it.
>
> Or maybe, have a system under which people could "pre-recuse" themselves
> from specific cases, so they couldn't be assigned them. (Different
> people have different opinions on which cases are difficult; personally,
> I don't think 2477 is at all hard, and root could have judged it
> trivially were it not for the conflict of interest.)
>
> --
> ais523
>
>

The above system did exist at one point.  Don't remember the exact
time period though.

Re: DIS: [Campaign Speech]

[Geoffrey Spear]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 1:12 PM, Elliott Hird
 wrote:
> Incomplete watchers list :(

Well, it's based on the last Registrar's Report.  I'd be happy to
reconstruct the list from the old one.

Re: DIS: [Campaign Speech]

[Elliott Hird]

Incomplete watchers list :(

2009/5/1 Geoffrey Spear :
> Were I the registrar, I would publish the following:
>
> Registrar's Census
>
> Date of last report: Wed 29 Apr 09
> Date of this report: Fru 1 May 09
>
> Date of last ratification: Fri 4 Jul 08
> Date of report last ratified: Sun 29 Jun 08
>
> (All times are UTC)
>
> Recent events
> -
> Wed 22 Apr 10:34    - modulus registers
> Wed 22 Apr 20:36    - Nameless registers
> Thu 23 Apr 20:00    - woggle goes on hold
> Thu 23 Apr 21:34    - Yally makes Randy Olshaw inactive
> Fri 24 Apr 20:34    - ehird changes eir name to Arnold Bros
> Sat 25 Apr 17:06    - C-walker registers
> - time of last report -
> Mon 27 Apr          - Arnold Bros (est. 1905) becomes a Senator
> Mon 27 Apr 17:21:55 - Quazie registers
> Tue 28 Apr 15:10:55 - Ben Daniel registers
> Tue 28 Apr 19:59:36 - Schrodinger's Cat comes off hold
> Wed 29 Apr 21:52:52 - Human Point Two comes off hold
> --- future events -
> Fri 01 May 17:44    - Goethe may register
> Wed 06 May          - coppro will become a Senator
> Wed 06 May          - Spitemaster will become a Senator
> Sat 09 May          - pikhq will become a Senator
> Fri 15 May          - Tom will become a Senator
> Sat 23 May 02:31    - Rodlen will become a Senator
> Tue 26 May 20:35    - root will become a Senator
> Fri 05 Jun 04:20    - Randy Olshaw will become a Senator
> Sun 21 Jun 10:34    - modulus will become a Senator
> Sun 21 Jun 20:36    - Nameless will become a Senator
> Wed 24 Jun 17:06    - C-walker will become a Senator
> Fri 26 Jun 17:20    - Quazie will become a Senator
> Sat 27 Jun 15:10    - Ben Daniel will become a Senator
>
> FIRST-CLASS PLAYERS (32)
>
> Nickname                E-mail address                   Since   Status
> ---
> ais523                  ais...@bham.ac.uk                28 Apr 08    S
> Arnold Bros (est. 1905) penguinoftheg...@googlemail.com  26 Feb 09    S
> Ben Daniel              ...@bendaniel.us                 28 Apr 09
> Billy Pilgrim           bad.leprech...@gmail.com         22 Oct 08   SI
> BobTHJ                  pidge...@gmail.com               17 Jan 08    S
> comex                   com...@gmail.com                 01 May 07    S
> coppro                  ride...@gmail.com                07 Mar 09
> cmealerjr               cdm...@gmail.com                 26 Jan 09   SI
> C-walker                charles.w.wal...@googlemail.com  25 Apr 09
> Dvorak Herring          dvorak.herr...@gmail.com         10 Sep 08    S
> j                       ag...@jaycampbell.com            13 Dec 09   SI
> modulus                 da...@miradoiro.com              22 Apr 09
> Murphy                  emurph...@socal.rr.com           27 Oct 07    S
> Nameless                pr769...@hotmail.com             22 Apr 09
> OscarMeyr               ke...@verizon.net                04 Mar 02   SI
> Pavitra                 celestialcognit...@gmail.com     25 Jan 08   SI
> pikhq                   josi...@gmail.com                10 Mar 09   SI
> Quazie                  quazieno...@gmail.com            27 Apr 09
> Randy Olshaw            moronservi...@gmail.com          06 Apr 09    I
> Rodlen                  rodlenj...@gmail.com             24 Mar 09
> root                    ian.g.ke...@gmail.com            27 Mar 09
> Schrodinger's Cat       schrodingers.kat...@gmail.com    17 Nov 08    S
> Sgeo                    sgeos...@gmail.com               27 Jun 08    S
> Siege                   thesi...@gmail.com               26 Nov 08    S
> Spitemaster             benner...@gmail.com              07 Mar 09
> Taral                   tar...@gmail.com                 28 Apr 07    S
> Tiger                   jonatan.kilh...@gmail.com        04 Feb 09    S
> Tom                     ihope12...@gmail.com             16 Mar 09
> w1n5t0n                 chuckles11...@gmail.com          30 Nov 08   SI
> woggle                  woggl...@gmail.com               23 Dec 07   SI
> Wooble                  geoffsp...@gmail.com             16 Nov 07    S
> Yally                   aarongoldf...@gmail.com          07 Feb 09    S
>
> Status: I = Inactive  S = Senator
>
>
> SECOND-CLASS PLAYERS (5)
>
> Nickname                E-mail address                   Since   Status
> ---
> Bayes                   none                             01 Oct 08    I
> Human Point Two         quazieno...@gmail.com            20 Jun 08
> Normish Partnership 2   r...@normish.org                 12 Aug 08
> People's Bank of Agora  c/o PNP?                         14 Oct 08
> PerlNomic Partnership   perlno...@nomictools.com         21 Jan 08
>
> Status: I = nactive
>
>
> INACTIVE PLAYERS (9 + 1)
>
> Nickname                     Inactive since
> ---
> Billy Pilgrim                     01 Mar 09
> cmealerjr                         01 Mar 09
> j                       

DIS: [Campaign Speech]

[Geoffrey Spear]

Were I the registrar, I would publish the following:

Registrar's Census

Date of last report: Wed 29 Apr 09
Date of this report: Fru 1 May 09

Date of last ratification: Fri 4 Jul 08
Date of report last ratified: Sun 29 Jun 08

(All times are UTC)

Recent events
-
Wed 22 Apr 10:34- modulus registers
Wed 22 Apr 20:36- Nameless registers
Thu 23 Apr 20:00- woggle goes on hold
Thu 23 Apr 21:34- Yally makes Randy Olshaw inactive
Fri 24 Apr 20:34- ehird changes eir name to Arnold Bros
Sat 25 Apr 17:06- C-walker registers
- time of last report -
Mon 27 Apr  - Arnold Bros (est. 1905) becomes a Senator
Mon 27 Apr 17:21:55 - Quazie registers
Tue 28 Apr 15:10:55 - Ben Daniel registers
Tue 28 Apr 19:59:36 - Schrodinger's Cat comes off hold
Wed 29 Apr 21:52:52 - Human Point Two comes off hold
--- future events -
Fri 01 May 17:44- Goethe may register
Wed 06 May  - coppro will become a Senator
Wed 06 May  - Spitemaster will become a Senator
Sat 09 May  - pikhq will become a Senator
Fri 15 May  - Tom will become a Senator
Sat 23 May 02:31- Rodlen will become a Senator
Tue 26 May 20:35- root will become a Senator
Fri 05 Jun 04:20- Randy Olshaw will become a Senator
Sun 21 Jun 10:34- modulus will become a Senator
Sun 21 Jun 20:36- Nameless will become a Senator
Wed 24 Jun 17:06- C-walker will become a Senator
Fri 26 Jun 17:20- Quazie will become a Senator
Sat 27 Jun 15:10- Ben Daniel will become a Senator

FIRST-CLASS PLAYERS (32)

NicknameE-mail address   Since   Status
---
ais523  ais...@bham.ac.uk28 Apr 08S
Arnold Bros (est. 1905) penguinoftheg...@googlemail.com  26 Feb 09S
Ben Daniel  b...@bendaniel.us 28 Apr 09
Billy Pilgrim   bad.leprech...@gmail.com 22 Oct 08   SI
BobTHJ  pidge...@gmail.com   17 Jan 08S
comex   com...@gmail.com 01 May 07S
coppro  ride...@gmail.com07 Mar 09
cmealerjr   cdm...@gmail.com 26 Jan 09   SI
C-walkercharles.w.wal...@googlemail.com  25 Apr 09
Dvorak Herring  dvorak.herr...@gmail.com 10 Sep 08S
j   ag...@jaycampbell.com13 Dec 09   SI
modulus da...@miradoiro.com  22 Apr 09
Murphy  emurph...@socal.rr.com   27 Oct 07S
Namelesspr769...@hotmail.com 22 Apr 09
OscarMeyr   ke...@verizon.net04 Mar 02   SI
Pavitra celestialcognit...@gmail.com 25 Jan 08   SI
pikhq   josi...@gmail.com10 Mar 09   SI
Quazie  quazieno...@gmail.com27 Apr 09
Randy Olshawmoronservi...@gmail.com  06 Apr 09I
Rodlen  rodlenj...@gmail.com 24 Mar 09
rootian.g.ke...@gmail.com27 Mar 09
Schrodinger's Cat   schrodingers.kat...@gmail.com17 Nov 08S
Sgeosgeos...@gmail.com   27 Jun 08S
Siege   thesi...@gmail.com   26 Nov 08S
Spitemaster benner...@gmail.com  07 Mar 09
Taral   tar...@gmail.com 28 Apr 07S
Tiger   jonatan.kilh...@gmail.com04 Feb 09S
Tom ihope12...@gmail.com 16 Mar 09
w1n5t0n chuckles11...@gmail.com  30 Nov 08   SI
woggle  woggl...@gmail.com   23 Dec 07   SI
Wooble  geoffsp...@gmail.com 16 Nov 07S
Yally   aarongoldf...@gmail.com  07 Feb 09S

Status: I = Inactive  S = Senator


SECOND-CLASS PLAYERS (5)

NicknameE-mail address   Since   Status
---
Bayes   none 01 Oct 08I
Human Point Two quazieno...@gmail.com20 Jun 08
Normish Partnership 2   r...@normish.org 12 Aug 08
People's Bank of Agora  c/o PNP? 14 Oct 08
PerlNomic Partnership   perlno...@nomictools.com 21 Jan 08

Status: I = nactive


INACTIVE PLAYERS (9 + 1)

Nickname Inactive since
---
Billy Pilgrim 01 Mar 09
cmealerjr 01 Mar 09
j 01 Mar 09
OscarMeyr 27 Mar 09
Pavitra   17 Mar 09
pikhq 07 Apr 09
Randy Olshaw  23 Apr 09
w1n5t0n   02 Feb 09
w

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 21:36 -0400, comex wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Ed Murphy  wrote:
> > Proposal:  May I please have another?
> > (AI = 1.5, please)
> >
> > Amend Rule 1871 (The Standing Court) by appending this text:
> >
> >  A player who recuses emself without cause CAN flip eir posture
> >  to standing by announcement in the same message, unless e has
> >  already done so within the past week.
> 
> Self-recusals are already annoying and a waste of the judicial
> system's time; I'd prefer if the reasons people recuse themselves
> could be eliminated.  Proto: add new postures for players who want
> some cases but not many.  Perhaps you can flip your posture to get one
> case and then automatically lie down; perhaps you can get a case every
> other rotation; etc.  Of course, judicial rank already partially
> addresses this-- or it would, if people actually used it.

Or maybe, have a system under which people could "pre-recuse" themselves
from specific cases, so they couldn't be assigned them. (Different
people have different opinions on which cases are difficult; personally,
I don't think 2477 is at all hard, and root could have judged it
trivially were it not for the conflict of interest.)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: PNP

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2009-04-30 at 11:27 -0600, Roger Hicks wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 11:22, comex  wrote:
> > I hereby explicitly, willfully refuse to become party to the PerlNomic
> > Partnership agreement until such time as I may activate myself in
> > PerlNomic or perform another action clearly intended to make me a
> > party.
> 
> I have the same problem. Once your New Player proposal has been
> rejected there is no further way to attempt to re-join.

You can try again with a different nick. Or ask an existing player to
write a proposal to add you manually. (I will, if you request; PerlNomic
contains a different set of mostly-active players, now, so it might have
a different result to last time.)

-- 
ais523
Perlnomicite

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [CotC] CFJ 2458 remanded to Taral

[Ed Murphy]

Taral wrote:

> The appeals court has remanded this case to me without significant
> comment for, I assume, a clarification of my reasoning behind my
> judgement.

Upon further review, I think the appellants (me included) were
confused, pointing out CFJ 2459 which hinged on a technicality
that does not apply to CFJ 2458.  (2459 claimed a violation of
Rule 2202, which merely says "report X contains information Y";
the requirement to publish comes from Rule 2143.  2458 claimed
a violation of Rule 1789, which directly states "the Registrar
shall include X in eir reports".)

Panelist Tiger questions how often the Registrar shall include
this information in eir report, to which you've reasonably
inferred "each time".

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Geoffrey Spear]

On Fri, May 1, 2009 at 10:39 AM, Roger Hicks  wrote:
> Or better yet, let potential judges select the cases they wish to
> judge through some suitable system and eliminate most all recusals. I
> proposed this at one point but it was shot down.

It seems to me that the best judicial system is one where the judges
have no interest in the case itself or its outcome, but rather in
cases in general being decided correctly.  I don't mind judges
recusing themselves from cases that are too difficult (although I'd
love to see them increase the II of the cases when doing so) or in
which there's an obvious conflict of interest, but I'll continue to
oppose a system where judges only judge cases they're interested in
personally as this seems to be against the interests of the game.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: May I please have another?

[Roger Hicks]

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 19:36, comex  wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 8:53 PM, Ed Murphy  wrote:
>> Proposal:  May I please have another?
>> (AI = 1.5, please)
>>
>> Amend Rule 1871 (The Standing Court) by appending this text:
>>
>>      A player who recuses emself without cause CAN flip eir posture
>>      to standing by announcement in the same message, unless e has
>>      already done so within the past week.
>
> Self-recusals are already annoying and a waste of the judicial
> system's time; I'd prefer if the reasons people recuse themselves
> could be eliminated.  Proto: add new postures for players who want
> some cases but not many.  Perhaps you can flip your posture to get one
> case and then automatically lie down; perhaps you can get a case every
> other rotation; etc.  Of course, judicial rank already partially
> addresses this-- or it would, if people actually used it.
>
Or better yet, let potential judges select the cases they wish to
judge through some suitable system and eliminate most all recusals. I
proposed this at one point but it was shot down.

BobTHJ