Re: DIS: Proto: Players' Guide
On 8/6/13 14:14 , Charles Walker wrote: I'd really appreciate some feedback on the following, in particular whether the ###-delimited section should be removed or not, but also generally. --- A PLAYERS' GUIDE TO THE GAME OF AGORA --- [snip] Just about everything you can do in the game is done by announcement or by publishing something. You do both of these things by sending a message to a public forum (all of the mailing lists are public apart from agora-discussion, which is for discussion only), usually agora-business. To do something by announcement, you simply send a message stating that you do that thing, e.g. you register by sending a message saying I register. You should mention that we are not picky about the form of the announcement. Ideally, we'd get across enough so new players know they can guess the wording and it'll probably be okay; and aren't confused to learn that a synonym like I CFJ on: X satisfies initiat[ing] an inquiry case by announcement, specifying a block of text. [snip] IV. Registering Now you're on the mailing lists, messages should start coming in. Most of them won't make any sense to you, which is fine. You can either register straight away by sending a message to agora-business saying I register, or watch the game for a while and try to get the hang of things before you join. It's up to you. You can even ask to be listed on the Registrar's report as a Watcher, either by sending a message to the lists or by contacting the Registrar directly. Once you've sent that message - I register - you're a player. It's as simple as that really. New players have no particular obligation to do anything, but this guide will tell you about some of the things you can take part in: proposals, voting, CFJs, offices and the economy. See Rule 869 (How to Join and Leave Agora) for more information on registering. V. The Rules But first, a brief interlude about the rules. Newly registered players should recieve copies of the rules from the Rulekeepor. receive. Point to the current web location for the rules (presently https://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/~charles/agora/current_flr.txt)? [snip] The proposal uses three magic words enact, amend and repeal. These refer to creating, changing and deleting a rule, respectively. When you refer to rules, use the ID number as well as the title to make it easy for everyone to refer to the rules you are talking about and know what your proposal does. You should point out that the formatting and phrasing of the proposal is a convention not a requirement. [So players don't need to worry that their proposal won't work because it says Create instead of Enact or Change instead of Amend, etc.] [snip] If you want to start judging cases yourself, send a message saying I sit. Soon enough a message will start come through assigning a case to you. Once assigned, you have a week to make your judgement. See Rule 1871 (The Standing Court) for more information on becoming a judge. Did you forgot about Initial Posture? You should point out that you can undo this for free with I become supine. You should point out that you can recuse yourself from any case for free. [snip] Most officers have a weekly or monthly report which they publish to and/or? agora-official so that everyone knows what is going on in their part of the gamestate. [snip] If the holder of an office becomes inactive or deregisters, anyone can assume the office and start performing its duties. Suggest citing Rule 2276 here. [snip] - woggle
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Possibly Registrar] Census
On 7 Aug 2013, at 01:26, Alex Smith ais...@bham.ac.uk wrote: On Tue, 2013-08-06 at 20:24 -0400, Max Schutz wrote: wait we have to re-register again Probably not. Wooble thinks we do, but I'm not sure if anyone else agrees with em. One common problem with nomic is that people disagree as to what the state of things is. Problem?
DIS: Re: BUS: Judgement: CFJ 3383
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 3:26 AM, James Beirne james.m.bei...@gmail.com wrote: CFJ: Fool violated Rule 101 by failing to treat Agora right good forever, by purporting to deregister all other players and subsequently lock them out of the game. Judgement: GUILTY/EXILE I assign the maximum remaining sentence of TIME OUT/21 DAYS. -scshunt
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Judgement: CFJ 3383
On 7 August 2013 10:20, Sean Hunt scsh...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca wrote: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 3:26 AM, James Beirne james.m.bei...@gmail.com wrote: CFJ: Fool violated Rule 101 by failing to treat Agora right good forever, by purporting to deregister all other players and subsequently lock them out of the game. Judgement: GUILTY/EXILE I assign the maximum remaining sentence of TIME OUT/21 DAYS. I suggest the judge file a motion to reconsider (Rule 2318) and assign the correct judgement, as any ambiguity here is not a good idea.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Judgement: CFJ 3383
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest the judge file a motion to reconsider (Rule 2318) and assign the correct judgement, as any ambiguity here is not a good idea. I think two mutually-contradictory actions should be enough to consider it simply ambiguous in the first place. -scshunt
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Judgement: CFJ 3383
On 7 August 2013 11:15, Sean Hunt scsh...@csclub.uwaterloo.ca wrote: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest the judge file a motion to reconsider (Rule 2318) and assign the correct judgement, as any ambiguity here is not a good idea. I think two mutually-contradictory actions should be enough to consider it simply ambiguous in the first place. Yeah. In that case could the judge make eir judgement ttPF?
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Judgement: CFJ 3383
On Wed, 2013-08-07 at 06:15 -0400, Sean Hunt wrote: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 6:14 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I suggest the judge file a motion to reconsider (Rule 2318) and assign the correct judgement, as any ambiguity here is not a good idea. I think two mutually-contradictory actions should be enough to consider it simply ambiguous in the first place. I'd assume it clear that only the first one worked. (Also, I second the motions to just reconsider and rejudge it.) -- ais523
DIS: A Players' Guide to the Game of Agora, version 2
Here's the second draft, with everyone's corrections and suggestions included. ais523 mentioned in irc that e got a degree for an FAQ-like document. Is this up to standard? --- A PLAYERS' GUIDE TO THE GAME OF AGORA --- Table of Contents - I.What is nomic? II. What is Agora? III. The Fora IV. Registering V.The Rules VI. Proposals VII. Power and Precedence VIII. CFJs IX. Offices X.The Economy XI. Conclusion XII. See also I. What is nomic? If law-making is a game, then it is a game in which changing the rules is a move. Law-making is more than changing the rules of law-making, of course, and more than a game. But a real game may model the self-amending character of the legal system and leave the rest out. While self-amendment appears to be an esoteric feature of law, capturing it in a game creates a remarkably complete microcosm of a functional legal system. -- Peter Suber, The Paradox of Self-Amendment. (Peter Lang Publishing, 1990, but now out of print.) A nomic is a system of rules that provides means for itself to be amended arbitrarily. Nomics can be games, micronations, simulations, and/or sovereign states. -- Rule 2368 (Nomic Definitions). II. What is Agora? Agora is a nomic, but not just any nomic. Agora is the wisest, noblest, eldest, and most interesting of all active email nomics, according to Rule 1727, and I heartily concur. This guide will focus on the specifics of how to play Agora, but if you want to learn a little more about Agora and its history, a visit to http://agoranomic.org/ is a good place to start. In fact, if you haven't already, I'd advise you read it now, then come back to this guide. To be a bit more specific, Agora, like most other nomics, has a ruleset, which tells you what you can and can't do; a bunch of players, who participate in the game; proposals to change the rules, which players vote on; and a judicial system to resolve matters of controversy. These are the core elements of the game. III. The Fora Agora is played over five mailing lists, so the first thing you'll need to do is subscribe to them. Wait, FIVE MAILING LISTS!? I know, it seems intimidating, but it's not as bad as it sounds. Two of the lists are backups in case the first three go down and one is the list for officers' reports. Normally you will only use agora-business, for playing the game, and agora-discussion, for talking about the game. To subscribe to the mailing lists, go to http://agoranomic.org/ which has links to all five lists. Just about everything you can do in the game is done by announcement or by publishing something. You do both of these things by sending a message to a public forum (all of the mailing lists are public apart from agora-discussion, which is for discussion only), usually agora-business. To do something by announcement, you simply send a message stating that you do that thing, e.g. you register by sending a message saying I register, or something with the same meaning (as long as it's unambiguous what you mean, announcements can be phrased however you like). The lists tend to be high volume, so most players either redirect Agoran messages from their inbox into a separate folder or use a different address for playing Agora. I myself use three Gmail labels: Agora for messages to all the forums other than agora-official, Agora Judicial for messages to agora-official with [CotC] in the subject line and Agora Official for all other messages to agora-official. I imagine each player has their own preference. While you decide on yours, it's probably best to send all of the messages into one label/folder. If you use Gmail, there's a handy way to set up filters: click the arrow in the top right-hand corner of a message from the list and select Filter messages like this. There should be something like 'list:agora-discussion.agoranomic.org' in the Includes the words box. Then click Create filter with this search and select the options for skipping the inbox and applying a label. Finally, there is the official Agoran irc channel ##nomic on irc.freenode.net. You don't have to be in this channel to play the game, but it's nice there, so you should definitely give it a try. There is a web access link on the Agoran homepage if you don't have an irc client. See Rule 478 (Fora) for more information on fora and messages. IV. Registering Now you're on the mailing lists, messages should start coming in. Most of them won't make any sense to you, which is fine. By the time you've finished reading this guide, a lot more of it will make sense to you. You can either register straight away by sending a message to agora-business saying I register, or watch the game for a while and try to get the hang of things before you join. It's up to you. You can even ask to be listed on the Registrar's report as a Watcher, either by sending a message to the lists or by contacting the
DIS: Re: OFF: Judgement, CFJ 3381
::applause:: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 4:36 AM, Alex Smith ais...@bham.ac.uk wrote: - Teucer's counterscam failed to allow em to repeal rules (no opinion on whether it's a paradox) I note that, while you profess no opinion, you pointed out the way in which it very probably fails to create a paradox - I stepped into the same timing bug you mention Fool falling victim to. Ah, well. - teucer
DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Corrected Distribution of Proposals 7548-7586
On 7 August 2013 14:21, Benjamin Schultz ben.dov.schu...@gmail.com wrote: On Props. 7548-7586, I vote ENDORSE Murphy. It seems unlikely that Murphy will vote.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Corrected Distribution of Proposals 7548-7586
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.comwrote: On 7 August 2013 14:21, Benjamin Schultz ben.dov.schu...@gmail.com wrote: On Props. 7548-7586, I vote ENDORSE Murphy. It seems unlikely that Murphy will vote. Did e go inactive or AFK? Would you like to convince me to endorse someone else? -- OscarMeyr
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Corrected Distribution of Proposals 7548-7586
On 7 August 2013 15:13, Benjamin Schultz ben.dov.schu...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 August 2013 14:21, Benjamin Schultz ben.dov.schu...@gmail.com wrote: On Props. 7548-7586, I vote ENDORSE Murphy. It seems unlikely that Murphy will vote. Did e go inactive or AFK? Would you like to convince me to endorse someone else? E's not Rules-inactive, but e hasn't played much recently, and I don't think e's been voting. Your votes will evaluate to PRESENT if Murphy doesn't vote so it doesn't matter quorum-wise. As for someone else, well, the player I appear to agree with the most on the current distribution is me :)
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Corrected Distribution of Proposals 7548-7586
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 10:28 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.comwrote: On 7 August 2013 15:13, Benjamin Schultz ben.dov.schu...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 9:27 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: On 7 August 2013 14:21, Benjamin Schultz ben.dov.schu...@gmail.com wrote: On Props. 7548-7586, I vote ENDORSE Murphy. It seems unlikely that Murphy will vote. Did e go inactive or AFK? Would you like to convince me to endorse someone else? E's not Rules-inactive, but e hasn't played much recently, and I don't think e's been voting. Your votes will evaluate to PRESENT if Murphy doesn't vote so it doesn't matter quorum-wise. As for someone else, well, the player I appear to agree with the most on the current distribution is me :) Feel free to convince me to change my vote, then. :) -- OscarMeyr
DIS: Re: OFF: [IADoP] Government Waste and Herald elections
On Aug 7, 2013 9:29 AM, Charles Walker charles.w.wal...@gmail.com wrote: I hereby resolve the election for the office of Government Waste. The votes were as follows: woggle - Machiavelli, woggle, Walker, G. ais523 - ais523, Roujo ehird - ehird Ienpw III - Ienpw III woggle is the option selected by Agora; e is hereby installed into office with a salary of 37. I hereby resolve the election for the office of Herald. There were no candidates; the office remains vacant. CoE: I voted. -scshunt
DIS: Re: OFF: Judgement, CFJ 3381
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 4:36 AM, Alex Smith ais...@bham.ac.uk wrote: (The recent TIME OUT scam, which made players inactive, likewise doesn't actually work on vote resolution, for this reason; however, it would have worked on proposal /distribution/, back before the loophole was patched.) The recent TIME OUT scam was for a General Election, where the definition of eligible voter is different. [...with notice...] it's possible for Fool to destroy the part 1 promise even if its author destruction condition is true *false? There's clearly something wrong with the kind of logical argument that lets you conclude that one of a set of actions is possible, but without any knowledge as to which. I disagree with this line of reasoning: *if* we assume that this type of statement allows one to assert arbitrary statements or mechanisms, and is thus generally equivalent to an arbitrary rule, it stands to reason that a pathological or inevaluable statement could be introduced just as easily as in a rule, so I don't think this possibility discredits the interpretation. (Agora always has had a custom that shorthand that would expand to an infinite statement is not allowed.) I wouldn't call this shorthand. Shorthand is where the Rules require that some information be specified - directly, if they are to be interpreted literally, but they are interpreted as implicitly allowing indirect specification via arbitrary statements as long as those statements are simple, easy to evaluate, determinate, etc. In this case, an arbitrary (and arbitrarily complex) statement is being explicitly evaluated, and precedent is to allow even statements like this statement is false which more unambiguously expand into infinitely long logical expressions. - Rule 2337 permits X when sentence A is true (and thus not undecidable) This is not an unreasonable interpretation, but it does conflict with repeatedly established custom that a paradoxical statement makes the possibility of X undecidable, e.g. in my previous win by paradox due to the same clause of Rule 2337; the introduction of Determinacy (and previously Messy Statements) into the rules support this interpretation, and the conflict is not inherent to a mechanical interpretation of the rules. Of course the issue here is that there is more than one form of paraconsistent logic. I would call for reconsideration if this affected the outcome of the CFJ, but since it does not, I'll kick the can...
DIS: Re: BUS: (corrected) Judgement: CFJ 3383
Oh, and further arguments: I think that the please treat Agora right good forever clause is vague enough that it should not be punishable in cases of negligence, but only in cases of actual malice. —Machiavelli
DIS: Re: OFF: Judgement, CFJ 3381
On 2013-08-07, Alex Smith wrote: I judge CFJ 3381 TRUE. The rest of this message, below this paragraph, is a thesis. I submit it with intent to qualify for a degree. It is /also/ my judge's arguments and evidence. [snip] This is an excellent Judgement and an excellent Thesis. Thanks for taking the time to write this up carefully. -- Michael Slone
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Flair
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Elliott Hird penguinoftheg...@googlemail.com wrote: On 7 August 2013 22:57, omd c.ome...@gmail.com wrote: (The precise definition of text is generally left to the Registrar's discretion, but should be conservative; no emoji.) Please just allow Unicode strings -- or better, stay silent on the matter. Defining text is a fool's errand, and explicitly excluding emoji is both insufficient and pointless. The quoted paragraph is intended to be explicitly mostly silent on the matter, only using emoji as an example. Em⭕️ji is annoying, but so is z̸̨̜͈̦̹̜͕̥͈̱̟̙̰͍͈̻̠̩̝͈͝a̵̱̳̣̗̳̣͍̭̣̝̲̠͚̤̞͢͠ͅl̨̨̢̙̫̣̖̭̖͍̦̞̠̹͞g̢̛̻͇̜̙̟̗̲͇̬̫͘̕o͔͇̺͎͍̞̦͖̥͔̝̕͢͟ͅ, ｆｕｌｌｗｉｄｔｈ, ├box drawing┤, p⚕ct⚽︎graphs, rtl marks, etc. But 日本語 or a ≤ b are reasonable.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Flair
On 8 August 2013 00:29, comex com...@gmail.com wrote: The quoted paragraph is intended to be explicitly mostly silent on the matter, only using emoji as an example. Em⭕️ji is annoying, but so is z̸̨̜͈̦̹̜͕̥͈̱̟̙̰͍͈̻̠̩̝͈͝a̵̱̳̣̗̳̣͍̭̣̝̲̠͚̤̞͢͠ͅl̨̨̢̙̫̣̖̭̖͍̦̞̠̹͞g̢̛̻͇̜̙̟̗̲͇̬̫͘̕o͔͇̺͎͍̞̦͖̥͔̝̕͢͟ͅ, ｆｕｌｌｗｉｄｔｈ, ├box drawing┤, p⚕ct⚽︎graphs, rtl marks, etc. But 日本語 or a ≤ b are reasonable. I don't see why we should care about this in flair but nowhere else. It seems completely irrelevant to me.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Proposal: Flair
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 8:11 PM, Elliott Hird penguinoftheg...@googlemail.com wrote: I don't see why we should care about this in flair but nowhere else. It seems completely irrelevant to me. Well... we have CFJs and proposals, which naturally go out of circulation after a limited amount of time, and names, which aren't actually regulated and may be rejected if messy. I guess it's not that important, and if you find it objectionable I'll remove it, but it's also only two lines and prevents people from CFJing about whether such-and-such is a textual glyph. *shrug*
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (corrected) Judgement: CFJ 3383
On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Tanner Swett swe...@mail.gvsu.edu wrote: Oh, and further arguments: I think that the please treat Agora right good forever clause is vague enough that it should not be punishable in cases of negligence, but only in cases of actual malice. —Machiavelli I opine that a small amount of actual malice seems like a reasonable interpretation of Fool's actions. However, I do think 21 days is a bit much.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: (corrected) Judgement: CFJ 3383
Yeah, I struggled a lot with this. I decided 21 in the end after comparing other sentences of TIME OUT. 7-14 days seems typical for repeated neglect of duties and this seemed a bit more extreme to me. On 2013-08-07 9:57 PM, Craig Daniel teu...@pobox.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 7, 2013 at 4:06 PM, Tanner Swett swe...@mail.gvsu.edu wrote: Oh, and further arguments: I think that the please treat Agora right good forever clause is vague enough that it should not be punishable in cases of negligence, but only in cases of actual malice. —Machiavelli I opine that a small amount of actual malice seems like a reasonable interpretation of Fool's actions. However, I do think 21 days is a bit much.
