DIS: Re: BUS: Re: [Reportor] Holiday Arts Supplement (cont.)
Oh I LIKE how this is flowing together rather than just being a simple list. On 2017-12-28 08:00, Kerim Aydin wrote: On the third day of Nomic, the Forum sent to me Three votes FOR two proposal changes to a ruleset of perfect clarity. On Tue, 26 Dec 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote: On the second day of Nomic, the Forum sent to me Two proposal changes to a ruleset of perfect clarity. On Mon, 25 Dec 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote: On the first day of Nomic, the Forum gave to me - A ruleset of perfect clarity. (To be continued)
Re: DIS: [Idea] Agora is a Player
If this makes the game more elegant, I think this would be a great
improvement. I just don't know if it would do that or not. It sounds
tedious, but if the gain is worth it, then I suggest a full piece-by-piece
analysis of the ruleset of how Agora, if made to be a player, would work. I
think it would really sell the idea and people would appreciate it (could
double as a great thesis too, yo).
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 10:47 PM, Alexis Hunt wrote:
> We had the President, which was a sort of singleton semi-autonomous player.
>
> The idea of using Agora in place of an arbitrary singleton entity is
> relatively new, and not one that I really like to be honest.
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2017 at 16:00 Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > I have a vague feeling that we did something like that before, but can't
> > place the context - anyone else remember?
> >
> > Alternative: invert the assumption, in the switches rule, define player
> > switches
> > to include Agora unless Agora is explicitly excepted?
> >
> >
> > On Wed, 27 Dec 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > > It might have a lot of unintended consequences, because "player" and
> > > "Agora" weren't thought to supposed to work together. But with ample
> > > revisions, I'm sure it would work.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Aris Merchant <
> > > thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Rule X ("Zombies") states that "Master is a secured player switch
> with
> > > > possible values of any player, and Agora". This type of boilerplate
> > > > pops up all over the place throughout the ruleset. What if we instead
> > > > said that Agora was always a player, but only took actions if the
> > > > ruleset said that e did (think of it as a kind of default process,
> > > > like init in unix or the community account on stack exchange)? Later
> > > > we might add other mechanisms, such as without objection.
> > > >
> > > > -Aris
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
Re: DIS: [Idea] Agora is a Player
We had the President, which was a sort of singleton semi-autonomous player.
The idea of using Agora in place of an arbitrary singleton entity is
relatively new, and not one that I really like to be honest.
On Wed, 27 Dec 2017 at 16:00 Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
>
> I have a vague feeling that we did something like that before, but can't
> place the context - anyone else remember?
>
> Alternative: invert the assumption, in the switches rule, define player
> switches
> to include Agora unless Agora is explicitly excepted?
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > It might have a lot of unintended consequences, because "player" and
> > "Agora" weren't thought to supposed to work together. But with ample
> > revisions, I'm sure it would work.
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Aris Merchant <
> > thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Rule X ("Zombies") states that "Master is a secured player switch with
> > > possible values of any player, and Agora". This type of boilerplate
> > > pops up all over the place throughout the ruleset. What if we instead
> > > said that Agora was always a player, but only took actions if the
> > > ruleset said that e did (think of it as a kind of default process,
> > > like init in unix or the community account on stack exchange)? Later
> > > we might add other mechanisms, such as without objection.
> > >
> > > -Aris
> > >
> >
>
>
Re: DIS: [Idea] Agora is a Player
Part of the advantage is that Agora is ill-defined. For instance, Agora can
own assets, but what type of entity owns the asset? It's a singleton, not
really an object a coherent class. This would still allow Agora to be a
special case (it has to be), but at least it would provide a framework for
handling actions that Agora takes. I'd also like to see what breaks when we
defy the assumption that players are person-like.
-Aris
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 1:00 PM Kerim Aydin wrote:
>
>
> I have a vague feeling that we did something like that before, but can't
> place the context - anyone else remember?
>
> Alternative: invert the assumption, in the switches rule, define player
> switches
> to include Agora unless Agora is explicitly excepted?
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Dec 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> > It might have a lot of unintended consequences, because "player" and
> > "Agora" weren't thought to supposed to work together. But with ample
> > revisions, I'm sure it would work.
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Aris Merchant <
> > thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Rule X ("Zombies") states that "Master is a secured player switch with
> > > possible values of any player, and Agora". This type of boilerplate
> > > pops up all over the place throughout the ruleset. What if we instead
> > > said that Agora was always a player, but only took actions if the
> > > ruleset said that e did (think of it as a kind of default process,
> > > like init in unix or the community account on stack exchange)? Later
> > > we might add other mechanisms, such as without objection.
> > >
> > > -Aris
> > >
> >
>
>
Re: DIS: [Idea] Agora is a Player
I have a vague feeling that we did something like that before, but can't
place the context - anyone else remember?
Alternative: invert the assumption, in the switches rule, define player
switches
to include Agora unless Agora is explicitly excepted?
On Wed, 27 Dec 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> It might have a lot of unintended consequences, because "player" and
> "Agora" weren't thought to supposed to work together. But with ample
> revisions, I'm sure it would work.
>
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Aris Merchant <
> thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Rule X ("Zombies") states that "Master is a secured player switch with
> > possible values of any player, and Agora". This type of boilerplate
> > pops up all over the place throughout the ruleset. What if we instead
> > said that Agora was always a player, but only took actions if the
> > ruleset said that e did (think of it as a kind of default process,
> > like init in unix or the community account on stack exchange)? Later
> > we might add other mechanisms, such as without objection.
> >
> > -Aris
> >
>
DIS: [Draft] Promotor report
My draft report follows. -Aris --- I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the quorum is 7.0, the voting method is AI-majority and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is also a valid vote, as are conditional votes). ID Author(s)AI TitlePender Pend fee --- 7996* Murphy 3.0 Hopefully routine fixes Murphy 1 AP 7997* Murphy, [1] 2.0 Politician Fixes v1.1Murphy 1 AP The proposal pool is currently empty. Legend: * : Proposal is pending. [1] Alexis A proposal may be pended for 1 AP, or for 1/20th the Floating Value in shines (see the Treasuror's report). The full text of the aforementioned proposals is included below. // ID: 7996 Title: Hopefully routine fixes Adoption index: 3.0 Author: Murphy Co-authors: Amend Rule 991 (Calls for Judgement) by replacing "the Arbitor CAN assign any player" with "the Arbitor CAN assign any eligible player". Amend Rule 2529 (Medals of Honour) by replacing this text: In the first 7 days of an Agoran month after the first 7 days, if there are any players who are eligible for a Medal of Honour, with this text: In the first 7 days of an Agoran month after the first 7 days, if there are any players who correctly announced their eligibility that month as specified above, Amend Rule 2160 (Deputisation) by replacing this text: When a player deputises via normal deputisation for an elected office, e becomes the holder of that office. with this text: When a player deputises via normal deputisation for an elected office, e becomes the holder of that office, unless the action being performed would already install someone into that office. // ID: 7997 Title: Politician Fixes v1.1 Adoption index: 2.0 Author: Murphy Co-authors: Alexis Amend Rule 2536 (Taken Under Advisement) by replacing this text: A player CAN, by announcement, spend Favours in a Party to gain Influence over that Politican, depending on the Politician's Echelon: with this text: A player CAN, by announcement, spend Favours in a Politician's Party to gain Influence over that Politician, depending on the Politician's Echelon: [same party only, also spelling fix] Amend Rule 2542 (Favour Awards) by replacing this text: - For each voter who has not voted on an Agoran decision resolved earlier in the same Agoran week, e SHALL award that player 2 Favours in the Party holding Participaiton. with this text: - For each voter who voted on that Agoran decision and did not already receive this type of award earlier in the same Agoran week, e SHALL award that player 2 Favours in the Party holding Participation. [same intent but easier to understand, also spelling fix] and by replacing this text: As part of eir weekly duties, the Clork SHALL award, to the Advisor of a Politician holding one of the below offices, 3 Favours in the corresponding Party: with this text: As part of eir weekly duties, the Clork SHALL award, to the Advisor of a Politician holding one of the below Posts, 3 Favours in the corresponding Party: [Politicians hold Posts, not offices] //
Re: DIS: [Idea] Agora is a Player
It might have a lot of unintended consequences, because "player" and
"Agora" weren't thought to supposed to work together. But with ample
revisions, I'm sure it would work.
On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:40 PM, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rule X ("Zombies") states that "Master is a secured player switch with
> possible values of any player, and Agora". This type of boilerplate
> pops up all over the place throughout the ruleset. What if we instead
> said that Agora was always a player, but only took actions if the
> ruleset said that e did (think of it as a kind of default process,
> like init in unix or the community account on stack exchange)? Later
> we might add other mechanisms, such as without objection.
>
> -Aris
>
DIS: [Idea] Agora is a Player
Rule X ("Zombies") states that "Master is a secured player switch with
possible values of any player, and Agora". This type of boilerplate
pops up all over the place throughout the ruleset. What if we instead
said that Agora was always a player, but only took actions if the
ruleset said that e did (think of it as a kind of default process,
like init in unix or the community account on stack exchange)? Later
we might add other mechanisms, such as without objection.
-Aris
Re: DIS: Transitioning Agora off a Mailing List?
We have https://agoranomic.org/ if that's what you're talking about. -Aris On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 9:37 AM David Nicol wrote: > it sounds like it would make sense to augment the mailing list with > some kind of non-email virtual artifact, dynamic or static. Web pages > work very will for such purposes, FRC got its from sites.google.com > and it is at https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/ ... > i'd like to offer some kind of engineering services but my track > record on delivering on such promises for the last 25 years of such > offers has been really, really poor. > > On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Kerim Aydin > wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sat, 23 Dec 2017, David Nicol wrote: > >> Initially, (1994?) Nomic World was a MUD, before MUDs started getting > >> called MOOs. Synchronous communication was difficult with players from > lots > >> of different time zones, and voting was done with some persistent game > >> objects. A lot of serious discussion actually happened by e-mail because > >> otherwise it was difficult to keep track of it. > > > > IIRC, one of the "game objects" was a message board system, if you were > > in a room with a message board you could enter "message board" mode > > and it acted like a newsgroup (remembering which messages you had read, > > etc.). There were separate boards for proposals, CFJs, discussions, etc. > > Since others could see you and chat while you were reading/writing, it > > was basically as if you were playing agora, but logging into email also > > logged you into IRC. (Don't remember using actual email to play but sure > > some people did). > > > > One of the big issues (relevant now) was that we treated the "game > > state" as a platonic thing from the beginning, and the state of the game > > objects frequently didn't match the platonic state (eg as decided by > CJFs), > > which caused particular difficulties with the moderators. So after it > > moved to Agora (email only, with gamestate reflected in after-the-fact > > records), there was considerable resistance to going back to being > > restricted by programming-driven "reality". > > > > Nomic World ran ~Aug 1992 to Jun 1993. > > > > > >> The transition to Agora Nomic, mailing list based, was relatively > painless. > >> > >> it certainly makes sense to augment with other technologies, but > "archaic" > >> is in no way a meaningful criticism, and is false. You know what would > be > >> archaic? Paper mail, that's what. Oh no, that would be positively > modern. > >> You know what would be archaic? in-person conventions. The players must > all > >> physically convene at Agora Island every five years to agree on the > rules > >> until the next convention... > >> > >> On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, VJ Rada wrote: > >> > >> > personally i dislike the mailing list but it's not that hard to log on > >> > to gmail compared to a forum, it doesn't really bother me at all. > >> > > >> > On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 5:27 AM, Reuben Staley < > reuben.sta...@gmail.com> > >> > wrote: > >> > > Using a mailing list over a forum is the same type of argument add > using > >> > > IRC instead of a chatroom. Yes, it's an archaic form of > communication. > >> > > Yes, other software might have more features. But the thing is > that you > >> > > get to choose what client you want to use. You have far more choice > with > >> > a > >> > > mailing list and less with a forum. The issue is, are those changes > >> > going > >> > > to be worth it? > >> > > > >> > > On Dec 23, 2017 07:16, "Cuddle Beam" wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Seeing how activity and Office-holders are waning, I'd like to > know how > >> > >> people would feel about transitioning Agora off a Mailing List and > onto > >> > a > >> > >> different kind of substrate. > >> > >> > >> > >> I personally find our mailing list-only system to be archaic and > makes > >> > >> Agora's human cost to be even "playable" quite high, versus having > a > >> > GNDT > >> > >> or something to handle tracking gamestate. > >> > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > From V.J. Rada > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> “no man should be compelled to do what the laws do not require; nor to > >> refrain from acts which the laws permit.” Calder v. Bull (U.S. 1798) > >> > > > > -- > “no man should be compelled to do what the laws do not require; nor to > refrain from acts which the laws permit.” Calder v. Bull (U.S. 1798) >
Re: DIS: Transitioning Agora off a Mailing List?
it sounds like it would make sense to augment the mailing list with some kind of non-email virtual artifact, dynamic or static. Web pages work very will for such purposes, FRC got its from sites.google.com and it is at https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/ ... i'd like to offer some kind of engineering services but my track record on delivering on such promises for the last 25 years of such offers has been really, really poor. On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 8:57 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > On Sat, 23 Dec 2017, David Nicol wrote: >> Initially, (1994?) Nomic World was a MUD, before MUDs started getting >> called MOOs. Synchronous communication was difficult with players from lots >> of different time zones, and voting was done with some persistent game >> objects. A lot of serious discussion actually happened by e-mail because >> otherwise it was difficult to keep track of it. > > IIRC, one of the "game objects" was a message board system, if you were > in a room with a message board you could enter "message board" mode > and it acted like a newsgroup (remembering which messages you had read, > etc.). There were separate boards for proposals, CFJs, discussions, etc. > Since others could see you and chat while you were reading/writing, it > was basically as if you were playing agora, but logging into email also > logged you into IRC. (Don't remember using actual email to play but sure > some people did). > > One of the big issues (relevant now) was that we treated the "game > state" as a platonic thing from the beginning, and the state of the game > objects frequently didn't match the platonic state (eg as decided by CJFs), > which caused particular difficulties with the moderators. So after it > moved to Agora (email only, with gamestate reflected in after-the-fact > records), there was considerable resistance to going back to being > restricted by programming-driven "reality". > > Nomic World ran ~Aug 1992 to Jun 1993. > > >> The transition to Agora Nomic, mailing list based, was relatively painless. >> >> it certainly makes sense to augment with other technologies, but "archaic" >> is in no way a meaningful criticism, and is false. You know what would be >> archaic? Paper mail, that's what. Oh no, that would be positively modern. >> You know what would be archaic? in-person conventions. The players must all >> physically convene at Agora Island every five years to agree on the rules >> until the next convention... >> >> On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 4:31 PM, VJ Rada wrote: >> >> > personally i dislike the mailing list but it's not that hard to log on >> > to gmail compared to a forum, it doesn't really bother me at all. >> > >> > On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 5:27 AM, Reuben Staley >> > wrote: >> > > Using a mailing list over a forum is the same type of argument add using >> > > IRC instead of a chatroom. Yes, it's an archaic form of communication. >> > > Yes, other software might have more features. But the thing is that you >> > > get to choose what client you want to use. You have far more choice with >> > a >> > > mailing list and less with a forum. The issue is, are those changes >> > going >> > > to be worth it? >> > > >> > > On Dec 23, 2017 07:16, "Cuddle Beam" wrote: >> > > >> > >> Seeing how activity and Office-holders are waning, I'd like to know how >> > >> people would feel about transitioning Agora off a Mailing List and onto >> > a >> > >> different kind of substrate. >> > >> >> > >> I personally find our mailing list-only system to be archaic and makes >> > >> Agora's human cost to be even "playable" quite high, versus having a >> > GNDT >> > >> or something to handle tracking gamestate. >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > From V.J. Rada >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> “no man should be compelled to do what the laws do not require; nor to >> refrain from acts which the laws permit.” Calder v. Bull (U.S. 1798) >> -- “no man should be compelled to do what the laws do not require; nor to refrain from acts which the laws permit.” Calder v. Bull (U.S. 1798)
Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report
Yes, but no one has flipped his master switch. Publius Scribonius Scholasticus p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com > On Dec 26, 2017, at 9:48 PM, VJ Rada wrote: > > shouldn't quazie be a zombie? > > On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 12:02 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > wrote: >> >> Registrar's Weekly Report >> >> >> (all times UTC) >> >> Date of last report: 17 Dec 2017 >> Date of this report: 24 Dec 2017 >> >> Recent events: >> >> >> Players (16) (Rule 869, self-ratifying) >> >>Player Contact Registered >>-- --- -- >>omd comexk at gmail.com [4] 03 Feb 11 >>oowen at grimoire.ca 12 Jul 16 >>Aris thoughtsoflifeandlight17 at gmail.com 13 Sep 16 >>天火狐draconicdarkness at gmail.com 06 Nov 16 >>Quazie quazienomic at gmail.com15 Apr 17 >>P. Scholasticus [2] pscriboniusscholasticus at gmail.com[3] 16 Apr 17 >>Gaelan gbs at canishe.com 15 May 17 >>nichdel nichdel at gmail.com29 Jun 17 >>G. kerim at u.washington.edu 25 Aug 17 >>Cuddle Beam cuddlebeam at gmail.com 25 Aug 17 >>ATMunn iamingodsarmy at gmail.com 21 Sep 17 >>Trigon reuben.staley at gmail.com 24 Sep 17 >>Alexis alercah at gmail.com27 Sep 17 >>Telnaior jdga at iinet.net.au20 Oct 17 >>Corona liliumalbum.agora at gmail.com 17 Nov 17 >>pokespokes at botnoise.org 11 Dec 17 >>Murphy emurphy42 at zoho.com 17 Dec 17 >> >> >> [1] also ais523 at alumni.bham.ac.uk >> [2] In full, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus >> [3] officially, but technically equivalent p.scribonius.scholasticus at >> googlemail.com >> [4] officially, but technically equivalent c.ome.xk at gmail.com >> >> Fora (Rule 478, self-ratifying) >> >>Type Location Typical use >> --- >>Public agora-official at agoranomic.org official reports >>Public agora-business at agoranomic.org other business >>Discussion agora-discussion at agoranomic.orgdiscussion >>Discussion irc://irc.freenode.net:6667/##nomic discussion >>Public agora at listserver.tue.nlbackup >> >> Writs of FAGE (Rule 1789) >>PlayerDate >>-- >>Kelly 17 Sep 95 >>Andre 13 Feb 99 >>BobTHJ16 Jan 08 >>P1 5 Nov 08 >>P2 5 Nov 08 >>P3 6 Nov 08 >>G.29 Jun 17 >> >>Subscribe or unsubscribe from main lists: >> http://www.agoranomic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo >> >>Subscribe or unsubscribe from tue.nl backup list: >> http://listserver.tue.nl/mailman/listinfo/agora >> >>The IRC channel does not require subscription; set your IRC client to >>server irc.freenode.net, port 6667, channel ##nomic, and whatever >>nickname you like. >> >> Other rules pertaining to this office >> - >> Rule 2139 (The Registrar) >> Rule 1789 (Cantus Cygneus) >> >> Watchers (4) >> >>The list of Watchers is not governed by the rules, but is >>traditionally maintained in the Registrar's Report. If you'd like to >>be listed as a Watcher or removed from the list, feel free to email >>the fora or the Registrar directly. >> >>Watchers confirmed as of May 2017: >> >>Nickname Contact >> --- >>Ørjan oerjan at nvg.ntnu.no >> >>Watchers confirmed as of May 2013: >> >>Nickname Contact >> --- >>Dave davidnicol at gmail.com >>Phlogistique noe.rubinstein at gmail.com >>Steve zardoz37 at gmail.com >> >> Registrar's Weekly Addenda on Switches and Emotions >> >> >> >> Emotions: >> >> nichdel - Joyous >> Alexis - Melancholy >> ATMunn - Joyous (November 14, 2017) >> PSS - Melancholy >> G. - Melancholy (November 17, 2017) >> Trigon - Melancholy >> VJ Rada - Melancholy (November 17, 2017) >> >> -- >> >> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus >> > > > > -- > From V.J
