Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Rebecca
The difference though is that only a Herald CAN publish a Herald's report and SHALL do so. When "vacant" is the Herald (and I admit that "vacant" is the Herald and is liable, but this is because the Officeholder switch specifically allows vacant as an officeholder), no provision of the rules

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
Well, e probably succeeded in solving the past power problem. E doesn’t seem to have succeeded with preventing retroaction though. -Aris On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 10:50 PM omd wrote: > On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 7:57 PM James Cook wrote: > > > R1551 reads as if it is trying to avoid amending the

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread omd
On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 7:57 PM James Cook wrote: > > R1551 reads as if it is trying to avoid amending the past, by amending > > the present gamestate with reference to a hypothetical past. I have > > tried to think of a couple of reasons, but neither feels particularly > > compelling in the face

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Rebecca
This is an interesting case. Although I believe that the best reading of the rule holds all players liable, I call for judgement on the following question, barring Aris {If no player activates Rule 2596 'The Ritual' in a certain week, all players playing the game that week have violated the rule,

DIS: Re: OFF: deputy-[HERALD] Weekly Report

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
The person who had that idea is me. I’m not interested in holding Herald though; if I did it, it be as your deputy. As the Herald, it’s your prerogative to control the Birthday Tournament if you wish to, as the fair reward for the work you’ll be doing. -Aris On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:49 PM Rance

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
This would be true if failing to perform The Ritual was itself harmful (malum in se). However, it is wrong only because the rules say so (malum prohibitum), and I see no reason why we should extent their prohibition farther than they explicitly do so. It is also a principle of American criminal

DIS: This is a test. Please ignore

2019-06-03 Thread Rance Bedwell
Please disregard!  I am trying to verify that the alignment problems with this report are fixed.  Mailman wasn't able to read the newline characters when I sent it before but it looks fine when sent to my email. I deputize to publish the Herald's weekly report below. [I think someone had

Fwd: Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Jason Cobb
Gah, sorry D. Margaux. Forwarded Message Subject:Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2019 00:30:06 -0400 From: Jason Cobb To: D. Margaux I'll point out that in that example, both parties were each committing an

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread D. Margaux
> On Jun 3, 2019, at 11:47 PM, Aris Merchant > wrote: > > Under the present conditions, > however, each player can quite reasonably claim that someone else should > have performed The Ritual, and that it wasn’t *their* fault that it wasn’t > performed. Unless the rule explicitly states that

Re: DIS: Fake Zombies

2019-06-03 Thread Jason Cobb
Rule 869 ("How to Join and Leave Agora"): > Citizenship is a person switch with values Unregistered (default) > and Registered, tracked by the Registrar. Changes to citizenship > are secured. A registered person is a Player. To "register" > someone is to flip that person's Citizenship switch

DIS: Fake Zombies

2019-06-03 Thread Bernie Brackett
Is there any rules against creating a bunch of extra emails, registering them to Agora, and then not doing anything until they become a zombie and claiming them?

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
Alright. I dispute your conclusions in these two paragraphs: “Under Rule 2596 (the Ritual), “[a]ny player CAN perform the Ritual by paying a fee of 7 coins,” and “[t]he Ritual MUST be performed at least once in every Agoran week.” Under Rule 2152 (Mother, May I?), “MUST” means that “[f]ailing to

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Rance Bedwell
The officeholder switch for the office of Herald has been set to vacant for approximately 5 weeks.  By rule 2143 (Official Reports and Duties) and 2510 (Such is Karma), vacant SHALL publish the Herald's weekly report each week.  This has not happened for the past 5 weeks.  At the same time

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Rebecca
We do interestingly have a clause that says "The Rules SHALL NOT be interpreted so as to proscribe unregulated actions.". I suppose under my interpretation, anyone who so interprets the rules in any circumstance will be criminally liable, whereas under the contrasting interpretation, only the

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Rebecca
The Ritual, however, isn't one! On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:36 PM ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk < ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 2019-06-04 at 12:16 +1000, Rebecca wrote: > > I think if there was a provision that said "the ADoP CAN publish an > Officer > > report. An Officer report SHALL be

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk
On Tue, 2019-06-04 at 12:16 +1000, Rebecca wrote: > I think if there was a provision that said "the ADoP CAN publish an Officer > report. An Officer report SHALL be published weekly", a robot may interpret > such a provision as imposing criminal liability on the report itself, but > any

Re: DIS: Plot twist: new proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread James Cook
Also, I wrote some text arguing that D. Margaux is correct about the document self-ratifying itself into being legal. It didn't end up being relevant to my judgement, but I've already written it, so I might as well publish it. (It's similar to the first draft of this section, but I added two

DIS: Plot twist: new proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread James Cook
Based on the recent discussion, here are my revised judgements. This are due fairly soon; I'll probably publish it tomorrow morning in the UTC-4 time zone (so, maybe around 13:00-ish) even though that feels a bit rushed. In case it's not clear, I'm pretty sure D. Margaux has 0 blots now, and

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Rebecca
I think if there was a provision that said "the ADoP CAN publish an Officer report. An Officer report SHALL be published weekly", a robot may interpret such a provision as imposing criminal liability on the report itself, but any English-speaking person would realise that the ADoP is liable for

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread D. Margaux
That may make some intuitive sense, but I’m not sure which provision(s) of the rules you think I’ve either overlooked or misinterpreted, and what your interpretation of those provisions is. I think if we ground the analysis in the text of the Rules then there will be more clarity about why we

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
The fact that any player CAN perform The Ritual and the fact that someone SHALL do so do not logically or by common sense entail the fact that the responsibility to do so falls on any player. Until we know exactly who SHALL do so, punishing anyone is premature. Even assuming that the action isn’t

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Prime Minister] there's no confidence in the economy, so...

2019-06-03 Thread Rebecca
twg is 100% correct on this, i have a very clear memory of this being the law based on a prime minister election i resolved as ADoP. HOWEVER, this CFJ regards the ability of Corona to be installed as Prime Minister, not to be a candidate in the election, by the plain text of the actual CFJ, and

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Rebecca
I think that this decision is corrrect as a matter of text. The rules should be amended to give one player the responsibility, and each player the ability for the ritual. But as the rules stand, "failing to perform [the ritual] violates" the rules and "any player CAN perform the ritual". I think

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread James Cook
Hm, maybe in the hypothetical timeline the act of publishing can be thought of as performative, so it's by definition correct. At least, that's how I think of messages that successfully cause actions to be performed. Still thinking about CFJ retroactivity though. On Mon., Jun. 3, 2019, 20:36

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread James Cook
In the new timeline, it was accurate from the time it was published, but inaccurate until the time it was published. R2143 says you shall not publish inaccurate information in an official report, but doesn't comment on exactly when it should not be inaccurate. If it means at the exact instant if

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
Ahh, yes, that is embarrassing. The accuracy of the report is rather the entire point of the case. I got so caught up in the question of how the retroactivity worked out that I forgot the actual object of the case. My apologies. -Aris On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 5:22 PM James Cook wrote: > Wasn't

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread D. Margaux
I think the self ratification makes it retroactively accurate though... On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:22 PM James Cook wrote: > Wasn't omd's finger-pointing about publishing inaccurate information in the > reports? > > On Mon., Jun. 3, 2019, 20:18 Aris Merchant, < >

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread James Cook
Wasn't omd's finger-pointing about publishing inaccurate information in the reports? On Mon., Jun. 3, 2019, 20:18 Aris Merchant, < thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Why would the legality of publishing the report matter? > > -Aris > > On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 5:16 PM James Cook wrote:

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
Why would the legality of publishing the report matter? -Aris On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 5:16 PM James Cook wrote: > In R1551's hypothetical timeline the gamete was minimally modified when the > report was published... it seems tricky to determine whether it was false > at that exact time. > >

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread James Cook
In R1551's hypothetical timeline the gamete was minimally modified when the report was published... it seems tricky to determine whether it was false at that exact time. Even if we assume the self-ratification made it retroactively legal to publish, I'm not sure CFJ 3726 is about the revised

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread D. Margaux
Hmm. If the intent didn’t work, the report self-ratification did. So I think we are in the same place anyway. On Mon, Jun 3, 2019 at 8:03 PM James Cook wrote: > I think I might have found a problem with my proto-judgements: D. > Margaux may not have properly announced intent to ratify eir

Re: DIS: Proto-judgements of CFJs 3726 and 3727

2019-06-03 Thread James Cook
I think I might have found a problem with my proto-judgements: D. Margaux may not have properly announced intent to ratify eir document. E said: > I intend without objection to ratify the following document as true at the > time 00:00 GMT on 20 May 2019: But there is no mechanism for em to do

Re: DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
I object. The rule says that The Ritual SHALL be performed; it doesn't specify who shall do the performing. In the absence of such a specification, holding any individual player responsible is clearly unreasonable, since their individual responsibility to perform The Ritual was never explicitly

DIS: [Referee] Ritual Finger Pointing Proto-Decision

2019-06-03 Thread D Margaux
Below is a proto-decision on the fingers pointed by Falsifian regarding the Ritual; comments welcome. * * * The key question seems to be whether a fine for failure to perform the Ritual CAN be imposed on players consistently with Rule 2531. Under Rule 2531, among other things, a fine is

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Temporary Deputy-ADoP] Initiation of Election for Prime Minister

2019-06-03 Thread Jason Cobb
Ah, sorry, I just checked, and I registered 90 minutes too late to vote in this election. Probably for the best anyway as I still don't really know who people are. Jason Cobb On 6/3/19 2:10 AM, Aris Merchant wrote: I'm happy to! My platform was that I was working to resolve the inactivity

DIS: Re: BUS: Whoops

2019-06-03 Thread ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk
On Mon, 2019-06-03 at 02:38 +, James Cook wrote: > I Point my Finger at every player, in the following order: > > omd, Aris, Gaelan, G., Cuddle Beam, Trigon, Murphy, ATMunn, twg, > D. Margaux, Jacob Arduino, Falsifian, Bernie, Rance, o, Jason Cobb, > Walker, PSS, Corona, V.J. Rada, L,

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Temporary Deputy-ADoP] Initiation of Election for Prime Minister

2019-06-03 Thread Aris Merchant
I'm happy to! My platform was that I was working to resolve the inactivity crisis of the time [1]. It's less of a crisis now (though more offices than usual are still empty), partially because of my work. I sent the message I linked, and I've also taken on the duties of the Arbitor as I said I