Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
On Tue, 30 Jun 2020 at 21:17, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > aww man, I was going to try to bury an apathy intent R2595 requires the intent to have been published "conspicously" and "without obfuscation". My understanding is that comes from a period of time when people were sticking hidden things in messages and it got annoying looking for them. - Falsifian
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
On 7/1/2020 11:51 AM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:59 AM omd wrote: >> I haven’t looked at the wording in detail yet, but “by notice” is >> confusingly similar to “with notice” (i.e. dependent actions). >> > Other suggestions? It doesn't seem confusing to me, but if someone can come > up with something that makes sense to me I'll do that instead. > > -Aris datapoint: when reading the draft I also thought it would be very confusing. I think changing the current "with notice" to "with warning" would be better than changing "Notice of " to something else - Notices of are less used now but have a longer history. People who have joined since With Notice was a thing may think differently (and the price is probably mistakes in intent messages for a while). -G.
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 12:59 AM omd via agora-discussion < agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > On Jun 30, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion < > agora-discussion@agoranomic.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion > > wrote: > >> > >> I'm working on a proposal to deal with hidden actions (such a G.'s > burried > >> vote). It'll also handle cases where the identity of the player sending > a > >> message is unclear. I'm done drafting the core, but I need to handle > some > >> technical and confirming amendments; I should have a proto out in the > next > >> day or two. Just letting everyone know so we avoid duplication of > effort. > > > > > > A proto follows. Comments are, as always, welcome. > > I haven’t looked at the wording in detail yet, but “by notice” is > confusingly similar to “with notice” (i.e. dependent actions). > Other suggestions? It doesn't seem confusing to me, but if someone can come up with something that makes sense to me I'll do that instead. -Aris
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
On 7/1/2020 9:17 AM, Alex Smith via agora-discussion wrote: > > they've been comprehensively fixed by now. The Agoran equivalent of "what could possibly go wrong"
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
On Tuesday, 30 June 2020, 22:16:48 GMT+1, ATMunn via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/30/2020 5:09 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > > I'm working on a proposal to deal with hidden actions (such a G.'s burried > > vote). It'll also handle cases where the identity of the player sending a > > message is unclear. I'm done drafting the core, but I need to handle some > > technical and confirming amendments; I should have a proto out in the next > > day or two. Just letting everyone know so we avoid duplication of effort. > > aww man, I was going to try to bury an apathy intent We fixed that ages ago. A strong part of the motivation for the Win by Apathy rule was to help us ensure that we'd end up fixing any dependent action scams that might potentially end up doing more damage. For what it's worth, several years ago, I buried an intent in the (very long, under the customs of the time) Registrar's Report, but Apathy didn't exist at the time, so I used the buried intent to make an IRC channel into a public forum (which is at least relevant to the Registrar's Report). So buried-intent scams go back a long way, and it's not surprising they've been comprehensively fixed by now. (Of course, part of the nature of Agora is that even well-established fixes tend to get randomly broken from time to time.) -- ais523
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
On 6/30/20 8:45 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion > wrote: >> >> I'm working on a proposal to deal with hidden actions (such a G.'s burried >> vote). It'll also handle cases where the identity of the player sending a >> message is unclear. I'm done drafting the core, but I need to handle some >> technical and confirming amendments; I should have a proto out in the next >> day or two. Just letting everyone know so we avoid duplication of effort. > > > A proto follows. Comments are, as always, welcome. > > -Aris > --- > Title: Sunlight is the Best Disinfectant > Adoption index: 3.0 > Author: Aris > Co-authors: nch, G., Jason > > > Amend Rule 2202, "Ratification Without Objection", by deleting: > > A public document is part (possibly all) of a public message. > > Amend Rule 478, "Fora", by changing the portion of the Rule from > "A public message is a message" to the end to read as follows: > > A public message is a message sent via a public forum, or sent to > all players and containing a clear designation of intent to be > public. A document is part (possibly all) of a message. To "publish" or > "announce" something is to send a public message whose body contains that > thing. To do something "publicly" is to do that thing within a public > message. > > Where the rules define an action that a person CAN perform "by > announcement", that person performs that action by specifying the > action and announcing that e performs it, all unambiguously, clearly, > and without concealment. > > A notice is a document specifying conspicuously and without obfuscation > all information which the rules require that type of notice to contain > to be valid. A notice must be public, unless otherwise specified by the > enabling rule. If someone accomplishes an action by sending > a notice, e accomplishes that action "by notice". I think "by notice" may be too close to "with notice". > > Any action performed by sending a message is performed at the time > date-stamped on that message. Actions in messages (including their contained > documents) are performed in the order they appear in the message, unless > otherwise specified. If an action in a message is being taken by someone > who has been a player within the last month, it must be clear, either > from the message itself or from context, which person is performing the > action; if it is not, the action is canceled. This sees a bit problematic. For any new arbitrary person, we don't certainly know that they weren't previously a person, so this creates some uneeded ambiguity. > > > Retitle Rule 2518 from "Determinacy" to "Safeguards". > > Amend Rule 2518, "Safeguards", by changing it to read in full: > > 1. If something can be understood with reasonable effort, it is clear, > otherwise it is unclear. > 2. If something has multiple reasonable interpretations, it is ambiguous, > otherwise it is unambiguous. I think this may be too broad because sometimes there are multiple reasonable interpretation which may all agree or there may be clear reasons to select one among the rest. > 3. If something has been hidden in such a way that a reasonable player > would have difficultly locating it, it is concealed, otherwise it is > unconcealed. > 4. If something stands out so as to be visible with little effort, it is > conspicuous, otherwise it is inconspicuous. > 5. If something has been rendered hard to understand at a glance, > it is obfuscated, otherwise it is unobfuscated. > 6. If a value CANNOT be reasonably determined (without circularity or > paradox) from information reasonably available, or if it > alternates indefinitely between values, then the value is > considered to be indeterminate, otherwise it is determinate. > > > Amend Rule 208, "Resolving Agoran Decisions", by replacing: > > The vote collector for an unresolved Agoran decision CAN resolve > it by announcement, indicating the outcome. If it was required to > be initiated, then e SHALL resolve it in a timely fashion after > the end of the voting period. To be valid, this announcement must > satisfy the following conditions: > > 1. It is published after the voting period has ended. > > 2. It clearly identifies the matter to be resolved. > > 3. It specifies the number of voters (or a list of the voters). > For these purposes and for determining quorum, a "voter" is > someone who submitted a ballot on the decision that was valid > when it was submitted and also valid (i.e. not withdrawn or > otherwise invalidated) at the end of the voting period. > > 4. It specifies the outcome, as described elsewhere, and, if there > was more than one valid option, provides a tally of the voters' > valid ballots. > > > with: > > The vote collector for an
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
> On Jun 30, 2020, at 5:45 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion > wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion > wrote: >> >> I'm working on a proposal to deal with hidden actions (such a G.'s burried >> vote). It'll also handle cases where the identity of the player sending a >> message is unclear. I'm done drafting the core, but I need to handle some >> technical and confirming amendments; I should have a proto out in the next >> day or two. Just letting everyone know so we avoid duplication of effort. > > > A proto follows. Comments are, as always, welcome. I haven’t looked at the wording in detail yet, but “by notice” is confusingly similar to “with notice” (i.e. dependent actions).
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
On Tue, Jun 30, 2020 at 2:09 PM Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: > > I'm working on a proposal to deal with hidden actions (such a G.'s burried > vote). It'll also handle cases where the identity of the player sending a > message is unclear. I'm done drafting the core, but I need to handle some > technical and confirming amendments; I should have a proto out in the next > day or two. Just letting everyone know so we avoid duplication of effort. A proto follows. Comments are, as always, welcome. -Aris --- Title: Sunlight is the Best Disinfectant Adoption index: 3.0 Author: Aris Co-authors: nch, G., Jason Amend Rule 2202, "Ratification Without Objection", by deleting: A public document is part (possibly all) of a public message. Amend Rule 478, "Fora", by changing the portion of the Rule from "A public message is a message" to the end to read as follows: A public message is a message sent via a public forum, or sent to all players and containing a clear designation of intent to be public. A document is part (possibly all) of a message. To "publish" or "announce" something is to send a public message whose body contains that thing. To do something "publicly" is to do that thing within a public message. Where the rules define an action that a person CAN perform "by announcement", that person performs that action by specifying the action and announcing that e performs it, all unambiguously, clearly, and without concealment. A notice is a document specifying conspicuously and without obfuscation all information which the rules require that type of notice to contain to be valid. A notice must be public, unless otherwise specified by the enabling rule. If someone accomplishes an action by sending a notice, e accomplishes that action "by notice". Any action performed by sending a message is performed at the time date-stamped on that message. Actions in messages (including their contained documents) are performed in the order they appear in the message, unless otherwise specified. If an action in a message is being taken by someone who has been a player within the last month, it must be clear, either from the message itself or from context, which person is performing the action; if it is not, the action is canceled. Retitle Rule 2518 from "Determinacy" to "Safeguards". Amend Rule 2518, "Safeguards", by changing it to read in full: 1. If something can be understood with reasonable effort, it is clear, otherwise it is unclear. 2. If something has multiple reasonable interpretations, it is ambiguous, otherwise it is unambiguous. 3. If something has been hidden in such a way that a reasonable player would have difficultly locating it, it is concealed, otherwise it is unconcealed. 4. If something stands out so as to be visible with little effort, it is conspicuous, otherwise it is inconspicuous. 5. If something has been rendered hard to understand at a glance, it is obfuscated, otherwise it is unobfuscated. 6. If a value CANNOT be reasonably determined (without circularity or paradox) from information reasonably available, or if it alternates indefinitely between values, then the value is considered to be indeterminate, otherwise it is determinate. Amend Rule 208, "Resolving Agoran Decisions", by replacing: The vote collector for an unresolved Agoran decision CAN resolve it by announcement, indicating the outcome. If it was required to be initiated, then e SHALL resolve it in a timely fashion after the end of the voting period. To be valid, this announcement must satisfy the following conditions: 1. It is published after the voting period has ended. 2. It clearly identifies the matter to be resolved. 3. It specifies the number of voters (or a list of the voters). For these purposes and for determining quorum, a "voter" is someone who submitted a ballot on the decision that was valid when it was submitted and also valid (i.e. not withdrawn or otherwise invalidated) at the end of the voting period. 4. It specifies the outcome, as described elsewhere, and, if there was more than one valid option, provides a tally of the voters' valid ballots. with: The vote collector for an unresolved Agoran decision CAN resolve it by notice. If it was required to be initiated, then e SHALL resolve it in a timely fashion after the end of the voting period. To be valid, this notice must satisfy the following conditions: 1. It is published after the voting period has ended. 2. It clearly identifies the matter to be resolved. 3. It specifies the number of voters (or a list of the voters). For these purposes and for determining quorum, a "voter" is someone who submitted a ballot on the decision that was valid when it was submitted and also valid (i.e. not withdrawn or otherwise invalidated) at
Re: DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
aww man, I was going to try to bury an apathy intent On 6/30/2020 5:09 PM, Aris Merchant via agora-discussion wrote: I'm working on a proposal to deal with hidden actions (such a G.'s burried vote). It'll also handle cases where the identity of the player sending a message is unclear. I'm done drafting the core, but I need to handle some technical and confirming amendments; I should have a proto out in the next day or two. Just letting everyone know so we avoid duplication of effort. -Aris -- ATMunn friendly neighborhood notary here :)
DIS: Hidden Action Fixes
I'm working on a proposal to deal with hidden actions (such a G.'s burried vote). It'll also handle cases where the identity of the player sending a message is unclear. I'm done drafting the core, but I need to handle some technical and confirming amendments; I should have a proto out in the next day or two. Just letting everyone know so we avoid duplication of effort. -Aris
