Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 6/25/20 11:39 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: > For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt > regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations? I think so. I don't see any reason a Regulation couldn't simply say "Auctions are run as defined in the Regulations defined by the Treasuror" or whatever text is needed to make it clear what you're referring to. -- nch Prime Minister, Webmastor, NAX Exchange Manager
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 6/25/2020 11:16 AM, Reuben Staley via agora-discussion wrote: > On 2020-06-25 10:41, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: >> On 6/25/20 12:39 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via >> agora-discussion wrote: >>> On 6/25/20 12:37 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: This also means the Registrar rather than the Treasuror is in charge of figuring out how zombie auctions work, which I'm happy with given the Treasuror is defining a good default for when I'm feeling lazy. - Falsifian >>> For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt >>> regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations? >>> >> >> The Registrar wouldn't need to write any regulations, e would just need >> to pick a method that the Treasuror has defined in the auction regulations. > > For the record, I've been interpreting the auctions rule as saying > something like "If the rules say you can run an auction, you can do so > by any method (even one you specify on the spot) if it's identifiable as > an auction. But also the Treasuror can make regulations that help > players set up auctions." > > If this is not how this rule is to be interpreted, please correct me. > That's how I intended it when I wrote it, anyway. I saw the Treasusor's role as maintaining a document with a method or methods that were handy and would save effort (and over time, be debugged) so as to "aid trade and commerce" without mandating it. Making it a regulation ensures the document has version control, and that some public review has to go into changing it, but I wasn't meaning it to crowd out other methods that the auctioneer might prefer. -G.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 2020-06-25 10:41, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: On 6/25/20 12:39 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion wrote: On 6/25/20 12:37 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote: This also means the Registrar rather than the Treasuror is in charge of figuring out how zombie auctions work, which I'm happy with given the Treasuror is defining a good default for when I'm feeling lazy. - Falsifian For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations? The Registrar wouldn't need to write any regulations, e would just need to pick a method that the Treasuror has defined in the auction regulations. For the record, I've been interpreting the auctions rule as saying something like "If the rules say you can run an auction, you can do so by any method (even one you specify on the spot) if it's identifiable as an auction. But also the Treasuror can make regulations that help players set up auctions." If this is not how this rule is to be interpreted, please correct me. -- Trigon I LOVE SPAGHETTI transfer Jason one coin nch was here I hereby don't... trust... the dragon... don't... trust... the dragon... Do not Construe Jason's message with subject TRIGON as extending this
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 6/25/20 12:47 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 16:39, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
> agora-discussion wrote:
>> On 6/25/20 12:37 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote:
>>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 14:05, Jason Cobb via agora-business
>>> wrote:
I submit the following proposal:
Title: Talismans auction patch
Author: Jason
Coauthors: Trigon
Adoption index: 2.0
{
Amend Rule 1885 by deleting the sentence beginning "The method to be
used for this auction".
[This fixes a specification bug in the talismans proposal, since
auctions are now supposed to have their method determined by the
auctioneer, rather than a rule. If talismans has not been adopted, then
this will have no effect.]
}
--
Jason Cobb
>>>
>>> This also means the Registrar rather than the Treasuror is in charge
>>> of figuring out how zombie auctions work, which I'm happy with given
>>> the Treasuror is defining a good default for when I'm feeling lazy.
>>>
>>> - Falsifian
>>>
>>
>> For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt
>> regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations?
>
> I'm not sure where Registrar regulations come into the picture... are
> you requesting that I run zombie auctions according to one of the
> methods defined in the Treasuror's regulations?
It's not a request; I just think that running auctions isn't the core
purpose of the Registrar, so e shouldn't be expected to write eir own
regulations if e doesn't want to.
>
> I think that's a good idea for the first zombie auction, since we
> should test those regulations.
>
> For later ones, I'm not sure. I'll almost certainly circulate a draft
> before trying anything fancy.
>
> - Falsifian
>
--
Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 6/25/2020 9:41 AM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > The Registrar wouldn't need to write any regulations, e would just need > to pick a method that the Treasuror has defined in the auction regulations. > I think the auctioneer is free to point to any method that follows the guidelines of the second paragraph of R2545. Methods whose definitions are legally locked by Agora (via official regulations or whatever) would probably withstand more criticism but it could be a contract or anything really. -G.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 16:39, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/25/20 12:37 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote:
> > On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 14:05, Jason Cobb via agora-business
> > wrote:
> >> I submit the following proposal:
> >>
> >> Title: Talismans auction patch
> >>
> >> Author: Jason
> >>
> >> Coauthors: Trigon
> >>
> >> Adoption index: 2.0
> >>
> >> {
> >>
> >> Amend Rule 1885 by deleting the sentence beginning "The method to be
> >> used for this auction".
> >>
> >> [This fixes a specification bug in the talismans proposal, since
> >> auctions are now supposed to have their method determined by the
> >> auctioneer, rather than a rule. If talismans has not been adopted, then
> >> this will have no effect.]
> >>
> >> }
> >>
> >> --
> >> Jason Cobb
> >
> > This also means the Registrar rather than the Treasuror is in charge
> > of figuring out how zombie auctions work, which I'm happy with given
> > the Treasuror is defining a good default for when I'm feeling lazy.
> >
> > - Falsifian
> >
>
> For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt
> regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations?
I'm not sure where Registrar regulations come into the picture... are
you requesting that I run zombie auctions according to one of the
methods defined in the Treasuror's regulations?
I think that's a good idea for the first zombie auction, since we
should test those regulations.
For later ones, I'm not sure. I'll almost certainly circulate a draft
before trying anything fancy.
- Falsifian
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 6/25/20 12:39 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via
agora-discussion wrote:
> On 6/25/20 12:37 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote:
>> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 14:05, Jason Cobb via agora-business
>> wrote:
>>> I submit the following proposal:
>>>
>>> Title: Talismans auction patch
>>>
>>> Author: Jason
>>>
>>> Coauthors: Trigon
>>>
>>> Adoption index: 2.0
>>>
>>> {
>>>
>>> Amend Rule 1885 by deleting the sentence beginning "The method to be
>>> used for this auction".
>>>
>>> [This fixes a specification bug in the talismans proposal, since
>>> auctions are now supposed to have their method determined by the
>>> auctioneer, rather than a rule. If talismans has not been adopted, then
>>> this will have no effect.]
>>>
>>> }
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jason Cobb
>> This also means the Registrar rather than the Treasuror is in charge
>> of figuring out how zombie auctions work, which I'm happy with given
>> the Treasuror is defining a good default for when I'm feeling lazy.
>>
>> - Falsifian
>>
> For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt
> regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations?
>
The Registrar wouldn't need to write any regulations, e would just need
to pick a method that the Treasuror has defined in the auction regulations.
--
Jason Cobb
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On 6/25/20 12:37 PM, James Cook via agora-discussion wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 14:05, Jason Cobb via agora-business
> wrote:
>> I submit the following proposal:
>>
>> Title: Talismans auction patch
>>
>> Author: Jason
>>
>> Coauthors: Trigon
>>
>> Adoption index: 2.0
>>
>> {
>>
>> Amend Rule 1885 by deleting the sentence beginning "The method to be
>> used for this auction".
>>
>> [This fixes a specification bug in the talismans proposal, since
>> auctions are now supposed to have their method determined by the
>> auctioneer, rather than a rule. If talismans has not been adopted, then
>> this will have no effect.]
>>
>> }
>>
>> --
>> Jason Cobb
>
> This also means the Registrar rather than the Treasuror is in charge
> of figuring out how zombie auctions work, which I'm happy with given
> the Treasuror is defining a good default for when I'm feeling lazy.
>
> - Falsifian
>
For simplicity, would it be possible for the Registrar to adopt
regulations defering to the Treasuror's regulations?
--
Publius Scribonius Scholasticus, Herald, Referee, Tailor, Pirate
Champion, Badge of the Great Agoran Revival, Badge of the Salted Earth
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans Auction Patch
On Thu, 25 Jun 2020 at 14:05, Jason Cobb via agora-business
wrote:
> I submit the following proposal:
>
> Title: Talismans auction patch
>
> Author: Jason
>
> Coauthors: Trigon
>
> Adoption index: 2.0
>
> {
>
> Amend Rule 1885 by deleting the sentence beginning "The method to be
> used for this auction".
>
> [This fixes a specification bug in the talismans proposal, since
> auctions are now supposed to have their method determined by the
> auctioneer, rather than a rule. If talismans has not been adopted, then
> this will have no effect.]
>
> }
>
> --
> Jason Cobb
This also means the Registrar rather than the Treasuror is in charge
of figuring out how zombie auctions work, which I'm happy with given
the Treasuror is defining a good default for when I'm feeling lazy.
- Falsifian
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans
On 6/16/2020 4:11 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-discussion wrote: > On 6/16/20 6:59 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: >>> Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, a player CAN, by announcement, >>> transfer the talisman for em to emself. >> Could we make this "acting as emself"? Without that, people could >> transfer eir zombies back to themselves in order to reset resale value. > > > There's a goal here (as requested by G.) not to make any changes that > impact gameplay. I don't want to re-litigate anything about zombies. > You've found something interesting, but I won't fix it here. This trick was used at least once (in 2018 sometime) and I thought about using it once or twice since then, but sorta privately decided it was unethical. No real bias on if this is bug/feature (other than my request to pull out functional changes for separate voting). >> Could we let zombies be transferred from person to person? > > Theoretically, yes. Again, however, I'm trying not to make any semantic > changes to zombies. This has been discussed before, and I might end up > writing a proposal for it, but it won't be done here. Last time this was seriously discussed (again ~2018 I think) it was controversial. Can't remember if it was voted down or never proposed. Not sure my own opinion this time but again deserves discussion on its own. -G.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans
On 6/16/20 6:59 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus via agora-discussion
wrote:
> On 6/16/20 6:45 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
>> Alright, final chance for comments. I plan to pend this in about a day.
>>
>> I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal:
>>
>> Title: Talismans
>> Adoption index: 3.0
>> Coauthors: nch, Falsifian, G.
>>
>> {
>>
>> For the purposes of this proposal, a player's prior master is eir master
>> before this proposal applies any effects.
>>
>> Amend Rule 2532 to read, in whole:
>> {
>>
>> A talisman is an indestructible asset, tracked by the Registrar, and
>> with ownership wholly restricted to players and Agora. There exists
>> exactly one talisman for each player, and no other talismans; if one
>> does not exist for a certain player, it is created in eir posession.
>> Talismans CAN only be transferred as explicitly specified by the rules.
>> The creation, destruction, and transfer of talismans is secured.
> Secured at what power?
Rule 1688: the power of the rule itself.
>> Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, a player CAN, by announcement,
>> transfer the talisman for em to emself.
> Could we make this "acting as emself"? Without that, people could
> transfer eir zombies back to themselves in order to reset resale value.
There's a goal here (as requested by G.) not to make any changes that
impact gameplay. I don't want to re-litigate anything about zombies.
You've found something interesting, but I won't fix it here.
>
>> The master of a player is the
>> entity that possesses the talisman for em. A player who is eir own
>> master is active; any other player is a zombie (syn. inactive).
>>
>> The master of a zombie CAN act on behalf of em, except a master CANNOT
>> act on behalf of a zombie to:
>> - initiate, support, object to, or perform a dependent action;
>> - act on behalf of that zombie's zombies;
>> - bid in a zombie auction;
>> - enter a contract, pledge, or other type of agreement;
>> - initiate a Call for Judgement;
>> - create blots;
>> - deregister.
>>
>> If a master causes a zombie to perform an ILLEGAL action, the master
>> commits the Class 4+N Crime of Masterminding (where N is the class of
>> the illegal action).
> Let's add N=2 when the class isn't specified, just to be extra safe.
This is consistent with the existing wording, and I'm inclined not to
change it, seeing as it very probably works.
>
>> If an active player who was a zombie has not received a Welcome Package
>> since e most recently ceased being a zombie, and if eir resale value was
>> less than 2 at any point during eir most recent time as a zombie, then
>> any player CAN cause em to receive a Welcome Package by announcement.
>>
>> }
>>
>> Amend Rule 2574 to read, in whole:
>> {
>>
>> Any player CAN, with notice, transfer the talisman for an active player
>> who has not made a public announcement in the past 60 days to Agora.
>>
>> Resale value is a secured natural switch for zombies, tracked by the
>> Registrar, with a default value of 2. Whenever the talisman for a zombie
>> is transferred to a player, that zombie's resale value is decreased by
> Should we specify "a player other than emself"?
Once it's transferred to emself, e ceases to be a zombie and thus has
loses eir resale value switch, so it's pointless to specify.
>> Amend Rule 2575 by replacing the final sentence with
>> "Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the talisman for the Distributor
>> is possessed by emself (and is transferred to em if it ever is not), and
>> e CANNOT deregister or be deregistered."
>>
>> For each player who is not eir own prior master, transfer the talisman
>> for em to eir prior master.
> This should probably specify "master prior to this proposal".
"Prior master" is defined at the top of the proposal.
>> }
>>
> Could we let zombies be transferred from person to person?
Theoretically, yes. Again, however, I'm trying not to make any semantic
changes to zombies. This has been discussed before, and I might end up
writing a proposal for it, but it won't be done here.
--
Jason Cobb
DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Talismans
On 6/16/20 6:45 PM, Jason Cobb via agora-business wrote:
> Alright, final chance for comments. I plan to pend this in about a day.
>
> I submit (but do not pend) the following proposal:
>
> Title: Talismans
> Adoption index: 3.0
> Coauthors: nch, Falsifian, G.
>
> {
>
> For the purposes of this proposal, a player's prior master is eir master
> before this proposal applies any effects.
>
> Amend Rule 2532 to read, in whole:
> {
>
> A talisman is an indestructible asset, tracked by the Registrar, and
> with ownership wholly restricted to players and Agora. There exists
> exactly one talisman for each player, and no other talismans; if one
> does not exist for a certain player, it is created in eir posession.
> Talismans CAN only be transferred as explicitly specified by the rules.
> The creation, destruction, and transfer of talismans is secured.
Secured at what power?
>
> Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, a player CAN, by announcement,
> transfer the talisman for em to emself.
Could we make this "acting as emself"? Without that, people could
transfer eir zombies back to themselves in order to reset resale value.
> The master of a player is the
> entity that possesses the talisman for em. A player who is eir own
> master is active; any other player is a zombie (syn. inactive).
>
> The master of a zombie CAN act on behalf of em, except a master CANNOT
> act on behalf of a zombie to:
> - initiate, support, object to, or perform a dependent action;
> - act on behalf of that zombie's zombies;
> - bid in a zombie auction;
> - enter a contract, pledge, or other type of agreement;
> - initiate a Call for Judgement;
> - create blots;
> - deregister.
>
> If a master causes a zombie to perform an ILLEGAL action, the master
> commits the Class 4+N Crime of Masterminding (where N is the class of
> the illegal action).
Let's add N=2 when the class isn't specified, just to be extra safe.
>
> If an active player who was a zombie has not received a Welcome Package
> since e most recently ceased being a zombie, and if eir resale value was
> less than 2 at any point during eir most recent time as a zombie, then
> any player CAN cause em to receive a Welcome Package by announcement.
>
> }
>
> Amend Rule 2574 to read, in whole:
> {
>
> Any player CAN, with notice, transfer the talisman for an active player
> who has not made a public announcement in the past 60 days to Agora.
>
> Resale value is a secured natural switch for zombies, tracked by the
> Registrar, with a default value of 2. Whenever the talisman for a zombie
> is transferred to a player, that zombie's resale value is decreased by
Should we specify "a player other than emself"?
> 1. At the end of a zombie auction, the resale value of every zombie that
> is an excess lot in that auction decreases by 1.
>
> The talisman for a zombie with zero resale value CANNOT be transferred
> to any player other than that zombie.
>
> Any player CAN, with notice:
> - If a zombie has been a zombie for the past 90 days and not had
> Agora for a master during any of that time, transfer the talisman for em
> to Agora;
> - If a player possesses more than one talisman, specify and transfer
> one of those talismans to Agora;
> - Deregister a zombie whose resale value is zero and whose master is
> Agora.
>
> The Registrar SHALL track the date for each zombie on which Agora was
> most recently eir master. The Registrar SHALL perform all POSSIBLE
> actions in the preceding paragraph in a timely fashion after first
> reporting their possibility via the facts in eir weekly report.
>
> }
>
>
> Amend Rule 1885 to read, in whole:
> {
>
> Whenever a zombie has Agora for a master and has a resale value greater
> than 0, and when eir talisman is not currently a lot in an auction and
> has not been won as an auction lot in the past 14 days, then the
> Registrar CAN put that zombie's talisman (along with any other talismans
> that fulfill the same conditions) up for auction.
>
> In a timely fashion after the beginning of each month, the Registrar
> SHALL either initiate such an auction or, if no talismans meeting these
> conditions existed at the beginning of the month, announce that no such
> auction is necessary.
>
> For such an auction, each lot consists of the talisman for one zombie,
> ordered at the discretion of the Registrar. The Registrar is the
> auctioneer, and the minimum bid is 1. The method to be used for this
> auction is the zombie auction method if such a method exists, or
> otherwise the default auction method.
>
> }
>
> Amend Rule 2575 by replacing the final sentence with
> "Rules to the contrary notwithstanding, the talisman for the Distributor
> is possessed by emself (and is transferred to em if it ever is not), and
> e CANNOT deregister or be deregistered."
>
> For each player who is not eir own prior master, transfer the talisman
> for em to eir prior master.
This should probably specify "master
