Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
Oh okay, this sounds really cool. I'm all for doing a shorter version of this as G. suggested. On 6/25/2018 6:18 PM, Alex Smith wrote: On Mon, 2018-06-25 at 18:00 -0400, ATMunn wrote: What is FRC? It's a former subgame from Nomic World which eventually became its own thing. (I'm not sure if it's all that good for a /tournament/ as it works better if you don't play in too cut-throat a manner.) The name stands for "Fantasy Rules Committee", although it isn't very related to how the game actually works. The basic idea is that players make statements, each of which must be consistent with all the preceding statements; if you don't submit one for a certain length of time you're eliminated, if you submit an inconsistent statement it doesn't count and there's some sort of penalty (either a lockout "you must wait X days before trying again" or just a reduction of the deadline). When all but one player is eliminated, they win the round and a new round starts from scratch. The concept of being consistent is rather ill-defined but part of the charm of the game, as it makes it very flexible and different judges will interpret it in different ways. In its simplest form, players will make statements about future statements, and players making the future statements will have to try to conform with those. The game normally gets more and more difficult as time goes on as the sorts of statements you can make get more and more restricted. Consistency can be generalised in rather more ways than that, though, e.g. if the first few statements of a round are in the form of sentences taken from a story, breaking from that would be considered by many judges to be an inconsistency in its own right. At that point, things like continuity errors would be flagged up as inconsistencies (and players would be likely to post lots of exposition about future events in the story in an attempt to trip each other up into making one...). You're also not allowed to make a statement that makes the game too difficult; this is also pretty subjective and ill-defined! The FRC's metarules allow for a vote to override the judge's decision on whether a statement is valid, helping to replace some of the subjectivity with a different form of subjectivity.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
On Mon, 2018-06-25 at 18:00 -0400, ATMunn wrote: > What is FRC? It's a former subgame from Nomic World which eventually became its own thing. (I'm not sure if it's all that good for a /tournament/ as it works better if you don't play in too cut-throat a manner.) The name stands for "Fantasy Rules Committee", although it isn't very related to how the game actually works. The basic idea is that players make statements, each of which must be consistent with all the preceding statements; if you don't submit one for a certain length of time you're eliminated, if you submit an inconsistent statement it doesn't count and there's some sort of penalty (either a lockout "you must wait X days before trying again" or just a reduction of the deadline). When all but one player is eliminated, they win the round and a new round starts from scratch. The concept of being consistent is rather ill-defined but part of the charm of the game, as it makes it very flexible and different judges will interpret it in different ways. In its simplest form, players will make statements about future statements, and players making the future statements will have to try to conform with those. The game normally gets more and more difficult as time goes on as the sorts of statements you can make get more and more restricted. Consistency can be generalised in rather more ways than that, though, e.g. if the first few statements of a round are in the form of sentences taken from a story, breaking from that would be considered by many judges to be an inconsistency in its own right. At that point, things like continuity errors would be flagged up as inconsistencies (and players would be likely to post lots of exposition about future events in the story in an attempt to trip each other up into making one...). You're also not allowed to make a statement that makes the game too difficult; this is also pretty subjective and ill-defined! The FRC's metarules allow for a vote to override the judge's decision on whether a statement is valid, helping to replace some of the subjectivity with a different form of subjectivity. -- ais523
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
Oh, sorry! It came up in a discussion thread a few weeks ago so I didn't
elaborate this time.
FRC stands for Fantasy Rules Committee. It's a nomic that's still running
(in a Google Group currently) that started in Nomic World (in 1993).
Nomic World also spawned Agora. In a DIS thread a few weeks ago, we were
musing that Agora might be the longest-running Nomic, but decided that FRC
has been running a few months longer (FRC started *within* Nomic World as a
sub-nomic, while Agora started after Nomic World ended).
FRC is different in spirit: it has a set of core rules which (almost) never
change and aren't the subject of game play. A round consists of making
moves ("fantasy rules") following a given theme (theme changes each round)
with the object being to make the last legal move. Themes have included
crossword puzzles, collective fiction-writing, and all kinds of other things.
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, ATMunn wrote:
> What is FRC?
>
> On 6/25/2018 1:20 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> >
> >
> > Actually a thought from some of our recent conversation about ancient Agoran
> > history and thinking of "Agoran history, theory or culture":
> >
> > 1. An FRC-like game (speeded up).
> > 2. Legal theme for Fantasy Rules - goal in making FRC Rules is to progress
> > a Court Case forward with Agoran-style Arguments (silly or real).
> > 3. Case goal is to determine "who is the true inheritor of Nomic World,
> > FRC or Agora?" or something like that.
> >
> > On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > > I've sometimes thought about doing a trivia/puzzle quiz that's mostly
> > > answerable from current docs (like FLR and CFJ archives). Questions
> > > like "what current Rule has had the most changes per time" (answered
> > > by dividing # of amendments by time since creation). Pretty
> > > straightforward so maybe an option?
> > >
> > > Totally agree on levity/not serious.
> > >
> > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote:
> > > > Idea: A debate on a topic of Agoran history, theory, or culture, but
> > > > not something overly serious, something with slight levity.
> > > >
> > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Kerim Aydin
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations
> > > > > governing the Birthday Tournament for this year:
> > > > >
> > > > >1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday
> > > > > Extravaganza,
> > > > >and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or
> > > > > persons
> > > > >have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament.
> > > > >
> > > > >2. That's it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Commentary:
> > > > > We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections
> > > > > before
> > > > > the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had
> > > > > plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well.
> > > > > I'll be
> > > > > traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run
> > > > > anything
> > > > > that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for
> > > > > something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few
> > > > > too...)
> > > > >
> > > > > This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3
> > > > > objections ball
> > > > > rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about
> > > > > that
> > > > > I'll not do it.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
What is FRC? On 6/25/2018 1:20 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: Actually a thought from some of our recent conversation about ancient Agoran history and thinking of "Agoran history, theory or culture": 1. An FRC-like game (speeded up). 2. Legal theme for Fantasy Rules - goal in making FRC Rules is to progress a Court Case forward with Agoran-style Arguments (silly or real). 3. Case goal is to determine "who is the true inheritor of Nomic World, FRC or Agora?" or something like that. On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote: I've sometimes thought about doing a trivia/puzzle quiz that's mostly answerable from current docs (like FLR and CFJ archives). Questions like "what current Rule has had the most changes per time" (answered by dividing # of amendments by time since creation). Pretty straightforward so maybe an option? Totally agree on levity/not serious. On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: Idea: A debate on a topic of Agoran history, theory, or culture, but not something overly serious, something with slight levity. On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday Extravaganza, and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or persons have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. 2. That's it. Commentary: We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll be traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run anything that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few too...) This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections ball rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about that I'll not do it.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
I like this idea. I'd participate. On 6/25/2018 11:15 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: I've sometimes thought about doing a trivia/puzzle quiz that's mostly answerable from current docs (like FLR and CFJ archives). Questions like "what current Rule has had the most changes per time" (answered by dividing # of amendments by time since creation). Pretty straightforward so maybe an option? Totally agree on levity/not serious. On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: Idea: A debate on a topic of Agoran history, theory, or culture, but not something overly serious, something with slight levity. On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday Extravaganza, and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or persons have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. 2. That's it. Commentary: We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll be traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run anything that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few too...) This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections ball rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about that I'll not do it.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Alex Smith wrote: > On Mon, 2018-06-25 at 14:36 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > Totally happy for you to take over again either before or after the > > tournament :) (If you haven't gone further on pokemon I like the FRC > > idea pending what others think, happy to write a draft). > > > > If we don't get 3 objections to the method, a Contract can still > > start on the birthday, with the Regulation that makes the contract > > winner into the tournament winner not happening until after that. > > I think the method shown here is scammable because there are no > restrictions on the contract itself. The Herald could just choose to > give emself a win. It's effectively like voting on a proposal before > you see its text. > > Apart from that, I don't object to the idea behind the method. It's > basically a revival of the old Champion's Contest concept (although > that was without-2-objections and required the contract's text to be > available in advance). Yah, I was thinking, we're trying to get around the 4-day clock but we want the contract itself to be finalized and published before the birthday starts (with no substitutions), so: 1. Write/proto/publish the Contract before the birthday, but it can be immediately before. 2. Include in the tournament intent a hash of the contract with appropriate protective language[*]. 3. Play the contract starting on the birthday. 4. Intent time clears sometime after the birthday and converts any contract wins that happened in the mean time into tournament wins, and the hash ensures no substitutions.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
On Mon, 2018-06-25 at 14:36 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > Totally happy for you to take over again either before or after the > tournament :) (If you haven't gone further on pokemon I like the FRC > idea pending what others think, happy to write a draft). > > If we don't get 3 objections to the method, a Contract can still > start on the birthday, with the Regulation that makes the contract > winner into the tournament winner not happening until after that. I think the method shown here is scammable because there are no restrictions on the contract itself. The Herald could just choose to give emself a win. It's effectively like voting on a proposal before you see its text. Apart from that, I don't object to the idea behind the method. It's basically a revival of the old Champion's Contest concept (although that was without-2-objections and required the contract's text to be available in advance). -- ais523
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
Totally happy for you to take over again either before or after the tournament :) (If you haven't gone further on pokemon I like the FRC idea pending what others think, happy to write a draft). If we don't get 3 objections to the method, a Contract can still start on the birthday, with the Regulation that makes the contract winner into the tournament winner not happening until after that. On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Corona wrote: > Oh no, I forgot it had to make it 4 days before the birthday due to the > notice/intent. I apologize. > > ~Corona > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > > > > I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations > > governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: > > > > 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday > > Extravaganza, > > and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or persons > > have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. > > > > 2. That's it. > > > > > > Commentary: > > We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before > > the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had > > plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll be > > traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run anything > > that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for > > something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few too...) > > > > This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections > > ball > > rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about that > > I'll not do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
Oh no, I forgot it had to make it 4 days before the birthday due to the notice/intent. I apologize. ~Corona On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 4:27 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations > governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: > > 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday > Extravaganza, > and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or persons > have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. > > 2. That's it. > > > Commentary: > We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before > the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had > plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll be > traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run anything > that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for > something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few too...) > > This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections > ball > rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about that > I'll not do it. > > > > > > > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
I like that and we could see whether FRC people might care to join. On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 1:20 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > Actually a thought from some of our recent conversation about ancient Agoran > history and thinking of "Agoran history, theory or culture": > > 1. An FRC-like game (speeded up). > 2. Legal theme for Fantasy Rules - goal in making FRC Rules is to progress > a Court Case forward with Agoran-style Arguments (silly or real). > 3. Case goal is to determine "who is the true inheritor of Nomic World, > FRC or Agora?" or something like that. > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote: >> I've sometimes thought about doing a trivia/puzzle quiz that's mostly >> answerable from current docs (like FLR and CFJ archives). Questions >> like "what current Rule has had the most changes per time" (answered >> by dividing # of amendments by time since creation). Pretty >> straightforward so maybe an option? >> >> Totally agree on levity/not serious. >> >> On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: >> > Idea: A debate on a topic of Agoran history, theory, or culture, but >> > not something overly serious, something with slight levity. >> > >> > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Kerim Aydin >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > >> > > I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations >> > > governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: >> > > >> > > 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday >> > > Extravaganza, >> > > and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or >> > > persons >> > > have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. >> > > >> > > 2. That's it. >> > > >> > > >> > > Commentary: >> > > We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before >> > > the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had >> > > plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll >> > > be >> > > traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run >> > > anything >> > > that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for >> > > something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few >> > > too...) >> > > >> > > This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections >> > > ball >> > > rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about >> > > that >> > > I'll not do it. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> >> >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
Actually a thought from some of our recent conversation about ancient Agoran history and thinking of "Agoran history, theory or culture": 1. An FRC-like game (speeded up). 2. Legal theme for Fantasy Rules - goal in making FRC Rules is to progress a Court Case forward with Agoran-style Arguments (silly or real). 3. Case goal is to determine "who is the true inheritor of Nomic World, FRC or Agora?" or something like that. On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote: > I've sometimes thought about doing a trivia/puzzle quiz that's mostly > answerable from current docs (like FLR and CFJ archives). Questions > like "what current Rule has had the most changes per time" (answered > by dividing # of amendments by time since creation). Pretty > straightforward so maybe an option? > > Totally agree on levity/not serious. > > On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: > > Idea: A debate on a topic of Agoran history, theory, or culture, but > > not something overly serious, something with slight levity. > > > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Kerim Aydin > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations > > > governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: > > > > > > 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday > > > Extravaganza, > > > and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or > > > persons > > > have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. > > > > > > 2. That's it. > > > > > > > > > Commentary: > > > We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before > > > the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had > > > plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll > > > be > > > traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run > > > anything > > > that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for > > > something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few too...) > > > > > > This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections > > > ball > > > rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about > > > that > > > I'll not do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
I've sometimes thought about doing a trivia/puzzle quiz that's mostly answerable from current docs (like FLR and CFJ archives). Questions like "what current Rule has had the most changes per time" (answered by dividing # of amendments by time since creation). Pretty straightforward so maybe an option? Totally agree on levity/not serious. On Mon, 25 Jun 2018, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: > Idea: A debate on a topic of Agoran history, theory, or culture, but > not something overly serious, something with slight levity. > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > > > I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations > > governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: > > > > 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday Extravaganza, > > and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or persons > > have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. > > > > 2. That's it. > > > > > > Commentary: > > We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before > > the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had > > plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll be > > traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run anything > > that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for > > something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few too...) > > > > This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections ball > > rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about that > > I'll not do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
DIS: Re: BUS: deputy-[Herald] Tournament Proposal
Idea: A debate on a topic of Agoran history, theory, or culture, but not something overly serious, something with slight levity. On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 10:27 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > I deputize for the Herald to propose the following set of Regulations > governing the Birthday Tournament for this year: > > 1. If the Herald has created a contract titled 25th Birthday Extravaganza, > and if the provisions of that contract determine that a person or persons > have Won the Extravaganza, then those persons win the Tournament. > > 2. That's it. > > > Commentary: > We've passed the window for a Tournament starting w/o 3 objections before > the Birthday. I'm a wee bit annoyed, because the previous Herald had > plenty of warning to delegate if e couldn't do it emself. Oh well. I'll be > traveling on the birthday itself so it would be hard for me to run anything > that takes much attention on that day, but at this point looking for > something really simple if someone has ideas (I'll throw out a few too...) > > This Tournament -> Contract method is so I can get the w/o 3 objections ball > rolling in the next few hours, if people have too much heartburn about that > I'll not do it. > > > > > > >
