Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> On Nov 10, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Aris Merchant wrote:
> >> As a member of the aforementioned younger generation (You're not going
> >> to get any more that that the difference is significant), I agree
> >> about the obsolescence of IRC. I'm anomalous among my generation in
> >> that I still use email as my main mode of communication. Most of them
> >> use text or instant messaging. I'm definitely in favor of this
> >> Discord/Slack idea.
> > 
> > What we *really* should try is a MUD or MOO.
> 
> Wait, someone other than me remembers MOOs? Christ alive. I’ve even got a 
> running LambdaMOO 
> instance running, somewhere, as part of an experiment in writing an HTML5 
> front-end so that 
> the whole idea doesn’t disappear into the mists of history.
> 
> We should compare notes.

Heh, it was kind of a joke, because Agora began out of Nomic World, which
was a MUD, see Rule 1727.

That said, someone set up a (maybe Lambda)MOO for Agorans to use several
years ago, but we mostly spent the time building Agora-themed stuff and
chatting and looking at each others' stuff, never made any rules attaching
the two (though I think it was a discussion forum).  Never actually ran
one myself, but I always liked them :).

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Owen Jacobson]

On Nov 10, 2016, at 4:21 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> As a member of the aforementioned younger generation (You're not going
>> to get any more that that the difference is significant), I agree
>> about the obsolescence of IRC. I'm anomalous among my generation in
>> that I still use email as my main mode of communication. Most of them
>> use text or instant messaging. I'm definitely in favor of this
>> Discord/Slack idea.
> 
> What we *really* should try is a MUD or MOO.

Wait, someone other than me remembers MOOs? Christ alive. I’ve even got a 
running LambdaMOO instance running, somewhere, as part of an experiment in 
writing an HTML5 front-end so that the whole idea doesn’t disappear into the 
mists of history.

We should compare notes.

-o

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Aris Merchant wrote:
> As a member of the aforementioned younger generation (You're not going
> to get any more that that the difference is significant), I agree
> about the obsolescence of IRC. I'm anomalous among my generation in
> that I still use email as my main mode of communication. Most of them
> use text or instant messaging. I'm definitely in favor of this
> Discord/Slack idea.

What we *really* should try is a MUD or MOO.

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Kerim Aydin]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Aris Merchant wrote:
> On Friday, November 4, 2016, Michael Brown  wrote:
> 
>   On 5 November 2016 at 14:35, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> I'm definitely in favor of this
> Discord/Slack idea. I don't know about cost and effort, but for a
> discussion forum? Go for it. Besides, it will simplify my plotting
> about the next generation of inter-nomic cooperation. I have 
> plans to
> repurpose the NPS (Nomic preservation society) for more peaceful 
> aims.
> That's all I'm telling from now...
> 
> 
> I've been tossing around similar ideas I think. Nomic Preservation Society, 
> League of Nomics, or 
> United Nomics... something like that. A meta-nomic that is itself a nomic, if 
> you will.
> Also as something to perhaps take up the mantle of the thoroughly defunct 
> nomic.net...
> 
> That sounds exactly like what I was thinking. Let's compare notes!


>From the deep archives (2007; second one may be related to the last time
we tried to invade BlogNomic):
 
Rule 2148/1 (Power=2)
Ambassador

  The ambassador is an office, responsible for relations with
  foreign nomics.

  A foreign nomic may grant certain powers and privileges to
  Agora's ambassador.  If so, the ambassador shall generally
  exercise such powers in such manner as e sees fit, subject to
  other rules and orders.

  All players are prohibited from falsely claiming, to any nomic,
  to be the ambassador.

--

Rule 2147/1 (Power=2)
Protectorates

  Whereas Agora, being the superpower of nomics, has an inherent
  responsibility to lead the nomic world; and whereas Agora
  desires to encourage growth and promotion of the nomic
  community, be it hereby known that Agora shall serve as
  benevolent protector to any nomic which requests such status
  (hereafter referred to as the protectorate).

  In order to become a protectorate, a nomic must specify in its
  ruleset that it submits to Agora as its benevolent protector.
  It must also have rules or other gamestate arranged such that
  any protective decree proclaimed by the ambassador will take
  full effect upon proclamation.  For this purpose, the nomic may
  specify the forum in which proclamation is to be made, provided
  that it is reasonably possible for the ambassador to use the
  specified forum.  Any restriction whatsoever on the content of a
  protective decree disqualifies the nomic from being a
  protectorate.

  If the criteria specified in the preceding paragraph are met,
  the ambassador may make the nomic a protectorate with Agoran
  Consent.  If a protectorate ever does not meet these criteria,
  it ceases to be a protectorate.  The ambassador shall check
  every month whether each protectorate continues to meet the
  criteria, and shall announce whenever a protectorate has ceased
  to be a protectorate.

  The ambassador's report shall include a list of all
  protectorates, with contact details for each, and for each the
  forum in which it is most appropriate to proclaim protective
  decrees that target that protectorate.

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Alexis Hunt]

On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:18 AM Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Michael Brown 
> wrote:
> > Well it's not really more than that at this stage. :D Before getting into
> > details perhaps we should find a different discussion forum rather than
> > clogging agora-discussion? I could easily make an NPS Slack server...
> Sure. I was thinking of a (private) email thread, but that's messy as
> you need to keep the whole reply log in case you want to show it to
> anyone... Happy to try it. A word of warning: I've never used Slack. I
> have a GitHub, but I haven't really used that either.
>
> -Aris
>

I personally have a strong preference for Discord over Slack.

-Alexis

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Luis Ressel]

On Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:24:31 -0500
Nicholas Evans  wrote:

> 3) The /other/ discussion forum: IRC. We're still using IRC. I'm 24,
> and the fact that I know what IRC is is an anomaly. We're not going
> to bring any youngsters into the IRC fold, especially when much nicer
> IRC-like solutions like Discord and Slack dominate.

Counterexample: Im 20, and I have first heard of Slack this year (and
haven't bothered to find out what it is). I've never heard of Discord,
either. What's wrong with IRC?

-- 
aranea

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Aris Merchant]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:24 PM, Michael Brown  wrote:
> Well it's not really more than that at this stage. :D Before getting into
> details perhaps we should find a different discussion forum rather than
> clogging agora-discussion? I could easily make an NPS Slack server...
Sure. I was thinking of a (private) email thread, but that's messy as
you need to keep the whole reply log in case you want to show it to
anyone... Happy to try it. A word of warning: I've never used Slack. I
have a GitHub, but I haven't really used that either.

-Aris

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Michael Brown]

Well it's not really more than that at this stage. :D Before getting into
details perhaps we should find a different discussion forum rather than
clogging agora-discussion? I could easily make an NPS Slack server...

On 5 November 2016 at 15:30, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Friday, November 4, 2016, Michael Brown  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 5 November 2016 at 14:35, Aris Merchant > l.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm definitely in favor of this
>>> Discord/Slack idea. I don't know about cost and effort, but for a
>>> discussion forum? Go for it. Besides, it will simplify my plotting
>>> about the next generation of inter-nomic cooperation. I have plans to
>>> repurpose the NPS (Nomic preservation society) for more peaceful aims.
>>> That's all I'm telling from now...
>>>
>>
>> I've been tossing around similar ideas I think. Nomic Preservation
>> Society, League of Nomics, or United Nomics... something like that. A
>> meta-nomic that is itself a nomic, if you will. Also as something to
>> perhaps take up the mantle of the thoroughly defunct nomic.net...
>>
> That sounds exactly like what I was thinking. Let's compare notes!
>
> -Aris
>



-- 
---.sig---
DISCLOSURE (updated on legal advice): The information in this email is
confidential. If its contents are disclosed our lawyers will swoop down
from helicopters and smash through the skylight nearest you and drag you
away with a black bag over your head. They will then take you to our super
secret headquarters and make you fight to the death with other people who
shared this email. We will then watch said death match and place bets on
the winner. You will be given a large buck knife and an unlimited supply of
methamphetamines. If the fight becomes boring or there is a stalemate,
rabid dogs will be released into the arena to liven things up a bit. If the
dogs become docile, we will squirt them with water bottles until they
become temperamental.
--

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Aris Merchant]

On Friday, November 4, 2016, Michael Brown  wrote:

>
> On 5 November 2016 at 14:35, Aris Merchant  gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
>> I'm definitely in favor of this
>> Discord/Slack idea. I don't know about cost and effort, but for a
>> discussion forum? Go for it. Besides, it will simplify my plotting
>> about the next generation of inter-nomic cooperation. I have plans to
>> repurpose the NPS (Nomic preservation society) for more peaceful aims.
>> That's all I'm telling from now...
>>
>
> I've been tossing around similar ideas I think. Nomic Preservation
> Society, League of Nomics, or United Nomics... something like that. A
> meta-nomic that is itself a nomic, if you will. Also as something to
> perhaps take up the mantle of the thoroughly defunct nomic.net...
>
That sounds exactly like what I was thinking. Let's compare notes!

-Aris

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Aris Merchant]

On Friday, November 4, 2016, Michael Brown  wrote:

>
> On 5 November 2016 at 13:13, Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
>
>>
>> If you have ideas for founding rules that aren’t Suber’s, let me know at
>> this address?
>>
>
> Nothing terribly specific at this stage. I think perhaps something similar
> to Blognomic - or anything semi-imperial - might be better suited to the
> pull request model. It could be the subject of discussion once we know if
> anyone is interested.
>
Consider me interested.

-Aris

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Michael Brown]

On 5 November 2016 at 13:13, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

>
> If you have ideas for founding rules that aren’t Suber’s, let me know at
> this address?
>

Nothing terribly specific at this stage. I think perhaps something similar
to Blognomic - or anything semi-imperial - might be better suited to the
pull request model. It could be the subject of discussion once we know if
anyone is interested.

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Michael Brown]

On 5 November 2016 at 14:35, Aris Merchant <
thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'm definitely in favor of this
> Discord/Slack idea. I don't know about cost and effort, but for a
> discussion forum? Go for it. Besides, it will simplify my plotting
> about the next generation of inter-nomic cooperation. I have plans to
> repurpose the NPS (Nomic preservation society) for more peaceful aims.
> That's all I'm telling from now...
>

I've been tossing around similar ideas I think. Nomic Preservation Society,
League of Nomics, or United Nomics... something like that. A meta-nomic
that is itself a nomic, if you will. Also as something to perhaps take up
the mantle of the thoroughly defunct nomic.net...

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Aris Merchant]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Nicholas Evans  wrote:
> There's been some frustration voiced about the three mailing list system,
> again. I say again because there was a plan to migrate the mailing lists to
> a unified solution this summer, but it fell by the wayside as, presumably,
> the mailing list maintainer got busy. But now it's being brought up again. I
> thought we'd have a unified discussion for it instead of putting it in
> replies to other things.
>
> (I'd like to link you to the appropriate discussions from this summer, but
> since they're split among multiple archives it's difficult. Look in your
> history, or the archives' history, for "Future of Agora", "might as well try
> for a show of hands" and "Rule Improvements".)
>
> 1) OFF, BUS, and DIS. The split is useful, yes, but also a relic. One reason
> we maintain this split (besides an incredible conservatism) is because it
> prevents accidental action-taking or burying actions in mounds of
> discussion. There's probably better solutions to this though.
Keep it. See below.

> 2) Combining BUS and DIS. I'm not against this, but would like some sort of
> Subject convention that makes it remain easy to find office-relevant
> information.
I'm the Promotor, and this would make my job a nightmare. A worse one
than it already. (Not sure if that was a joke.) I like the three list
system. It's easy to make mistakes while sending, but it makes the
archives so much neater to look through. Please, just leave it.

> 3) The /other/ discussion forum: IRC. We're still using IRC. I'm 24, and the
> fact that I know what IRC is is an anomaly. We're not going to bring any
> youngsters into the IRC fold, especially when much nicer IRC-like solutions
> like Discord and Slack dominate. Speaking of, I saw that BlogNomic has a
> Slack and wondered what it'd be like to have a unified Slack/Discord for
> nomics. For those of you unfamiliar: you have a server with some number of
> text and voice channels. Slack's very popular among tech and freelance
> professionals, and Discord is very popular among gamers/them youths. Both
> are accessible from websites, downloadable clients, and smartphone apps. We
> could co-operate with BlogNomic and have a unified Nomic server with
> channels for each nomic, as well as a general channel. No longer fragmented
> kingdoms of yore.
As a member of the aforementioned younger generation (You're not going
to get any more that that the difference is significant), I agree
about the obsolescence of IRC. I'm anomalous among my generation in
that I still use email as my main mode of communication. Most of them
use text or instant messaging. I'm definitely in favor of this
Discord/Slack idea. I don't know about cost and effort, but for a
discussion forum? Go for it. Besides, it will simplify my plotting
about the next generation of inter-nomic cooperation. I have plans to
repurpose the NPS (Nomic preservation society) for more peaceful aims.
That's all I'm telling from now...

-Aris

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Owen Jacobson]

I have a couple of other people on my end who were interested in a Github Nomic 
experiment earlier this year. I’ve reached out to them to see if they’re still 
interested; if they are, I’ll spin something up over the weekend.

If you have ideas for founding rules that aren’t Suber’s, let me know at this 
address?

-o

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 11:10 PM, Michael Brown  wrote:
> 
> Remember that Github also has built in wiki, issue system and web hosting 
> (Jekyll powered -- so there's some automation potential) as well. So there is 
> some flexibility in how you can manage discussions and game state.
> 
> On 5 November 2016 at 13:02, Alexis Hunt  > wrote:
> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 PM Michael Brown  > wrote:
> 
> On 5 November 2016 at 11:47, Owen Jacobson  > wrote:
> (Personally, I’d like to experiment with a Nomic executed through Github pull 
> requests.)
> 
> ^^^ This as well. The handful of Github nomics I have seen don't seem to work 
> very well though, either because they don't get very many players and/or they 
> start from the Suber rule set which is not at all well adapted to the pull 
> request model. If others are interested in an experimental little Github 
> nomic I'd love to join in.
> 
> 
> Github seems mediocre for gameplay but lovely for official reports.
> 
> -Alexis 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---.sig---
> DISCLOSURE (updated on legal advice): The information in this email is 
> confidential. If its contents are disclosed our lawyers will swoop down from 
> helicopters and smash through the skylight nearest you and drag you away with 
> a black bag over your head. They will then take you to our super secret 
> headquarters and make you fight to the death with other people who shared 
> this email. We will then watch said death match and place bets on the winner. 
> You will be given a large buck knife and an unlimited supply of 
> methamphetamines. If the fight becomes boring or there is a stalemate, rabid 
> dogs will be released into the arena to liven things up a bit. If the dogs 
> become docile, we will squirt them with water bottles until they become 
> temperamental.
> --

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Michael Brown]

Remember that Github also has built in wiki, issue system and web hosting
(Jekyll powered -- so there's some automation potential) as well. So there
is some flexibility in how you can manage discussions and game state.

On 5 November 2016 at 13:02, Alexis Hunt  wrote:

> On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 PM Michael Brown 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 5 November 2016 at 11:47, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>> (Personally, I’d like to experiment with a Nomic executed through Github
>> pull requests.)
>>
>>
>> ^^^ This as well. The handful of Github nomics I have seen don't seem to
>> work very well though, either because they don't get very many players
>> and/or they start from the Suber rule set which is not at all well adapted
>> to the pull request model. If others are interested in an experimental
>> little Github nomic I'd love to join in.
>>
>>
> Github seems mediocre for gameplay but lovely for official reports.
>
> -Alexis
>



-- 
---.sig---
DISCLOSURE (updated on legal advice): The information in this email is
confidential. If its contents are disclosed our lawyers will swoop down
from helicopters and smash through the skylight nearest you and drag you
away with a black bag over your head. They will then take you to our super
secret headquarters and make you fight to the death with other people who
shared this email. We will then watch said death match and place bets on
the winner. You will be given a large buck knife and an unlimited supply of
methamphetamines. If the fight becomes boring or there is a stalemate,
rabid dogs will be released into the arena to liven things up a bit. If the
dogs become docile, we will squirt them with water bottles until they
become temperamental.
--

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Alexis Hunt]

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 11:00 PM Michael Brown 
wrote:

>
> On 5 November 2016 at 11:47, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
> (Personally, I’d like to experiment with a Nomic executed through Github
> pull requests.)
>
>
> ^^^ This as well. The handful of Github nomics I have seen don't seem to
> work very well though, either because they don't get very many players
> and/or they start from the Suber rule set which is not at all well adapted
> to the pull request model. If others are interested in an experimental
> little Github nomic I'd love to join in.
>
>
Github seems mediocre for gameplay but lovely for official reports.

-Alexis

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Michael Brown]

On 5 November 2016 at 11:47, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> (Personally, I’d like to experiment with a Nomic executed through Github
> pull requests.)


^^^ This as well. The handful of Github nomics I have seen don't seem to
work very well though, either because they don't get very many players
and/or they start from the Suber rule set which is not at all well adapted
to the pull request model. If others are interested in an experimental
little Github nomic I'd love to join in.

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Owen Jacobson]

On Nov 4, 2016, at 9:47 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> Slack… isn’t open, which concerns me a lot. Right now they’re tolerant of 
> clients other than their own, so it’s technically possible to attach 
> archiving and to pull data from Slack, but the terms of service permit Slack 
> to revoke that permission at any time.
> 
> It’s also not memorable: If you’re using Slack’s free offering, you get a 
> searchable window of the 10,000 most recent messages. Since Slack follows the 
> dynamics of chat, 10k messages pass through fairly quickly. I’d tell you how 
> quickly, but you need to be on Slack’s paid tier to get statistics at a fine 
> enough grain to determine.
> 
> This brings me to my third objection to Slack: it’s EXPENSIVE. The paid tier 
> starts at USD 8 per user per month. Looking at the admin panel for a smallish 
> social Slack I use puts that into proportion: $2,640/yr for 33 active users. 
> I suspect the pricetag is beyond Agora’s budget.

Someone on IRC (irony) reminded me: IRC is a discussion forum, not an official 
forum, and therefore a lot less sensitive to these concerns. I’d be more than 
happy to have more discussion fora, either experimentally or permanently, even 
including Slack.

-o

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Nov 4, 2016, at 7:24 PM, Nicholas Evans  wrote:
> 
> There's been some frustration voiced about the three mailing list system, 
> again. I say again because there was a plan to migrate the mailing lists to a 
> unified solution this summer, but it fell by the wayside as, presumably, the 
> mailing list maintainer got busy. But now it's being brought up again. I 
> thought we'd have a unified discussion for it instead of putting it in 
> replies to other things.
> 
> (I'd like to link you to the appropriate discussions from this summer, but 
> since they're split among multiple archives it's difficult. Look in your 
> history, or the archives' history, for "Future of Agora", "might as well try 
> for a show of hands" and "Rule Improvements".)
> 
> 1) OFF, BUS, and DIS. The split is useful, yes, but also a relic. One reason 
> we maintain this split (besides an incredible conservatism) is because it 
> prevents accidental action-taking or burying actions in mounds of discussion. 
> There's probably better solutions to this though.
> 
> 2) Combining BUS and DIS. I'm not against this, but would like some sort of 
> Subject convention that makes it remain easy to find office-relevant 
> information.
> 
> 3) The /other/ discussion forum: IRC. We're still using IRC. I'm 24, and the 
> fact that I know what IRC is is an anomaly. We're not going to bring any 
> youngsters into the IRC fold, especially when much nicer IRC-like solutions 
> like Discord and Slack dominate. Speaking of, I saw that BlogNomic has a 
> Slack and wondered what it'd be like to have a unified Slack/Discord for 
> nomics. For those of you unfamiliar: you have a server with some number of 
> text and voice channels. Slack's very popular among tech and freelance 
> professionals, and Discord is very popular among gamers/them youths. Both are 
> accessible from websites, downloadable clients, and smartphone apps. We could 
> co-operate with BlogNomic and have a unified Nomic server with channels for 
> each nomic, as well as a general channel. No longer fragmented kingdoms of 
> yore.

ON MEDIUM

Email is an intrinsic part of the flavour of Agora. Its rules subtly assume 
email-like communication patterns, and the limitations and dynamics of email 
inform the kinds of proposals that get made and the kinds of discussions that 
happen. Looking at some of the referenced threads, I see a few proposals for 
adding non-email fora to Agora, or transplanting it: to Reddit, to wiki 
software, and so on. I think those are interesting proposals, but also that 
they’re best explored as small, free-standing Nomics in their own right.

(Personally, I’d like to experiment with a Nomic executed through Github pull 
requests.)

Email has some useful traits:

* It’s open - no single vendor controls it, which means Agora is not at the 
mercy of someone’s profit margins. Even if omd were to be unwilling to host the 
lists, Agora could continue on another email server with minimal disruption.

* It’s cheap - omd presumably has the actual numbers, but an internet-connected 
server capable of hosting Agora’s mailing lists costs peanuts to maintain.

* It’s universal - in spite of Google’s efforts, email clients remain one of 
the pieces of software that we can safely assume every potential player has. By 
using email, we’re only excluding people whose primary internet access is via a 
feature phone or via a sponsored device (think Internet Dot Org), and people 
who do not use the internet at all.

* It’s extensible - the more technically-inclined Agorans can easily automate 
report generation via email, or archival and search or do bulk text 
recognition, or otherwise experiment with Agora as a corpus of messages.

* It’s memorable - recording and referring back to email messages is very 
straightforward, both because it’s easy for everyone to keep relevant messages 
handy on their own mailer and because there are multiple archive services 
storing Agora email.

IRC hits almost all of those, but it’s not memorable. IRC messages get lost, 
fairly quickly; even IRC logging services with search don’t make it 
particularly straightforward to refer back to prior conversations, or to 
separate important messages (in Agora, actions and reports) from discussion and 
natter. As a few people have observed, IRC’s user experience is pretty poor, 
and I don’t see that improving any time soon.

Slack… isn’t open, which concerns me a lot. Right now they’re tolerant of 
clients other than their own, so it’s technically possible to attach archiving 
and to pull data from Slack, but the terms of service permit Slack to revoke 
that permission at any time.

It’s also not memorable: If you’re using Slack’s free offering, you get a 
searchable window of the 10,000 most recent messages. Since Slack follows the 
dynamics of chat, 10k messages pass through fairly quickly. I’d tell you how 
quickly, but you need to be on Slack’s paid tier to get statistics at a fine 

Re: DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Michael Brown]

3') Or a dedicated Agora Slack server with separate channels for OFF, BUS
and DIS...

On 5 November 2016 at 09:24, Nicholas Evans  wrote:

> There's been some frustration voiced about the three mailing list system,
> again. I say again because there was a plan to migrate the mailing lists to
> a unified solution this summer, but it fell by the wayside as, presumably,
> the mailing list maintainer got busy. But now it's being brought up again.
> I thought we'd have a unified discussion for it instead of putting it in
> replies to other things.
>
> (I'd like to link you to the appropriate discussions from this summer, but
> since they're split among multiple archives it's difficult. Look in your
> history, or the archives' history, for "Future of Agora", "might as well
> try for a show of hands" and "Rule Improvements".)
>
> 1) OFF, BUS, and DIS. The split is useful, yes, but also a relic. One
> reason we maintain this split (besides an incredible conservatism) is
> because it prevents accidental action-taking or burying actions in mounds
> of discussion. There's probably better solutions to this though.
>
> 2) Combining BUS and DIS. I'm not against this, but would like some sort
> of Subject convention that makes it remain easy to find office-relevant
> information.
>
> 3) The /other/ discussion forum: IRC. We're still using IRC. I'm 24, and
> the fact that I know what IRC is is an anomaly. We're not going to bring
> any youngsters into the IRC fold, especially when much nicer IRC-like
> solutions like Discord and Slack dominate. Speaking of, I saw that
> BlogNomic has a Slack and wondered what it'd be like to have a unified
> Slack/Discord for nomics. For those of you unfamiliar: you have a server
> with some number of text and voice channels. Slack's very popular among
> tech and freelance professionals, and Discord is very popular among
> gamers/them youths. Both are accessible from websites, downloadable
> clients, and smartphone apps. We could co-operate with BlogNomic and have a
> unified Nomic server with channels for each nomic, as well as a general
> channel. No longer fragmented kingdoms of yore.
>



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DIS: The State of Discussion, Mailing Lists, IRC, and things that were actually invented this century.

[Nicholas Evans]

There's been some frustration voiced about the three mailing list system,
again. I say again because there was a plan to migrate the mailing lists to
a unified solution this summer, but it fell by the wayside as, presumably,
the mailing list maintainer got busy. But now it's being brought up again.
I thought we'd have a unified discussion for it instead of putting it in
replies to other things.

(I'd like to link you to the appropriate discussions from this summer, but
since they're split among multiple archives it's difficult. Look in your
history, or the archives' history, for "Future of Agora", "might as well
try for a show of hands" and "Rule Improvements".)

1) OFF, BUS, and DIS. The split is useful, yes, but also a relic. One
reason we maintain this split (besides an incredible conservatism) is
because it prevents accidental action-taking or burying actions in mounds
of discussion. There's probably better solutions to this though.

2) Combining BUS and DIS. I'm not against this, but would like some sort of
Subject convention that makes it remain easy to find office-relevant
information.

3) The /other/ discussion forum: IRC. We're still using IRC. I'm 24, and
the fact that I know what IRC is is an anomaly. We're not going to bring
any youngsters into the IRC fold, especially when much nicer IRC-like
solutions like Discord and Slack dominate. Speaking of, I saw that
BlogNomic has a Slack and wondered what it'd be like to have a unified
Slack/Discord for nomics. For those of you unfamiliar: you have a server
with some number of text and voice channels. Slack's very popular among
tech and freelance professionals, and Discord is very popular among
gamers/them youths. Both are accessible from websites, downloadable
clients, and smartphone apps. We could co-operate with BlogNomic and have a
unified Nomic server with channels for each nomic, as well as a general
channel. No longer fragmented kingdoms of yore.