Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-16 Thread Jason Cobb
On 9/16/19 8:19 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: Oops, forgot this part: In addition to proposals and voting, we did do blot-expunging tokens. I was actually thinking about the exact opposite of this - gaining Coins in exchange for also gaining Blots, sort of a lender of last resort thing. I'm not

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-16 Thread Kerim Aydin
On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:44 PM James Cook wrote: > What other shortages has Agora had in the past? CFJs? Voting? Tradable > blot-expunging tokens would probably be an even worse idea than > putting a price on voting, but oops, too late, I guess I just > suggested that. Oops, forgot this part:

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-16 Thread Kerim Aydin
On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 4:44 PM James Cook wrote: > Did shortages make the gameplay worse? I worry they might discourage > new players, or encourage people to submit big proposals combining > unrelated things. Shortages do sound fun, though. > > In the spirit of markets, it might be fun to limit

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-16 Thread James Cook
On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 16:32, Kerim Aydin wrote: > On 9/14/2019 9:57 AM, James Cook wrote: > > I'm being an officer to have fun, help out the game, and earn brownie > > points with you all. I wouldn't do it just for the Coins. > > Agreed, for the most part. > > > That being said, if we do assume

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-16 Thread Kerim Aydin
On 9/14/2019 9:57 AM, James Cook wrote: I'm being an officer to have fun, help out the game, and earn brownie points with you all. I wouldn't do it just for the Coins. Agreed, for the most part. That being said, if we do assume Coins motivate people, I think there is an argument for

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-14 Thread James Cook
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 at 21:49, Timon Walshe-Grey wrote: > On Thursday, September 12, 2019 6:15 PM, James Cook > wrote: > > Benefits: > > * Self-balancing: We still have the property that if officers slack > > off, then efficiency cheques are worth more, simply because fewer will > > be issued. >

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-12 Thread Aris Merchant
On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 9:17 PM Reuben Staley wrote: > On 9/12/19 12:15 PM, James Cook wrote:> What if, instead of these > balancing rules, each interest group does a > > stock (cheque) buy-back every quarter, and the only way to cash in a > > cheque between quarters is to sell it to another

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-12 Thread Reuben Staley
On 9/12/19 12:15 PM, James Cook wrote:> What if, instead of these balancing rules, each interest group does a stock (cheque) buy-back every quarter, and the only way to cash in a cheque between quarters is to sell it to another player? Specifically: * Make cheques of each interest group a

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-12 Thread Timon Walshe-Grey
On Thursday, September 12, 2019 6:15 PM, James Cook wrote: > Benefits: > * Self-balancing: We still have the property that if officers slack > off, then efficiency cheques are worth more, simply because fewer will > be issued. Thinking about this more, I'm not sure this is a benefit at all. If

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-12 Thread James Cook
On Thu., Sep. 12, 2019, 14:15 James Cook, wrote: > On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 10:07, Reuben Staley > wrote: > > Create a new rule with title "Balancing", power 2, and text: > >During the first Eastman week of each month, the Treasuror CAN and > >SHALL perform the following actions,

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-12 Thread James Cook
On Mon, 9 Sep 2019 at 10:07, Reuben Staley wrote: > Create a new rule with title "Balancing", power 2, and text: >During the first Eastman week of each month, the Treasuror CAN and >SHALL perform the following actions, collectively known as >Balancing, in sequence: > >

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Aris Merchant
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 6:12 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > On 9/10/2019 4:43 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > > If not, we’re gating proposals out of an > > abstract opinion that they ought to be gated rather than because it’s in > > anyone’s interest. > > I could say it's a load on everyone (i.e. the

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Kerim Aydin
On 9/10/2019 4:43 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > If not, we’re gating proposals out of an > abstract opinion that they ought to be gated rather than because it’s in > anyone’s interest. I could say it's a load on everyone (i.e. the "voters") when lots of proposals get submitted without much

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Jason Cobb
On 9/10/19 8:21 PM, Jason Cobb wrote: I've written a script to parse the distributions, so the fact that there are proposals doesn't affect me there. Whoops - yes the fact that proposals exist does affect me, but the number doesn't. -- Jason Cobb

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Jason Cobb
On 9/9/19 6:10 AM, Reuben Staley wrote: Create a new rule with title "Interest Groups", power 1, and text:   An interest group is an entity defined as such by this rule. Each   interest group has a goal. The following are the interest groups   of Agora and their goals:   A.

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Jason Cobb
On 9/10/19 7:43 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: Who do infinite free proposals hurt? The only people I can think of who might be adversely affected are the Promotor and the Assessor (if the proposals are really bad, they’ll never hit the Rulekeepor, and extra the amount of work for voters isn’t big).

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Reuben Staley
On 9/10/19 9:43 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: I really *do* like the idea of different sectors with different "performance values" with currency speculation between them, and the event-constrained random walk governing the various values (i.e. something semi-predictable so an attentive player can

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Aris Merchant
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 4:20 PM Reuben Staley wrote: > On 9/10/19 4:10 AM, Timon Walshe-Grey wrote:> I do wonder if maybe "all > the interlocking cogs... turning fine" is part of the problem. In > real-life political systems, things keep changing because people still > feel that they are

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Reuben Staley
On 9/10/19 4:10 AM, Timon Walshe-Grey wrote:> I do wonder if maybe "all the interlocking cogs... turning fine" is part of the problem. In real-life political systems, things keep changing because people still feel that they are inadequate or unjust, or because there are current events that

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Kerim Aydin
On 9/9/2019 3:10 AM, Reuben Staley wrote: >During the first Eastman week of each month, the Treasuror CAN and >SHALL perform the following actions, collectively known as >Balancing, in sequence: Now that I look more closely, my specific concerns are doubled - this

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Kerim Aydin
On 9/10/2019 3:10 AM, Timon Walshe-Grey wrote: > Perhaps it's time to deliberately tinkering some of the core rules and see > what happens? For example, I know from archives that proposals tend to > oscillate between "free and accessible to everyone" and "gated behind game > mechanics". When

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Kerim Aydin
On 9/9/2019 3:10 AM, Reuben Staley wrote: > Their recordkeepor is the Treasuror. After the last couple debacles, I'm making a firm policy of voting against any minigame, no matter how good on paper, that where the proposor emself isn't installed into office as the game runner (whether via a

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Timon Walshe-Grey
On Tuesday, September 10, 2019 7:58 AM, Reuben Staley wrote: > I don't know what you want to improve about the core system. The most > change that has been enacted in the past few months to the core system > are minor fixes that clarify things. Sure, we find a broken bit > sometimes, but those

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Reuben Staley
On 9/10/19 1:10 AM, Aris Merchant wrote: No comment on the specific proposal yet, but a general comment. I think we should wait a while before having another mini-game. The last few we've had have died, not because they were bad ideas, but partly because of bugs and most of all because there

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Aris Merchant
On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 12:10 AM Aris Merchant wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 3:07 AM Reuben Staley wrote: > > > > > > > This idea has been stewing for a long time, and this is the rough draft > > of a proposal that

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-10 Thread Aris Merchant
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 3:07 AM Reuben Staley wrote: > > > This idea has been stewing for a long time, and this is the rough draft > of a proposal that captures my initial thoughts somewhat. > > I am putting this out there

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-09 Thread Reuben Staley
On 9/9/19 8:34 PM, Jason Cobb wrote: On 9/9/19 10:27 PM, Reuben Staley wrote: I kind of already see proposals as the fastest way to earn money - I think I've earned more money from proposals than all the other methods (not a rigorous claim). With that in mind, does there need to be any

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-09 Thread Jason Cobb
On 9/9/19 10:27 PM, Reuben Staley wrote: I kind of already see proposals as the fastest way to earn money - I think I've earned more money from proposals than all the other methods (not a rigorous claim). With that in mind, does there need to be any more incentive? Alright, maybe the

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-09 Thread Reuben Staley
On 9/9/19 7:24 PM, Jason Cobb wrote: On 9/9/19 8:24 PM, Reuben Staley wrote: Possible ambiguity: "(Casting a vote [...]) on eir own behalf" vs. ("Casting a vote on (all proposals distributed [...] on eir own behalf)". What does a proposal distributed on one's own behalf even look like?

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-09 Thread Jason Cobb
Sorry, looks like I forgot to say that I like the idea generally - I guess I focused on the minutiae in my previous message. On 9/9/19 8:24 PM, Reuben Staley wrote: Possible ambiguity: "(Casting a vote [...]) on eir own behalf" vs. ("Casting a vote on (all proposals distributed [...] on eir

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-09 Thread Reuben Staley
Thanks for the comments. On 9/9/19 6:45 AM, Jason Cobb wrote: On 9/9/19 6:10 AM, Reuben Staley wrote: Create a new rule with title "Cheques", power 2, and text:   Cheques are entities. Each cheque is associated with an interest   group. Cheques associated with the same interest group

Re: DIS: Proto for a new economics system

2019-09-09 Thread Jason Cobb
Responses inline: On 9/9/19 6:10 AM, Reuben Staley wrote: Title: Cheques and Balances AI: 2 Author: Trigon Create a new rule with title "Interest Groups", power 1, and text:   An interest group is an entity defined as such by this rule. Each   interest group has a goal. The following