Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
forwarded to FRC as a theme suggestion. As I said, they're between rounds. On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 4:24 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, Alex Smith wrote: > > On Fri, 2018-06-29 at 14:09 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > But more to the point maybe this theme would end up as graybeard-only > > > which wasn't my intent (but that was great addition to the previous > > > memoirs Dave!) - I was thinking entries would be as much about judicial > > > procedure as the actual arguments, e.g. "your honor, the next Rule must > > > move to strike the evidence presented in a previous rule" and that > kind > > > of thing. Maybe the theme needs tweaking? > > > > I'd much prefer this to be entirely "in-character" and not refer to the > > fantasy rules themselves. Something as simple as "I move to strike the > > evidence. Here are my reasons:" and leaving someone else to finish the > > sentence would achieve the same thing as your example in a much more > > flavourful way. > > Very good point! > > How about just "Oyez Oyez Oyez!!!" as a theme and let the court case > develop freeform from that? (with special thanks to PSS for eir excellent > judgements this week). > > > > -- "At this point, given the limited available data, certainty about only a very small number of things can be achieved." -- Plato, and others
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, Alex Smith wrote: > On Fri, 2018-06-29 at 14:09 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > But more to the point maybe this theme would end up as graybeard-only > > which wasn't my intent (but that was great addition to the previous > > memoirs Dave!) - I was thinking entries would be as much about judicial > > procedure as the actual arguments, e.g. "your honor, the next Rule must > > move to strike the evidence presented in a previous rule" and that kind > > of thing. Maybe the theme needs tweaking? > > I'd much prefer this to be entirely "in-character" and not refer to the > fantasy rules themselves. Something as simple as "I move to strike the > evidence. Here are my reasons:" and leaving someone else to finish the > sentence would achieve the same thing as your example in a much more > flavourful way. Very good point! How about just "Oyez Oyez Oyez!!!" as a theme and let the court case develop freeform from that? (with special thanks to PSS for eir excellent judgements this week).
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
On Fri, 2018-06-29 at 14:09 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > But more to the point maybe this theme would end up as graybeard-only > which wasn't my intent (but that was great addition to the previous > memoirs Dave!) - I was thinking entries would be as much about judicial > procedure as the actual arguments, e.g. "your honor, the next Rule must > move to strike the evidence presented in a previous rule" and that kind > of thing. Maybe the theme needs tweaking? I'd much prefer this to be entirely "in-character" and not refer to the fantasy rules themselves. Something as simple as "I move to strike the evidence. Here are my reasons:" and leaving someone else to finish the sentence would achieve the same thing as your example in a much more flavourful way. -- ais523
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
Wel maybe. But more to the point maybe this theme would end up as graybeard-only which wasn't my intent (but that was great addition to the previous memoirs Dave!) - I was thinking entries would be as much about judicial procedure as the actual arguments, e.g. "your honor, the next Rule must move to strike the evidence presented in a previous rule" and that kind of thing. Maybe the theme needs tweaking? (anyway, definitely not starting this contest today, so far turnout of birthday greetings is low even compared to recent birthdays, so no harm in making this a "do through July" thing) On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, David Nicol wrote: > what, you're going to argue against "Dave believes there is a consensus" ? > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 3:19 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > I'm *vey* tempted to write the counter-arguments for this but > > that's the whole point of the tournament ;) > > > > -- > "At this point, given the limited available data, certainty about only a > very small number of things can be achieved." -- Plato, and others >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
what, you're going to argue against "Dave believes there is a consensus" ? On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 3:19 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > I'm *vey* tempted to write the counter-arguments for this but > that's the whole point of the tournament ;) > -- "At this point, given the limited available data, certainty about only a very small number of things can be achieved." -- Plato, and others
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
I'm *vey* tempted to write the counter-arguments for this but that's the whole point of the tournament ;) On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, David Nicol wrote: > Well, having been there when it happened, after giving all you kids a > moment to appreciate the grey in my beard, here's what happened: > > (1) FRC began as a discussion within NW towards creating a bounded, > "playable" rule set, and has had a continuous monotonically increasing > round number since then; the biggest change since then in its immutable > rules having been extending the deadlines from one week to two at some > point. > > (2) Due to the maintaner of the NW Mud graduating from Monash and not his > wishing to continue the volunteer service of maintaining a MOO server, NW > shut down and essentially phoenixed into Agora, based on mailing lists > instead > > Therefore, the question of who's got the bragging right to Longest Running > Nomic is clearly either FRC or Agora, and the issue at dispute is if Agora > gets to claim NW's start as its beginning or the transition. I believe > there is a consensus that Agora began with the formation of Agora, with NW > as informing experience, giving FRC the bragging right, although it does > not toot this horn at https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/ . > > One can play FRC without making a full time job out of it: there is no > carryover of mutables from one round to the next, even when, as happened > with the recent Agoran Invasion round, the mutables attempt to > fundamentally redefine time itself. > > > > > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 1:38 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > > > > On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, David Nicol wrote: > > > FRC is, you know, currently between rounds. > > > > > > Regarding the theme of > > > "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE > > > TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". > > > > > > I think there's a "matter of genuine controversy" issue. What difference > > > does this bragging right make? And why can't it be both? Is NW in > > probate? > > > > I was just looking for a theme that would promote CFJ-like legal arguments > > as moves. But it's just from a conversation that came up in Agora > > discussion > > last month, plus the fact that FRC had a round that "included" other nomics > > recently. To paraphrase our discussion: > > > > "Hey, the Agora 25th anniversary is coming up!" > > > > "I wonder if Agora is the longest-running nomic in the world?" > > > > Ørjan: "Actually *ahem* FRC started a little earlier". > > > > Then we looked up the dates and noted that FRC started around Feb-Mar > > 1993 so lasted a little longer, then we had a little friendly discussion > > about whether Agora was somehow "more continuous" with Nomic World in > > spirit. > > > > But I'm totally open to other wordings/ideas that keep the theme > > of Agoran CFJ-like legal quibbling over this sort of philosophical > > fine point. > > > > > > > > -- > "At this point, given the limited available data, certainty about only a > very small number of things can be achieved." -- Plato, and others >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
Well, having been there when it happened, after giving all you kids a moment to appreciate the grey in my beard, here's what happened: (1) FRC began as a discussion within NW towards creating a bounded, "playable" rule set, and has had a continuous monotonically increasing round number since then; the biggest change since then in its immutable rules having been extending the deadlines from one week to two at some point. (2) Due to the maintaner of the NW Mud graduating from Monash and not his wishing to continue the volunteer service of maintaining a MOO server, NW shut down and essentially phoenixed into Agora, based on mailing lists instead Therefore, the question of who's got the bragging right to Longest Running Nomic is clearly either FRC or Agora, and the issue at dispute is if Agora gets to claim NW's start as its beginning or the transition. I believe there is a consensus that Agora began with the formation of Agora, with NW as informing experience, giving FRC the bragging right, although it does not toot this horn at https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/ . One can play FRC without making a full time job out of it: there is no carryover of mutables from one round to the next, even when, as happened with the recent Agoran Invasion round, the mutables attempt to fundamentally redefine time itself. On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 1:38 PM Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, David Nicol wrote: > > FRC is, you know, currently between rounds. > > > > Regarding the theme of > > "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE > > TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". > > > > I think there's a "matter of genuine controversy" issue. What difference > > does this bragging right make? And why can't it be both? Is NW in > probate? > > I was just looking for a theme that would promote CFJ-like legal arguments > as moves. But it's just from a conversation that came up in Agora > discussion > last month, plus the fact that FRC had a round that "included" other nomics > recently. To paraphrase our discussion: > > "Hey, the Agora 25th anniversary is coming up!" > > "I wonder if Agora is the longest-running nomic in the world?" > > Ørjan: "Actually *ahem* FRC started a little earlier". > > Then we looked up the dates and noted that FRC started around Feb-Mar > 1993 so lasted a little longer, then we had a little friendly discussion > about whether Agora was somehow "more continuous" with Nomic World in > spirit. > > But I'm totally open to other wordings/ideas that keep the theme > of Agoran CFJ-like legal quibbling over this sort of philosophical > fine point. > > > -- "At this point, given the limited available data, certainty about only a very small number of things can be achieved." -- Plato, and others
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, David Nicol wrote: > FRC is, you know, currently between rounds. > > Regarding the theme of > "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE > TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". > > I think there's a "matter of genuine controversy" issue. What difference > does this bragging right make? And why can't it be both? Is NW in probate? I was just looking for a theme that would promote CFJ-like legal arguments as moves. But it's just from a conversation that came up in Agora discussion last month, plus the fact that FRC had a round that "included" other nomics recently. To paraphrase our discussion: "Hey, the Agora 25th anniversary is coming up!" "I wonder if Agora is the longest-running nomic in the world?" Ørjan: "Actually *ahem* FRC started a little earlier". Then we looked up the dates and noted that FRC started around Feb-Mar 1993 so lasted a little longer, then we had a little friendly discussion about whether Agora was somehow "more continuous" with Nomic World in spirit. But I'm totally open to other wordings/ideas that keep the theme of Agoran CFJ-like legal quibbling over this sort of philosophical fine point.
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
Excuse me if I'm wrong because Agora is older than I am, but to me it seems that the whole "Agora vs. FRC" debate is more of an in-joke between the two groups than an actual serious debate. Saying that one is more worthy than another is an impossible task since both of them are different in important ways, and doing so is usually meant as a humorous jab at the history of the games. Again, this is all based on personal experience from a player of less than one year, but still. On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 12:27 David Nicol wrote: > FRC is, you know, currently between rounds. > > Regarding the theme of > "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE > TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". > > I think there's a "matter of genuine controversy" issue. What difference > does this bragging right make? And why can't it be both? Is NW in probate? >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
FRC is, you know, currently between rounds. Regarding the theme of "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". I think there's a "matter of genuine controversy" issue. What difference does this bragging right make? And why can't it be both? Is NW in probate?
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
On Fri, 29 Jun 2018, Aris Merchant wrote: > I'd tend to give yourself a bit more discussion to render things invalid, > such as if they're off theme or too hard but not impossible. My main edits are to slow down the pace a bit and allow for discussion and a little more flexibility in exactly this :). > Also, keep in > mind that you're not going to be able to do this until the new contracts > pass. Oh, and I'd appreciate a pledge not to maliciously amend or > deliberately break it, as the new system would allow you to do. It's not > that I don't trust you, just the principle. I've decided that it doesn't need a contract. A tournament set of regulations can retroactively validate contest actions taken in the mean time (and either way, to start playing today you'd have to trust that a tournament would be created in a few days to award the win). Or do you see a way your deregulation proposal would mess up a tournament, too? :P Of course, at this point, I don't think we'll massively "mess up the birthday" if the whole thing starts late, I'm not sure we're going to get a whole lot of attention today or more activity for rushing the start (still time for me to be wrong about that!)
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
I'd tend to give yourself a bit more discussion to render things invalid, such as if they're off theme or too hard but not impossible. Also, keep in mind that you're not going to be able to do this until the new contracts pass. Oh, and I'd appreciate a pledge not to maliciously amend or deliberately break it, as the new system would allow you to do. It's not that I don't trust you, just the principle. -Aris On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 1:31 PM Reuben Staley wrote: > I'll join it if you decide to go through with it. > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 11:16 Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > > > > So there were no comments on this is there interest? I have a few > > minor edits but otherwise it can be started - but depends on whether > > people want to play it. > > > > On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > [ > > > Ok, running out of time. This is a quick job. Please look and > > > consider! > > > reference: > > > https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/regular-ordinances-of-the-frc > > > ] > > > > > > FANTASY RULES CONTRACT PROTO. > > > > > > 0. G. is the only member of this contract. G. CANNOT win the Contest > > > or become a Contestant. G. is the Judge (gamemaster) of this game. > > > > > > 1. The CONTEST begins June 30, 2018, 00:00:00 GMT +1200. > > > > > > 2. For 48 hours after the contest begins, any person can enter the > > > contest (becoming a Contestant) by publishing a body of text > > > clearly intended to be a Fantasy Rule, on behalf of themselves > > > (no zombies or other act-on-behalf play). Entering the contest > > > is NOT becoming a party to this contract. When a contestant is > > > eliminated (ceases being a contestant), e cannot re-enter. > > > > > > 3. After 48 hours have passed since the contest began, no new > > > Contestants can join. > > > > > > 4. Only Contestants can publish valid fantasy rules. > > > > > > 5. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be consistent with all > > > previous valid fantasy Rules. > > > > > > 6. When a contestant publishes an invalid fantasy rule, e receives > > > a Strike. When e received 3 strikes, e is eliminated. > > > > > > 7. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be possible for any > > > remaining contestant to publish a valid rule following it. > > > A contestant can publicly challenge that a particular rule > > > makes it impossible to continue. In that case, the publisher > > > of that rule has 24 hours to send the judge (privately or > > > publicly) a proposed valid rule that would work. If e does > > > so, the challenger receives a strike, otherwise the rule is > > > invalid. > > > > > > 8. After the first 72 hours, the elimination period begins. During > > > this period, a contestant is eliminated if 24 hours have passed > > > since e last published a valid rule AND 12 hours have passed > > > since any contestant last published a valid rule. > > > > > > 9. The judge shall declare whether each fantasy rule is valid or > > > invalid, and will award between -3 and +3 Style Points to each > > > valid rule, by announcement, based on the quality of the rule > > > with respect to the theme. > > > > > > 10. The judge's final opinions are binding, although contestants > > > may publicly or privately appeal (to the judge) any judicial > > > ruling they feel was made in error, and the judge may revise > > > eir judgement at any time. > > > > > > 11. When all contestants have been eliminated from the contest, the > > > winners are (1) the last contestant eliminated and (2) the > > > person with the most style points after all contestants have > > > been eliminated. > > > > > > 12. The judge is the final arbitor of matters of this contract, and > > > eir decisions can only be overturned if a CFJ finds eir decisions > > > were made with arbitrary or capricious disregard for the terms of > > > this contract. The judge shall adjudicate this contract in equitable > > > terms, with emphasis placed on the intent of the clauses. > > > > > > 13. The judge CAN terminate this contract with Notice after August 1, > > > 2018. > > > > > > 14. The theme of the Contest is "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US > > > TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
It's not really my kind of thing but I'll certainly join in if it happens. I can't see any loopholes. -twg ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ On June 29, 2018 5:15 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > So there were no comments on this is there interest? I have a few > > minor edits but otherwise it can be started - but depends on whether > > people want to play it. > > On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > [ > > > > Ok, running out of time. This is a quick job. Please look and > > > > consider! > > > > reference: > > https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/regular-ordinances-of-the-frc > > > > ] > > > > FANTASY RULES CONTRACT PROTO. > > > > 0. G. is the only member of this contract. G. CANNOT win the Contest > > > > or become a Contestant. G. is the Judge (gamemaster) of this game. > > > > 1. The CONTEST begins June 30, 2018, 00:00:00 GMT +1200. > > > > 2. For 48 hours after the contest begins, any person can enter the > > > > contest (becoming a Contestant) by publishing a body of text > > > > clearly intended to be a Fantasy Rule, on behalf of themselves > > > > (no zombies or other act-on-behalf play). Entering the contest > > > > is NOT becoming a party to this contract. When a contestant is > > > > eliminated (ceases being a contestant), e cannot re-enter. > > > > 3. After 48 hours have passed since the contest began, no new > > > > Contestants can join. > > > > 4. Only Contestants can publish valid fantasy rules. > > > > 5. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be consistent with all > > > > previous valid fantasy Rules. > > > > 6. When a contestant publishes an invalid fantasy rule, e receives > > > > a Strike. When e received 3 strikes, e is eliminated. > > > > 7. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be possible for any > > > > remaining contestant to publish a valid rule following it. > > > > A contestant can publicly challenge that a particular rule > > > > makes it impossible to continue. In that case, the publisher > > > > of that rule has 24 hours to send the judge (privately or > > > > publicly) a proposed valid rule that would work. If e does > > > > so, the challenger receives a strike, otherwise the rule is > > > > invalid. > > > > 8. After the first 72 hours, the elimination period begins. During > > > > this period, a contestant is eliminated if 24 hours have passed > > > > since e last published a valid rule AND 12 hours have passed > > > > since any contestant last published a valid rule. > > > > 9. The judge shall declare whether each fantasy rule is valid or > > > > invalid, and will award between -3 and +3 Style Points to each > > > > valid rule, by announcement, based on the quality of the rule > > > > with respect to the theme. > > > > 10. The judge's final opinions are binding, although contestants > > > > may publicly or privately appeal (to the judge) any judicial > > > > ruling they feel was made in error, and the judge may revise > > > > eir judgement at any time. > > > > 11. When all contestants have been eliminated from the contest, the > > > > winners are (1) the last contestant eliminated and (2) the > > > > person with the most style points after all contestants have > > > > been eliminated. > > > > 12. The judge is the final arbitor of matters of this contract, and > > > > eir decisions can only be overturned if a CFJ finds eir decisions > > > > were made with arbitrary or capricious disregard for the terms of > > > > this contract. The judge shall adjudicate this contract in equitable > > > > terms, with emphasis placed on the intent of the clauses. > > > > 13. The judge CAN terminate this contract with Notice after August 1, > > > > 14. > > 15. The theme of the Contest is "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US > > > > TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". > >
Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Fantasy Rules Contract Proto
I'll join it if you decide to go through with it. On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 11:16 Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > So there were no comments on this is there interest? I have a few > minor edits but otherwise it can be started - but depends on whether > people want to play it. > > On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > [ > > Ok, running out of time. This is a quick job. Please look and > > consider! > > reference: > https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/regular-ordinances-of-the-frc > > ] > > > > FANTASY RULES CONTRACT PROTO. > > > > 0. G. is the only member of this contract. G. CANNOT win the Contest > > or become a Contestant. G. is the Judge (gamemaster) of this game. > > > > 1. The CONTEST begins June 30, 2018, 00:00:00 GMT +1200. > > > > 2. For 48 hours after the contest begins, any person can enter the > > contest (becoming a Contestant) by publishing a body of text > > clearly intended to be a Fantasy Rule, on behalf of themselves > > (no zombies or other act-on-behalf play). Entering the contest > > is NOT becoming a party to this contract. When a contestant is > > eliminated (ceases being a contestant), e cannot re-enter. > > > > 3. After 48 hours have passed since the contest began, no new > > Contestants can join. > > > > 4. Only Contestants can publish valid fantasy rules. > > > > 5. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be consistent with all > > previous valid fantasy Rules. > > > > 6. When a contestant publishes an invalid fantasy rule, e receives > > a Strike. When e received 3 strikes, e is eliminated. > > > > 7. For a fantasy rule to be valid, it must be possible for any > > remaining contestant to publish a valid rule following it. > > A contestant can publicly challenge that a particular rule > > makes it impossible to continue. In that case, the publisher > > of that rule has 24 hours to send the judge (privately or > > publicly) a proposed valid rule that would work. If e does > > so, the challenger receives a strike, otherwise the rule is > > invalid. > > > > 8. After the first 72 hours, the elimination period begins. During > > this period, a contestant is eliminated if 24 hours have passed > > since e last published a valid rule AND 12 hours have passed > > since any contestant last published a valid rule. > > > > 9. The judge shall declare whether each fantasy rule is valid or > > invalid, and will award between -3 and +3 Style Points to each > > valid rule, by announcement, based on the quality of the rule > > with respect to the theme. > > > > 10. The judge's final opinions are binding, although contestants > > may publicly or privately appeal (to the judge) any judicial > > ruling they feel was made in error, and the judge may revise > > eir judgement at any time. > > > > 11. When all contestants have been eliminated from the contest, the > > winners are (1) the last contestant eliminated and (2) the > > person with the most style points after all contestants have > > been eliminated. > > > > 12. The judge is the final arbitor of matters of this contract, and > > eir decisions can only be overturned if a CFJ finds eir decisions > > were made with arbitrary or capricious disregard for the terms of > > this contract. The judge shall adjudicate this contract in equitable > > terms, with emphasis placed on the intent of the clauses. > > > > 13. The judge CAN terminate this contract with Notice after August 1, > > 2018. > > > > 14. The theme of the Contest is "OYEZ, OYEZ! THE DISPUTE BEFORE US > > TODAY IS WHETHER FRC OR AGORA IS THE TRUE INHERITOR OF NOMIC WORLD". > > > > > > > > > >
