Re: Apple-Crop: Re: Time article

2007-03-11 Thread Dave Rosenberger
	Several months ago I was asked to discuss organic options for 
apple disease control at one of our NY State fruit grower meetings. 
I had some hesitations about making the presentation despite the fact 
that organic disease control for apples is relatively easy to 
summarize.  For apples, we still have no effective organically 
acceptable substitutes for sulfur, liquid lime-sulfur, and copper. 
(One might argue that disease-resistant cultivars are a viable 
option, but most growers still have difficulty marketing them.) 
Effective programs for using sulfur, liquid lime-sulfur, and copper 
were outlined in the 1930's and 1940's.  Thus, it was not too 
difficult to dig out that historical material, update it with a few 
more recent studies, and then add the modern glitz by putting it 
into a Power Point presentation.
	My main hesitation about making the requested presentation 
was that organic farming is not (and never has been) based in 
science.  Rather, depending on which proponents are involved in the 
discussion, it is either a personal philosophy, a marketing scheme, 
or both.  I was concerning that asking a skeptical scientist to 
address organic farming might be somewhat similar to asking high 
school science teachers to provide theological explanations for the 
origins of man.
	I agreed make the requested presentation despite my 
hesitations,   But in the interests of full disclosure,  I decided 
that I should provide the audience with my own perspective on organic 
farming at the outset of the presentation.  I devised the following 
statement to summarize my perspectives:


As currently defined, organic farming is a mystical mixture of 
1930's technology and new age religion designed to quell the fears of 
the gullible wealthy in their fruitless search for a risk-free life.


Given that definition, it is not surprising that our public media (a 
subset of the gullible wealthy) constantly promotes organic while 
fastidiously avoiding any mention of the fact that organic farmers 
also use pesticides.  I agree that the tide may be shifting from buy 
organic to buy local, but the false promises of organic will 
continue to attract a sizeable contingent for a long time to come. 
The more thoughtful segments of society are likely to make the 
transition to sustainable farming, and that will certainly allow for 
increased emphasis on local production.
	Some farmers (especially producers of annual crops) can still 
make a good living producing and selling organic produce.  I don't 
have any problem with that, especially since our whole economic 
structure is based on meeting consumer demand.  Furthermore, I 
believe that scientists often can help to improve production systems 
within any given set of constraints, no matter how nonsensical those 
constraints may be.  Thus, scientists will continue to assist in 
improving organic agriculture so long as there is a demand for that 
production system.
	The problem arises when scientists themselves begin to 
formulate the artificial constraints and promote their value, thereby 
abandoning their commitment to objectivity and descending to the 
level of hucksters.  Thus, I'm perfectly willing to provide advice on 
how one might grow organic apples.  Just don't ask me to believe in 
them!

--
** 
Dave Rosenberger

Professor of Plant PathologyOffice:  845-691-7231
Cornell University's Hudson Valley Lab  Fax:845-691-2719
P.O. Box 727, Highland, NY 12528Cell: 845-594-3060
http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/pp/faculty/rosenberger/


RE: Apple-Crop: Time article

2007-03-11 Thread Kurt Alstede
Fellow Growers,

I think that Steve's conclusion about the gullibility of consumers is a
little misdirected.  I have found that what consumers (people) really value
and desire in America is personal relationships.  Certification may well
serve and be necessary for the 900 mile local model as well as the box
stores but I believe that it has been born out of the realization of these
retailers that they must somehow compete with the consumer desire to have a
personal relationship with a person that they trust.  I view the situation
as being similar to having a physician.  One generally chooses a personal
physician not based on the fact that they have a PhD from a prestigious
university and scored well on their finals, but rather on the recommendation
and endorsements from others who have established trusting personal
relationships with that physician.  Defining consumer trust may be mostly
subjective, but it is very real.  To a retailer, it manifests the bottom
line.  I feel much more confident building our retail farm business on our
ability to create, build, and maintain personal relationships with the
consumers that we serve (and we do this successfully with 10 of thousands of
customers) as opposed to trusting our future business growth to a
bureaucratic regulatory certification program.  Indeed, as growers we must
always endeavor to do our job correctly in order to produce safe and
nutritious food, but it is the personal relationship that people really want
and desire.  And it is this reality, I believe, that will solidify and grow
the retail farm market consumer spending share that is being aggressively
sought after by the box stores and supermarkets.


Kurt W. Alstede
General Manager
Alstede Farms, LLC
P. O. Box 278
Chester, New Jersey 07930
United States of America

Tel.  908-879-7189




-Original Message-
From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Steve Demuth
Sent: Sunday, March 11, 2007 2:34 PM
To: Apple-Crop
Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Time article

People often do trust things they are familiar with.  Unfortunately, 
they do this without much analysis of whether this is wise.  That 
people trust locally grown and marketed produce says nothing 
whatsoever about the nutritional, economic or ecological bona fides 
of such product.  That can only be done by well enforced 
certification programs.  And that, whatever the faults of organic 
certification (and there are certainly many), is the real benefit of 
the organic label.

So, while I am a great proponent for consuming locally grown produce, 
I think that Kurt's endorsement below points out mostly the 
gullibility of consumers, not anything virtuous about local 
production.  Even the petroleum miles benefit claimed in the Time 
piece is not necessarily as obvious as it seems.  If one hauls 
30,000lbs of apples cross country (say, 3,000 miles) in a 
semi-trailer, that can easily burn 600 gallons of fuel.  But, suppose 
2000 consumers drive out to their local U-pick an average distance of 
10 miles round trip to get an average of 15 lbs of apples 
each.  That's thte same 30,000lbs of product.  Want to bet which uses 
more petroleum?  In fact, the consumers would have to average 33+ 
miles/gallon to beat the truckload - highly unlikely with today's 
cars.  And if the local producer is delivering to local markets, 
rather than running a U-pick?  The economics probably favor the local 
produce in this case, assuming an efficient and truly local route, 
but the margin will whither rapidly if they are delivering partial 
loads with 200+ mile round trips.

And, as for the certainty a consumer may feel that a local grower 
from whom they buy personally will be attentive to safe use of 
pesticides and sound land use - a clean farm storefront, firm 
handshake and welcome smile no more assure this than good manners 
make used car salesmen honest.  Most local growers do pay attention 
to these things, of course, but then so do most organic growers 
(particularly as they need to worry about inspections to assure that 
they do).  Again, the advantage to the consumer of the local grower 
is more about perception than reality.

My favorite analogy in this department is airplane travel.  I don't 
really care whether I know personally the mechanic who services the 
next AirBus or Boeing that I get on.  I do care that there are 
certification programs for the mechanic, the airframe, the pilot, and 
basically everything else to do with my flight.  So too with 
food.  Again, organic has gone directions that I sincerely disagree 
with, but I think the notion of certification is at it's core, a lot 
more valuable to society than a farmer you know and trust.



At 08:42 AM 3/11/2007, you wrote:
Hello Jon,

You are right on as was the Time Article.  In the final analysis, people
trust the face and the person that they can see and touch...their local
farmer.  We have seen this to be the case in all of our direct marketing
and
have 

Re: Apple-Crop: Time article

2007-03-11 Thread KBORCHARDS
As a grower in the southeast I have worked with Dr. Sutton and Dr  Walgenbach 
for 3 years on a small (4 acre) trial in growing organic. 
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