Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same)
Good comments Con. I think that true sustainability will be more akin to IPM than to the set of rules developed for organic. It will probably involve the use of pesticides that are not organically approved, particularly some of the new generation materials. It will probably involve genetic engineering, but with more careful oversight. It will, by necessity, involve careful accountancy. If a grower cannot make a profit, he cannot be sustainable. But most importantly, as you imply, it will need to involve a energy budget. The world really only has one energy source. We have lots of stored energy (e.g. petroleum) we are wasting as fast as we can profit from it. But it is limited. Once we regain our senses and begin to account for energy useage as the fundamental component of sustainability, we will begin to have a better sense of how we can develop sustainable systems, which by definition will be economic models. Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html Hello again Chris and all contributors, I hope that I did not come across as too negative about the potential of scab (or other pest or disease) resistant varieties. What I hoped to get across is that nature is not static, and that it is virtually inevitable that resistance will be broken down by the pathogen, sooner or later. As was outlined by Jean-Marc, this has already been documented for Vf scab resistance. So resistance is not a solution in itself, and once it is broken down, it is too late, so it needs to be preserved by thoughtful orchard practice. I think the reality is that we need to consider using whatever we can to control pests and diseases. That may include forecasting models, sanitation, trapping systems, resistance, chemical control, and all the other mechanisms that many growers are already familiar with, and I am sure, some that have not been thought of yet. I agree with Chris about the potential benefit of fire-blight resistance; it would be revolutionary. However, if that resistance is to come via genetic modification, then we need to be very careful to assess if there will be any potential negative consequences, and if there are, to make sure that the cure is not worse than the disease. Con PS. Just to get back to the sustainability question. If a kg of apples gives the consumer 2300 kJ of energy, then it is no longer sustainable to eat these apples if it takes more than 2300kJ to produce the apples. If the apples are grown in your back yard, then clearly it does not take as much energy to go out and pick and eat one as the energy you will get from it. If you had to walk 1000 miles to get it, then you would probably starve on the way, so this is not a good proposition. If a truck has to drive 1000 miles to get them, the situation becomes less clear, especially when you consider the energy that had to be put into growing the fruits, spraying them, picking them, and so forth. By rough calculation, if an apple has to travel more than 3000 road miles in a fully-laden truck to get to market, it is costing more energy to make its journey, than the final consumer is getting by eating it. -Original Message- From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 March 2007 16:05 To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same) Bill: Do you have a spray program controlling scab on other varieties? And my addition to many previous comments of recent weeks. Reistance to apple scab offers considerable help to growers that can market those varieties. Consider the potential benefit(s) of fire blight resistance in apple and pear, whether it is natural of GMO. Chris Doll -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 8:57 AM Subject: Re: Apple-Crop: Time article (More on same) Gary I'm not aware of apple scab resistance having developed against Vf the Vf gene, specifically the PRI varieties. I have had Pristine, Enterprise, Dayton, Liberty, Redfree and Goldrush planted here for 10 years and they are very clean. Perhaps others can correct me. Bill Shoemaker, Sr Research Specialist, Food Crops University of Illinois - St Charles Horticulture Research Center www.nres.uiuc.edu/faculty/directory/shoemaker_wh.html There have been several postings about Vf resistant scab being a possibility since most resistant varieties share this gene. However, these varieties have been around for quite a while now--is there any information about resistance showing up anywhere? Is there something different about Vf resistance that would save it from what happened to Baldwin or Bramley?
Re: Apple-Crop: Pollinating bees
The CCD (Colony Collapse Disorder ) working group recently published a report of their finding entitled 'Fall Dwindle Disease: A preliminary report December 15, 2006'. It can be found at: http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/pressReleases/FallDwindleUpdate0107.pdf Although the group is looking into the sub-lethal effects of insecticide and insecticide / fungicide interactions through pesticide residue analysis, they have found at least some indication that viral and or fungal presence may be at least in part associated with the collapse. Peter Has there been any comment among apple growers in the US on the continuing sharp decline in bee numbers? I read the following recently, and believe that a few parts of Europe are beginning to see localised colony collapses also. Since last November, the US has seen a decline in bee populations so dramatic that it eclipses all previous incidences of mass mortality. Beekeepers on the east coast of the United States complain that they have lost more than 70 percent of their stock since late last year, while the west coast has seen a decline of up to 60 percent. In an article in its business section in late February, the New York Times calculated the damage US agriculture would suffer if bees died out. Experts at Cornell University in upstate New York have estimated the value bees generate -- by pollinating fruit and vegetable plants, almond trees and animal feed like clover -- at more than $14 billion. Scientists call the mysterious phenomenon Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), and it is fast turning into a national catastrophe of sorts. A number of universities and government agencies have formed a CCD Working Group to search for the causes of the calamity, but have so far come up empty-handed. But, like Dennis vanEngelsdorp, an apiarist with the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture, they are already referring to the problem as a potential AIDS for the bee industry. One thing is certain: Millions of bees have simply vanished. In most cases, all that's left in the hives are the doomed offspring. But dead bees are nowhere to be found -- neither in nor anywhere close to the hives. Diana Cox-Foster, a member of the CCD Working Group, told The Independent that researchers were extremely alarmed, adding that the crisis has the potential to devastate the US beekeeping industry. It is particularly worrisome, she said, that the bees' death is accompanied by a set of symptoms which does not seem to match anything in the literature. In many cases, scientists have found evidence of almost all known bee viruses in the few surviving bees found in the hives after most have disappeared. Some had five or six infections at the same time and were infested with fungi -- a sign, experts say, that the insects' immune system may have collapsed. The scientists are also surprised that bees and other insects usually leave the abandoned hives untouched. Nearby bee populations or parasites would normally raid the honey and pollen stores of colonies that have died for other reasons, such as excessive winter cold. This suggests that there is something toxic in the colony itself which is repelling them, says Cox-Foster. -- Peter J. Jentsch Extension Associate Department of Entomology Cornell University's Hudson Valley Lab 3357 Rt. 9W; PO box 727 Highland, NY 12528 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Phone 845-691-7151 Mobile: 845-417-7465 http://www.nysaes.cornell.edu/ent/faculty/jentsch/
Re: Apple-Crop: Pollinating bees
Con, Do you have the source citation your quoted material? Reading other source material, I wrote of this in our March Northeast Tree Fruit newsletter (March 2007, Vol. 11 No. 2. COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER MAY IMPACT HIVE AVAILABILITY, PRICE) and encouraged regional growers here to check their own hives, or to confer with their pollination contractors ASAP, to asses if there might be an local risk of pollination shortfall. To date, I have had no replies indicating any shortfall or abnormality. Perhaps though, no news is not good news. It would be good to learn if NE NY and New England constituents are aware of any problems? Best regards, Kevin Iungerman Has there been any comment among apple growers in the US on the continuing sharp decline in bee numbers? I read the following recently, and believe that a few parts of Europe are beginning to see localised colony collapses also. Since last November, the US has seen a decline in bee populations so dramatic that it eclipses all previous incidences of mass mortality. Beekeepers on the east coast of the United States complain that they have lost more than 70 percent of their stock since late last year, while the west coast has seen a decline of up to 60 percent. In an article in its business section in late February, the New York Times calculated the damage US agriculture would suffer if bees died out. Experts at Cornell University in upstate New York have estimated the value bees generate -- by pollinating fruit and vegetable plants, almond trees and animal feed like clover -- at more than $14 billion. Scientists call the mysterious phenomenon Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), and it is fast turning into a national catastrophe of sorts. A number of universities and government agencies have formed a CCD Working Group to search for the causes of the calamity, but have so far come up empty-handed. But, like Dennis vanEngelsdorp, an apiarist with the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture, they are already referring to the problem as a potential AIDS for the bee industry. One thing is certain: Millions of bees have simply vanished. In most cases, all that's left in the hives are the doomed offspring. But dead bees are nowhere to be found -- neither in nor anywhere close to the hives. Diana Cox-Foster, a member of the CCD Working Group, told The Independent that researchers were extremely alarmed, adding that the crisis has the potential to devastate the US beekeeping industry. It is particularly worrisome, she said, that the bees' death is accompanied by a set of symptoms which does not seem to match anything in the literature. In many cases, scientists have found evidence of almost all known bee viruses in the few surviving bees found in the hives after most have disappeared. Some had five or six infections at the same time and were infested with fungi -- a sign, experts say, that the insects' immune system may have collapsed. The scientists are also surprised that bees and other insects usually leave the abandoned hives untouched. Nearby bee populations or parasites would normally raid the honey and pollen stores of colonies that have died for other reasons, such as excessive winter cold. This suggests that there is something toxic in the colony itself which is repelling them, says Cox-Foster. -- Kevin Iungerman, Extension Associate Cornell Northeastern NY Commercial Fruit Program Serving NY's Upper Hudson and Champlain Region (Albany, Saratoga, Washington, Essex and Clinton Counties) Growing McIntosh, Honeycrisp, and other fine apples and fruit! 50 West High Street, Ballston Spa, NY 12020 Phone: (518) 885-8995 FAX: (518) 885-9078 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Apple-Crop: Pollinating bees
This may not be helpful, but recently I came across a new book, The Cure for All Diseases. Quite a claim, right? Well, the author (a Canadian) sets forth the cause of all chronic disease as either pollution or parasites. The cure is to first locate the specific cause by means of its identified specific radio frequency, then to eliminate it by various non-invasive measures such as sanitation, and even counter-radio waves at voltages less than 10. There are a lot more parasites in our bodies than you might imagine, including the liver fluke which is about 3/4 of a inch long and related to all cancers that Clark has encountered. The interesting thing about Clark's thesis is that nothing is to be taken on faith; every point can be duplicated and proven (or disproven) by anyone with a minimal understanding of radio frequencies. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This may not be helpful, but in the human population, when the immune system is overwhelmed by tiny amounts of multiple toxins the body's defenses give up and then we come down with all kinds of ailments...so the death certificate might read death was caused by infection, but the cause was lack of immunity due to all the cumulative toxic insults from all sources in the local environment. We die of something, or many things, but the proximate cause was not so obvious. The best example I can think of is cancer in people. We get cancer because of a failure of the immune system and so we may die of cancer, but the real cause remains a mystery. Simpler still, when we get a headache, we treat with aspirin, and the pain goes away, without our actually getting at the cause of that headache. So, the bee problem is just the end product of what is most likely to be multiple poisons,or toxins that are in the locale where there is bee death. We will likely have to suffer giant economic losses before any of the talking heads on Capitol Hill will fund the appropriate research. Hang on guys. Karl W. Olson, D.M.D. PS they aren't looking in the right places for people diseases either, if that makes you feel better. :( -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net Sent: Thu, 29 Mar 2007 10:28 AM Subject: RE: Apple-Crop: Pollinating bees maybe the chemical sprays are catching up with us and the bees Jim F.NY state -Original Message- From: apple-crop@virtualorchard.net [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Con.Traas Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 8:12 AM To: Apple-Crop Subject: Apple-Crop: Pollinating bees Has there been any comment among apple growers in the US on the continuing sharp decline in bee numbers? I read the following recently, and believe that a few parts of Europe are beginning to see localised colony collapses also. Since last November, the US has seen a decline in bee populations so dramatic that it eclipses all previous incidences of mass mortality. Beekeepers on the east coast of the United States complain that they have lost more than 70 percent of their stock since late last year, while the west coast has seen a decline of up to 60 percent. In an article in its business section in late February, the New York Times calculated the damage US agriculture would suffer if bees died out. Experts at Cornell University in upstate New York have estimated the value bees generate -- by pollinating fruit and vegetable plants, almond trees and animal feed like clover -- at more than $14 billion. Scientists call the mysterious phenomenon Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD), and it is fast turning into a national catastrophe of sorts. A number of universities and government agencies have formed a CCD Working Group to search for the causes of the calamity, but have so far come up empty-handed. But, like Dennis vanEngelsdorp, an apiarist with the Pennsylvania Department of Agriculture, they are already referring to the problem as a potential AIDS for the bee industry. One thing is certain: Millions of bees have simply vanished. In most cases, all that's left in the hives are the doomed offspring. But dead bees are nowhere to be found -- neither in nor anywhere close to the hives. Diana Cox-Foster, a member of the CCD Working Group, told The Independent that researchers were extremely alarmed, adding that the crisis has the potential to devastate the US beekeeping industry. It is particularly worrisome, she said, that the bees' death is accompanied by a set of symptoms which does not seem to match anything in the literature. In many cases, scientists have found evidence of almost all known bee viruses in the few surviving bees found in the hives after most have disappeared. Some had five or six infections at the same time and were infested with fungi -- a sign, experts say, that the insects' immune system may have collapsed. The
RE: Apple-Crop: Pollinating bees
I have been a part of this group almost from the beginning, though only a listener, not a contributor. There is additional and updated information on this disorder on the Maarec site mentioned, and more press than believable has been published about the problem. There is additional information, and a survey at www.beesurvey.com. This has escalated to the point that this morning there was a House hearing on the subject held by the USDA Subcommittee on Horticulture and specialtiy crops, with USDA and University researchers and several commercial beekeepers testifying. This is, indeed, a situation to be aware of if you are in the business of hiring honey bees for pollination in the spring. I suspect that the availabilty of honey bee colonies for pollination this spring will be reduced, and the cost for those available will increase. Moreover, I suspect that pollination contract obligations will change this year. The east coast beekeepers, particularly, have been hard hit with this (though midwest and west coast beekeepers are almost as affected...it has been recorded in over 24 states), primarily by migratory beekeepers who winter down south. However, beekeepers in the north are just now finding out how well their bees overwintered, and the situation will, at the very best, remain bad. It may become worse. There are several suspects in this case...paracitic mites, viruses, migratory stress, a new disease from Europe, a new, as-of-yet unknown pathogen, and pesticides. Pesitcides, especially sublethal amounts of systmeic pesticides from outside the hive that are used on most vegetable and tree fruit crops got a lot of attention this morning at the hearing. Some beekeepers are convinced this is a serious problem for their bees, but others aren't so sure. And researchers haven't been able to tell. In any event, apple growers and beekeepers would do well to discuss pesticide use in apples before and during pollination this year - before bees move into orchards. Beekeepers are worried. Just so you know. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.BeeCulture.com
Apple-Crop: Colony Collapse Disorder
Penn State has a good site about Colony Collapse Disorder. You can hear about it by clicking on: http://podcasts.psu.edu/node/287 You can also read about what is being done and the current status of this disorder at: http://maarec.cas.psu.edu/ColonyCollapseDisorder.html On Mar 29, 2007, at 2:00 PM, Kevin A. Iungerman wrote: Con, Do you have the source citation your quoted material? Reading other source material, I wrote of this in our March Northeast Tree Fruit newsletter (March 2007, Vol. 11 No. 2. COLONY COLLAPSE DISORDER MAY IMPACT HIVE AVAILABILITY, PRICE) and encouraged regional growers here to check their own hives, or to confer with their pollination contractors ASAP, to asses if there might be an local risk of pollination shortfall. To date, I have had no replies indicating any shortfall or abnormality. Perhaps though, no news is not good news. It would be good to learn if NE NY and New England constituents are aware of any problems? Best regards, Kevin Iungerman -- Kevin Iungerman, Extension Associate Cornell Northeastern NY Commercial Fruit Program Serving NY's Upper Hudson and Champlain Region (Albany, Saratoga, Washington, Essex and Clinton Counties) Growing McIntosh, Honeycrisp, and other fine apples and fruit! 50 West High Street, Ballston Spa, NY 12020 Phone: (518) 885-8995 FAX: (518) 885-9078 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dr. Peter W. Shearer Extension Specialist in Tree Fruit Entomology Rutgers University Rutgers Agricultural Research Extension Center 121 Northville Road Bridgeton, NJ 08302-5919 (856) 455-3100 ext. 4110 (856) 455-3133 fax
RE: Apple-Crop: Pollinating bees
There are a few of us small beekeepers who use no treatments on their hives. I have 6. It will be interesting to see if we, as a group, have the same degree of loss as the rest of the industry. One guy in Vermont has around 200 hives. Of course he does not move them around the country. --- Kim Flottum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been a part of this group almost from the beginning, though only a listener, not a contributor. There is additional and updated information on this disorder on the Maarec site mentioned, and more press than believable has been published about the problem. There is additional information, and a survey at www.beesurvey.com. This has escalated to the point that this morning there was a House hearing on the subject held by the USDA Subcommittee on Horticulture and specialtiy crops, with USDA and University researchers and several commercial beekeepers testifying. This is, indeed, a situation to be aware of if you are in the business of hiring honey bees for pollination in the spring. I suspect that the availabilty of honey bee colonies for pollination this spring will be reduced, and the cost for those available will increase. Moreover, I suspect that pollination contract obligations will change this year. The east coast beekeepers, particularly, have been hard hit with this (though midwest and west coast beekeepers are almost as affected...it has been recorded in over 24 states), primarily by migratory beekeepers who winter down south. However, beekeepers in the north are just now finding out how well their bees overwintered, and the situation will, at the very best, remain bad. It may become worse. There are several suspects in this case...paracitic mites, viruses, migratory stress, a new disease from Europe, a new, as-of-yet unknown pathogen, and pesticides. Pesitcides, especially sublethal amounts of systmeic pesticides from outside the hive that are used on most vegetable and tree fruit crops got a lot of attention this morning at the hearing. Some beekeepers are convinced this is a serious problem for their bees, but others aren't so sure. And researchers haven't been able to tell. In any event, apple growers and beekeepers would do well to discuss pesticide use in apples before and during pollination this year - before bees move into orchards. Beekeepers are worried. Just so you know. Kim Flottum Editor, BeeCulture 623 West Liberty Street Medina, Ohio 44256 V - 800.289.7668 Ext 3214 Fax - 330.725.5624 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.BeeCulture.com On another topic, the federal law governing organic foods was recently amended by lobbyists hired by some manufacturers. This will allow synthetic ingredients to be added to organic-labeled foods. If this is important to you, please visit my website, www.RestoreOrganicLaw.org --- The 'Apple-Crop' LISTSERV is sponsored by the Virtual Orchard http://www.virtualorchard.net and managed by Win Cowgill and Jon Clements [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Apple-Crop is not moderated. Therefore, the statements do not represent official opinions and the Virtual Orchard takes no responsibility for the content.
