Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter

2011-04-05 Thread maurice tougas
Thank you Jean and Con,

You have made what on the surface appeared to be an easy transition,
into a most interesting, albeit time consuming, research project.

I assume now that when Jean states that he is not confident with
conversions in comment related to question two, having to do with the
timing of summer hedging, that you meant that you are not confident
with stating that we here in Massachusetts would find that the correct
timing for hedging would be 10 leaves, as opposed to not being
confident of the wisdom of conversion of training systems.

As you have both clearly stated that the single most critical aspect
of this system is determining the proper timing for summer hedging,
then proceeding with caution is advised.

Last summer the IFTA visited several NY orchards who were employing
modified summer hedging. Though they were not attempting to keep as
thin a wall as described, I believe they were performing the hedging
in August as suggested by Con.

Jean, would it be possible to receive the protocol you developed to
test for timing of summer pruning, or is it as simple as shearing at a
series of timings, and then watching for results?

Thanks again for your input.

Maurice

On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:38 AM, Con.Traas con.tr...@ul.ie wrote:


 Hello all,
 Point 5 is in my mind probably the most vital to get right. If this does
 not work the system will not work.

 Quote:

 5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of
 growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days
 become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to
 reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of
 growth to fruiting bud initiation begins.

 5/ yes that's the explanation from Louis Lorette who did a theorization
 of summer pruning in early 20th. In our case I am afraid that we did a
 more empirical work, designing trials to find the best pruning date in
 our conditions. The 10 leaves date, seems to work for France.

 I have been looking at summer pruning for many years, and in our part of
 the World, a 10 leaves point of pruning, or just around June 21st, does
 not work. In fact, for most varieties, early August, perhaps even the
 second week of August, is the appropriate time. The date at which a
 shoot can be headed with reasonable expectation of forming a fruit bud
 on resultant brindle seems to depend on crop load, soil nutrition and
 soil type (which can vary across a field or orchard), water
 availability, apple variety, use of gibberellin inhibitor (like
 prohexadione calcium) and then something like an Indian Summer (an
 unusually warm spell in mid August) can cause re-growth of buds which
 you would expect to set fruit buds, resulting in turn in no shoot tip
 fruit buds.

 What I am attempting to put across is that using mechanical pruning with
 this system is not without difficulty, and what may work well in France
 may not work so well elsewhere.

 A most interesting conversation; many thanks.

 Con Traas
 The Apple Farm
 Cahir
 Ireland



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Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter

2011-04-02 Thread maurice tougas
Jean,

Please comment/correct my impressions of what principles are involved
with the le Mur fruitier system.

1) The tree form result is a wall which is 1 meter thick at the base,
1/2 meter wide at the top.

2) Mechanical pruning consists of a single annual shearing at 6 to
8/10 leaves upon the fruiting shoot. Exception being first year
conversion when a single shearing would additionally take place as
buds break in the spring.

3) That initial spring shearing stimulates numerous points of growth,
which will later be sheared at the 6-10 leaf shearing.

4) The shearing at 6-10 leaves is timed to coincide with a relatively
short period of time before summer solstice.

5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of
growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days
become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to
reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of
growth to fruiting bud initiation begins.

6) With total width of no more than 1 meter, sunlight needs to travel
no more than 1/2 meter to reach trunk (assuming north/south
orientation), and so an adequate amount of sunlight exposure is
maintained though out  the canopy.

7) Depth or severity of pruning is determined by crop load. If crop is
heavy, then more severe, or deeper shearing is employed.

8) Tree planting distance is 80cm by 3 meters.

9) Conversion from axis, tall spindle and super spindle tree forms are possible.

10) Hedging must occur when dry weather is predicted and conditions
for fireblight infection are not high.

11) The year of conversion will result in significant yield reduction.

12) Initial spring shearing year of conversion should be at 40 cm from
the trunk at the base, tapering to 20 cm at the top.

13) Mechanical thinning of blossoms is encouraged by this system.

14) Mechanical thinning should take place at the pink bud stage.

15) Yield increase of 10% as compared to traditional hand pruned trees
is expected.

16) Increase in red color is expected.

17) Decrease in fruit sunburn is expected.

18) Total reduction in labor requirements is expected in the range of 10%.

You are most kind to comment on these impressions. If there are
additional points you believe I should consider, please feel free to
bring them into the discussion.

Thank you again,

Maurice Tougas
Fruit grower
Northborough, MA



On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:29 PM, maurice tougas
appleman.maur...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hello Jean,

 This must be my lucky day.
 Je dois traiter ma femme à dîner ce soir!
 I will soon develop a list of questions for you.
 Thank you so much for your offer.

 Maurice


 2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc jourd...@ctifl.fr

 Hi Maurice

 To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was 
 created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of 
 France), I shall be able to answer all questions.

 The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better 
 access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that 
 time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, 
 then we decided to go on with the orchard.

 Jean Marc Jourdain
 Ctifl
 Centre manager
 Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com
 Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM
 Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
 To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.com


 Croppers,



 Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier?



 I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to 
 Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We 
 saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them 
 in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system 
 I've seen.



 Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this.



 Maurice Tougas

 --
 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844


 --
 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844

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 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844




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Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844
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Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter

2011-04-01 Thread Jourdain Jean-Marc
Hi Maurice
To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was 
created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of 
France), I shall be able to answer all questions.
The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access 
to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. Then 
the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we decided 
to go on with the orchard.
Jean Marc Jourdain
Ctifl
Centre manager
Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr
-- Forwarded message --
From: maurice tougas 
appleman.maur...@gmail.commailto:appleman.maur...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM
Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.commailto:tougasf...@gmail.com


Croppers,

Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier?

I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium 
last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example 
of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The 
above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen.

Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this.

Maurice Tougas


--
Maurice Tougas
Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844tel:508-450-0844



--
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Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844
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Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter

2011-04-01 Thread Jon Clements
Bonjour, I see the publication is available in French at
http://www.amazon.fr/Pommier-mur-fruitier-Collectif/dp/2879111838.
What is the publication date? To what extent has le mur fruitier
been adopted in French commercial production?

Merci beaucoup!

Jon

2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc jourd...@ctifl.fr:
 Hi Maurice

 To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was
 created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of
 France), I shall be able to answer all questions.

 The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better
 access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that
 time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield,
 then we decided to go on with the orchard.

 Jean Marc Jourdain
 Ctifl
 Centre manager
 Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com
 Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM
 Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
 To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.com


 Croppers,



 Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier?



 I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to
 Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We
 saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them
 in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system
 I've seen.



 Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this.



 Maurice Tougas

 --
 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844


 --
 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844

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Jon Clements
cleme...@umext.umass.edu
aka 'Mr Liberty'
aka 'Mr Honeycrisp'
IM mrhoneycrisp
413.478.7219
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Re: [apple-crop] Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter

2011-04-01 Thread maurice tougas
Hello Jean,

This must be my lucky day.
Je dois traiter ma femme à dîner ce soir!
I will soon develop a list of questions for you.
Thank you so much for your offer.

Maurice


2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc jourd...@ctifl.fr

 Hi Maurice

 To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was 
 created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of 
 France), I shall be able to answer all questions.

 The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access 
 to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. 
 Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we 
 decided to go on with the orchard.

 Jean Marc Jourdain
 Ctifl
 Centre manager
 Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr

 -- Forwarded message --
 From: maurice tougas appleman.maur...@gmail.com
 Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM
 Subject: Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter
 To: Andre Tougas tougasf...@gmail.com


 Croppers,



 Does anyone know of a translated version of Pommier, le Mur fruitier?



 I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium 
 last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example 
 of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The 
 above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen.



 Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this.



 Maurice Tougas

 --
 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844


 --
 Maurice Tougas
 Tougas Family Farm
 Northborough,MA 01532
 508-450-0844

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 apple-crop@virtualorchard.net
 http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop




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Tougas Family Farm
Northborough,MA 01532
508-450-0844
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