Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 9:24 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
 wrote:

>  i'm not letting you off the hook here after you said that EOMA68's
> interfaces are "crippled", peter.

ok, so can you see what i did, peter?  you laid down a challenge (to
do better)... and after three days, you've not responded.  you
*provisionally* described an alternative standard... but did not
follow through.

 *that's* what makes the difference, here.  it's *not enough* to say
"the standard you came up with is rubbish", you have to *follow
through*, and if you can't follow through then it's you know what
i'm trying to say?

 what you *should* have said, is:

 "i appreciate all the hard work and persistence that you've shown,
luke, and how comprehensively you've worked on designing EOMA68,
making tough decisions and comprehensive evaluations that, each time
you removed an interface you had to throw away thousands of dollars of
money and you also made sure that you kept everybody informed,
solicited people for ideas and reviews of each decision, and i *do*
recall you saying that this is just the first standard in the series
and that you're deliberately creating one which is 'within reach' of a
libre engineer *and* uses SoCs that are actually accessible rather
than being cartelled or require NDAs and much more, BUT"

 ... and *then* went into "i still feel that the EOMA68 interfaces are
crippled", i would have gone, "yeahh, i know... tell you what: i would
really like to design the next standard for a future Card, how about
we start that now?"

... which would have been a _much_ less confrontational way to
introduce the topic you wanted, wouldn't it?

ehn?

*rueful*

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sun, Jan 8, 2017 at 3:07 AM, ryan  wrote:
> I'd like to point out that Ars Technica, Gizmodo and Tech Republic also
> reported on Intel's Compute Card with no mention of other similar
> projects...
>
> http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/01/intels-compute-card-is-a-pc-that-can-fit-in-your-wallet/
>
> http://www.techrepublic.com/article/ces-2017-how-the-tiny-intel-compute-card-could-revolutionize-iot-device-management/
>
> http://gizmodo.com/intels-incredibly-tiny-compute-card-could-soon-run-your-1790826525
>
>
> I was originally going to suggest that maybe Intel independently came up
> with the same idea, but then I saw just how eerily-similar the promotional
> images and pitches were to EOMA68 and now I can tell its clearly copying
> us...

 jaezuss, you could even say that they'd been reading the crowdsupply
page and the whitepaper i wrote, and literally copying some of it.
the gizmodo article in particular, they're "excited that you can take
your computer home with you instead of a 2lb device".

 *sigh*... :)


>
>
> On 01/07/2017 04:12 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>>
>> just got this from a friend:
>>
>> -
>>
>> I sent a 'correction' to the BBC about it. Probably wouldn't hurt if
>> other people pointed out that Intel is not the first to market with
>> modular computing and that a crowd funded 'open source' project beat
>> them to it. EOMA68 already  exists and the very first prototype
>> devices have been produced for desktop and laptop housings. Unlike
>> Intel's solution this one is completely open for anybody to adopt. The
>> video got it wrong in saying it won't be seen in desktops/laptops any
>> time soon given that they very first housing prototypes were a laptop
>> and desktop.
>>
>> You can report errors here:
>>
>> http://www.bbc.com/news/contact-us/editorial
>>
>>
>> ---
>> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 6:36 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> ---
>>> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 5:40 AM, Allan Mwenda 
>>> wrote:

 Pretty hilarious how much of a direct clone that Intel card is.
 Imitation is
 the sincerest flattery I guess?
>>>
>>>   in a word... yeah :)
>>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[ryan]

I'd like to point out that Ars Technica, Gizmodo and Tech Republic also 
reported on Intel's Compute Card with no mention of other similar 
projects...


http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/01/intels-compute-card-is-a-pc-that-can-fit-in-your-wallet/

http://www.techrepublic.com/article/ces-2017-how-the-tiny-intel-compute-card-could-revolutionize-iot-device-management/

http://gizmodo.com/intels-incredibly-tiny-compute-card-could-soon-run-your-1790826525


I was originally going to suggest that maybe Intel independently came up 
with the same idea, but then I saw just how eerily-similar the 
promotional images and pitches were to EOMA68 and now I can tell its 
clearly copying us...



On 01/07/2017 04:12 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

just got this from a friend:

-

I sent a 'correction' to the BBC about it. Probably wouldn't hurt if
other people pointed out that Intel is not the first to market with
modular computing and that a crowd funded 'open source' project beat
them to it. EOMA68 already  exists and the very first prototype
devices have been produced for desktop and laptop housings. Unlike
Intel's solution this one is completely open for anybody to adopt. The
video got it wrong in saying it won't be seen in desktops/laptops any
time soon given that they very first housing prototypes were a laptop
and desktop.

You can report errors here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/contact-us/editorial


---
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On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 6:36 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
 wrote:

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 5:40 AM, Allan Mwenda  wrote:

Pretty hilarious how much of a direct clone that Intel card is. Imitation is
the sincerest flattery I guess?

  in a word... yeah :)

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[raphael . melotte]

>You can report errors here:
>
>http://www.bbc.com/news/contact-us/editorial

Good idea ! Done for me too.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Alain Williams]

On Sat, Jan 07, 2017 at 10:12:05AM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

> http://www.bbc.com/news/contact-us/editorial

Done.

I won't CC what I wrote - far better if everyone writes something different.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

just got this from a friend:

-

I sent a 'correction' to the BBC about it. Probably wouldn't hurt if
other people pointed out that Intel is not the first to market with
modular computing and that a crowd funded 'open source' project beat
them to it. EOMA68 already  exists and the very first prototype
devices have been produced for desktop and laptop housings. Unlike
Intel's solution this one is completely open for anybody to adopt. The
video got it wrong in saying it won't be seen in desktops/laptops any
time soon given that they very first housing prototypes were a laptop
and desktop.

You can report errors here:

http://www.bbc.com/news/contact-us/editorial


---
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On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 6:36 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
 wrote:
> ---
> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 5:40 AM, Allan Mwenda  wrote:
>> Pretty hilarious how much of a direct clone that Intel card is. Imitation is
>> the sincerest flattery I guess?
>
>  in a word... yeah :)

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
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On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Jonathan Frederickson
 wrote:
>>  that's Trademark infringment, which is completely different.
>> CERTIFICATION mark infringment is based on STANDARDS.  a Trademark is
>> based on a PRODUCT or a brand..
>
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of certification marks
> is that, while they're related to the standards published by a given
> entity, the actual certification mark is the mark on the casing of the
> device (or on the box, or on a sticker...), and *not* the whole set of
> standards that must be met in order to qualify for that mark.

  i believe they go hand-in-hand.  i just remembered the instance
of HDMI: if you want to put "HDMI" on the outside of a box, you have
to go to an accredited certifier (AGC Cert for example whom i just
visited a couple months back), pass some very specific tests, and
*then* you can put "HDMI" on the outside.

 those tests will be to ensure compliance with the HDMI standard.

 ok *sigh* so intel get away with it... as long as they don't put
"EOMA68" on the outside of the cases.

arse.  that's gonna be a damn nuisance.

> Furthermore, at least in the US it appears that the owner of a
> certification mark is not permitted to use it themselves:

yeah yeah, you like that?  pretty funny, huh?   so i can make these
devices for people but i have to tell them "go put your own stickers
on them, and pay $5k to a Certification Company to have the tests
done".

 also, ironically, how the hell am i supposed to bootstrap the initial
eco-system??

  dh... i don't think the people who created the Certification
Mark system thought of that one...

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
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On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 5:40 AM, Allan Mwenda  wrote:
> Pretty hilarious how much of a direct clone that Intel card is. Imitation is
> the sincerest flattery I guess?

 in a word... yeah :)

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Allan Mwenda]

Pretty hilarious how much of a direct clone that Intel card is. Imitation is 
the sincerest flattery I guess? 

On January 6, 2017 12:07:04 PM GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton 
 wrote:
>On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Alain Williams 
>wrote:
>
>> Flag up interesting posts, I won't continue to look at that page.
>
>
>https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10083875=53615691
>
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Jonathan Frederickson]

>  that's Trademark infringment, which is completely different.
> CERTIFICATION mark infringment is based on STANDARDS.  a Trademark is
> based on a PRODUCT or a brand..

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of certification marks
is that, while they're related to the standards published by a given
entity, the actual certification mark is the mark on the casing of the
device (or on the box, or on a sticker...), and *not* the whole set of
standards that must be met in order to qualify for that mark.

Furthermore, at least in the US it appears that the owner of a
certification mark is not permitted to use it themselves:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/certification_mark

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
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On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 1:32 PM, Jonathan Frederickson
 wrote:
>> if you check 30 seconds in the connector is completely different (otherwise 
>> intel would have a Certification Mark infringment case on their hands)
>
> Wait, how?

 *CERTIFICATION* mark.  *NOT* **TRADE**mark.

> It's a pre-existing connector. How do you have any control
> over Intel's use of PCMCIA?

 i don't.  nobody does.  you've misunderstood.

> Now if they'd *called* it EOMA68, or EOMA68-compatible, or some
> such... then sure.

 that's Trademark infringment, which is completely different.
CERTIFICATION mark infringment is based on STANDARDS.  a Trademark is
based on a PRODUCT or a brand..

 you cannot apply for a Trademark on a STANDARD.

 you cannot apply for a Certification Mark on a PRODUCT or BRAND

 you can apply for a Certification Mark on the H.264 STANDARD (if you
were the copyright holder)

 you cannot apply for a TRADEMARK on the H.264 STANDARD.

 does that help clarify the difference?

 in fact now i think about it, intel probably are actually infringing
the Certification Mark by having a product that could be *CONFUSED*
with EOMA68 computer cards.   PCMCIA doesn't matter so much: it's on
its way out.

 but if intel's "compute card" can in *any way* cause people to go
back to the shop and complain, "i bought this thing i don't know what
it is, it looks the same, i plugged it in and it didn't work, i tried
jamming it in really hard and it still didn't work" or worse, having
two items on the shelves and people even REMOTELY considering that
they're the same just because the size and casing is "about the right
size and about the right colour", that's enough to be a CERTIFICATION
mark infringment, if the CERTIFICATION mark (the standard) says "the
size must be 54 x 86 x 5mm".

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Jonathan Frederickson]

> if you check 30 seconds in the connector is completely different (otherwise 
> intel would have a Certification Mark infringment case on their hands)

Wait, how? It's a pre-existing connector. How do you have any control
over Intel's use of PCMCIA?

Now if they'd *called* it EOMA68, or EOMA68-compatible, or some
such... then sure.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Alain Williams]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 09:07:04AM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Alain Williams  wrote:
> 
> > Flag up interesting posts, I won't continue to look at that page.
> 
> 
> https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10083875=53615691

Modded +1 interesting

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Nick Hardiman]

> On 6 Jan 2017, at 08:52, Alain Williams  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 01:29:19AM +0100, raphael.melo...@gmail.com wrote:
>> 
>> On January 5, 2017 6:38:10 PM GMT+01:00, Alain Williams  
>> wrote:
>>> I wonder where they got the idea from:
>>> 
>>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38515472
>>> 
>>> http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/compute-card/intel-compute-card.html
>> 
>> It's astonishing... there are so many similarities it can't be a coincidence.
>> They just saw a new market and feeled they should be in.

I suspect this is a marketing exercise, to gauge interest in the idea. If this 
is an idea that made it onto some Intel marketer’s ‘good idea, let’s look at it 
more’ list, then EOMA68 computer cards are one step closer to being sold in 
supermarkets. I’m guessing, I know nobody at Intel. I do assume they are smart 
guys who have a pretty good hit rate at spotting these good ideas. 



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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

On Fri, Jan 6, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Alain Williams  wrote:

> Flag up interesting posts, I won't continue to look at that page.


https://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=10083875=53615691

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Alain Williams]

On Fri, Jan 06, 2017 at 01:29:19AM +0100, raphael.melo...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> On January 5, 2017 6:38:10 PM GMT+01:00, Alain Williams  
> wrote:
> >I wonder where they got the idea from:
> >
> >http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38515472
> >
> >http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/compute-card/intel-compute-card.html
> 
> It's astonishing... there are so many similarities it can't be a coincidence.
> They just saw a new market and feeled they should be in.
> 
> Intel is able to promote their products on a different scale but I do think 
> eoma68 can make it's way to the general public anyway. Having a good 
> community making it easy to use for the lambda user can make a difference 
> (just like there are Windows users switching to GNU/Linux everyday because 
> they met a friendly and open community online).

It has hit /. just when I have 15 mod points -- which expire soon, get posting:

https://hardware.slashdot.org/story/17/01/05/2049258/intels-compute-card-is-a-pc-that-can-fit-in-your-wallet

Flag up interesting posts, I won't continue to look at that page.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[raphael . melotte]

On January 5, 2017 6:38:10 PM GMT+01:00, Alain Williams  
wrote:
>I wonder where they got the idea from:
>
>http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38515472
>
>http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/compute-card/intel-compute-card.html

It's astonishing... there are so many similarities it can't be a coincidence.
They just saw a new market and feeled they should be in.

Intel is able to promote their products on a different scale but I do think 
eoma68 can make it's way to the general public anyway. Having a good community 
making it easy to use for the lambda user can make a difference (just like 
there are Windows users switching to GNU/Linux everyday because they met a 
friendly and open community online).
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Boris Barbour]

I don't think the Intel announcement is bad news. Firstly it
validates/builds recognition of the general idea, which may be helpful
in some quarters. Second, there are plenty of people that will want the
cheap, low power version, which means ARM. Intel can't do that. And they
hate really pushing cheap stuff, in case it undercuts the expensive stuff.

As you were...

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

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On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 7:54 PM, Jonathan Frederickson
 wrote:

> It's a shame that none of the previous EOMA-68 devices got off the
> ground before Intel pulled this out -

 that's what i thought, initially... but then i realised that it's
better with a long-term standard to get it right than to release
before the standard's ready.

standards have *ONE SHOT* at getting it right.  make even one single
mistake and that's it, nobody will trust the standard - EVER (they
also won't trust you, either).

 look up my analysis of the 96boards consumer standard, and the CEO's
response, for an example.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
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On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 7:40 PM, peter green  wrote:
> On 05/01/17 18:50, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:
>>>
>>> Why would they want to cripple their product by restricting themselves to
>>> the set of interfaces Luke has chosen.
>>
>>   ?? peter!!
>>
>>> Intel operates under a totally different set of constraints from Luke. If
>>> Luke wants to make a successor to his compute cards he needs to find a
>>> new
>>> SoC that has the right set of interfaces. If Intel wants to make a
>>> successor
>>> to their compute cards they can ensure that one of their upcoming SoCs
>>> has
>>> the right set of interfaces.
>>
>>   which are, in your opinion, the "right set of interfaces"?  serious
>> question.  if you're going to make such comments, you'd better be
>> prepared to back them up and be prepared to justify them with a
>> *REALLY* thorough analysis.
>
> If you look through the history of this list you will find the evolution of
> EOMA68 is a battle to find a compromise between
>
> 1. Interfaces that are useful.
> 2. Interfaces that are ubiquitous on SoCs today
> 3. Interfaces that are likely to be ubiquitous on SoCs tomorrow.
> 4. Interfaces that fit within the pins of a pre-existing economical
> connector.

 sounds like a reasonable set of requirements.  keep going.  you've
started so you're going to have to go through with a full evaluation.

> If I was in their place I would be including PCIe, SATA and Ethernet (likely
> in some kind of MII form so the card isn't burdened with the cost of a
> transceiver).

 ok so those are the set you're going with?  what about video, sound,
GPIO, low-speed peripherals and sensors?

 i'm not letting you off the hook here after you said that EOMA68's
interfaces are "crippled", peter.

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[peter green]

On 05/01/17 18:50, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote:

Why would they want to cripple their product by restricting themselves to
the set of interfaces Luke has chosen.

  ?? peter!!


Intel operates under a totally different set of constraints from Luke. If
Luke wants to make a successor to his compute cards he needs to find a new
SoC that has the right set of interfaces. If Intel wants to make a successor
to their compute cards they can ensure that one of their upcoming SoCs has
the right set of interfaces.

  which are, in your opinion, the "right set of interfaces"?  serious
question.  if you're going to make such comments, you'd better be
prepared to back them up and be prepared to justify them with a
*REALLY* thorough analysis.

If you look through the history of this list you will find the evolution of 
EOMA68 is a battle to find a compromise between

1. Interfaces that are useful.
2. Interfaces that are ubiquitous on SoCs today
3. Interfaces that are likely to be ubiquitous on SoCs tomorrow.
4. Interfaces that fit within the pins of a pre-existing economical connector.

Intel doesn't have to worry nearly as much about 2 through 4 as you do. They 
have no reason to make it easy for competitors to make compatible products. 
They can ensure that their own future SoCs retain the Interfaces previous ones 
had. They think and work on a scale where custom connectors are an economical 
option.

Of course this also means they have a much higher threshold of success. A 
product line with hundreds of thousands of sales would be a big success for 
someone like you but would likely be considered a flop for them.

If I was in their place I would be including PCIe, SATA and Ethernet (likely in 
some kind of MII form so the card isn't burdened with the cost of a 
transceiver).



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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Jonathan Frederickson]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton
 wrote:
>  which are, in your opinion, the "right set of interfaces"?  serious
> question.  if you're going to make such comments, you'd better be
> prepared to back them up and be prepared to justify them with a
> *REALLY* thorough analysis.

I think all he meant was that Intel can pick whatever interfaces they
want for the standard that they think will be relatively future-proof.
They don't have to worry about finding SoCs with those interfaces,
because they manufacture the SoCs - they just have to decide on them
at the start.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Alain Williams]

On Thu, Jan 05, 2017 at 07:17:32PM +0100, Phil Hands wrote:
> Alain Williams  writes:
> 
> > I wonder where they got the idea from:
> >
> > http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38515472
> >
> > http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/compute-card/intel-compute-card.html
> 
> That's _very_ light on details, and I note that they're careful not to
> show the business end of the socket -- so is that the old tactic of an
> incumbent announcing vapourware in order to try and kill interest in a
> disruptive product that they would prefer not to have on the market?

About 30 seconds in on the BBC video you get a quick view of the hole.

-- 
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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:17 PM, Philip Hands  wrote:
> Alain Williams  writes:
>
>> I wonder where they got the idea from:
>>
>> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38515472
>>
>> http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/compute-card/intel-compute-card.html
>
> That's _very_ light on details, and I note that they're careful not to
> show the business end of the socket -- so is that the old tactic of an
> incumbent announcing vapourware in order to try and kill interest in a
> disruptive product that they would prefer not to have on the market?

 it'll be very interesting to see if they actually "Get It".  the
ice-computer team - even with $100m investment - utterly failed.  the
team behind olpc australia, with a $AUD 10m grant from the aus govt,
failed to get it.  google, with project ara, failed to get it.

 so... yeah...

l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton]

---
crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68


On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 6:05 PM, Julie Marchant  wrote:
> That could be a problem. If it's successful, people will associate the 
> concept with Intel and assume that eoma is a cheap ripoff. Also, with Intel 
> controlling it, you can bet x86 will dominate it.

 ... yyup.

> Our response should be to publicly urge Intel to use an eoma standard, to 
> ensure architecture agnosticism and that there isn't a conflict of interest.

 if they've actually reused the PCMCIA connectors then that's an
incompatibility issue which would be a Certification Mark infringment
[risk of bringing EOMA68 into disrepute through electrical or
electronic incompatibility].

 l.

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Re: [Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Philip Hands]

Alain Williams  writes:

> I wonder where they got the idea from:
>
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38515472
>
> http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/compute-card/intel-compute-card.html

That's _very_ light on details, and I note that they're careful not to
show the business end of the socket -- so is that the old tactic of an
incumbent announcing vapourware in order to try and kill interest in a
disruptive product that they would prefer not to have on the market?

Cheers, Phil.
-- 
|)|  Philip Hands  [+44 (0)20 8530 9560]  HANDS.COM Ltd.
|-|  http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/
|(|  Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34,   21075 Hamburg,GERMANY


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[Arm-netbook] Intel at CES

[Alain Williams]

I wonder where they got the idea from:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38515472

http://www.intel.co.uk/content/www/uk/en/compute-card/intel-compute-card.html

-- 
Alain Williams
Linux/GNU Consultant - Mail systems, Web sites, Networking, Programmer, IT 
Lecturer.
+44 (0) 787 668 0256  http://www.phcomp.co.uk/
Parliament Hill Computers Ltd. Registration Information: 
http://www.phcomp.co.uk/contact.php
#include 

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