RE: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
Hi, QoS is nice (and important) but only works within a FULLY controlled end to end link. Inside a BIG enterprise LAN, on leased lines its OK. Using end to end MPLS should also be ok Mind that some provider sell MPLS but it is not their own MPLS end to end. Going from one provider on MPLS to another on MPLS, you lose all the benefits. No control. Using the World Wide Wait (Internet) it will not help. A waste of money. My 2 cents. Shaoul Jacobson Senior VoIP Consultant Tellink Tel : +32 3 201 96 36 Fax : +32 3 227 09 81 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
On 4 Apr 2005, at 09:25, Shaoul Jacobson - TELLINK wrote: Hi, QoS is nice (and important) but only works within a FULLY controlled end to end link. Inside a BIG enterprise LAN, on leased lines its OK. Using end to end MPLS should also be ok Mind that some provider sell MPLS but it is not their own MPLS end to end. Going from one provider on MPLS to another on MPLS, you lose all the benefits. No control. Using the World Wide Wait (Internet) it will not help. A waste of money. My 2 cents. I'm not sure I totally agree. It is also useful if you control the narrowest pipe. Take the example of several sub-offices joined to a head office PBX over 'public' ADSL lines. Let's say the company buys all the ADSL lines from the same provider. In such a set-up, the uplink side of the sub-office ADSL links are likely to be the main bandwidth limit. A well configured router there will slow outgoing email etc to preserve the quality of current VOIP sessions. Sure, the provider may have internal bandwidth constrictions, but they are unlikely to kick in before the 256k up channel of a typical ADSL. Oh, and, the web and the internet are not the same thing. Think like that and you'll forget mail. Which is a huge bandwidth consumer, and can stand being delayed by a second or two. Tim. http://www.westhawk.co.uk/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
Hi, I'm not sure I totally agree. Good, we do agree on some :) I also agree with some of your remarks (no flame war) It is also useful if you control the narrowest pipe. I agree. But I disagree about the definition of the narrowest pipe. A well configured router there will slow outgoing email etc to preserve the quality of current VOIP sessions. agreed Let's say the company buys all the ADSL lines from the same provider. Buying all connection to the same provider is a wise decision. It does not give any guaranty but this can be discussed :) You are also a bigger customer. So you could negociate some QoS, sla, ... (read my thought after my sig) Most broadband (cable, xdsl) connection should provide enough bandwidth. If you use 70% or more of your bandwidth then I agree QoS will definitively help. (look during peaks for each up down link) Otherwise, not much. You share the bandwidth with other customers on your provider's backbone. And your ISP decides how to shape traffic. Some VoIP providers in the US are suing some ISP's because their VoIP traffic is degraded. The situation can be even worse with a cable connection as you share the bandwidth AT your end-point not at the backbone. Regards, Shaoul Jacobson Senior VoIP Consultant Tellink Tel : +32 3 201 96 36 Fax : +32 3 227 09 81 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] PS I have worked in close relations with some 'big' providers. They accept sla's, backup circuits even when they know they cannot provide. The customer is billed for this extra 'service' Extra billing is the only extra service the customer gets. Beside the false safety he things he got. If an accident happens, the isp pays for the lack of service. This is far cheaper than implementing the needed technology. I won't give names here, but this was the ways at some big international isp's, not a small local isp. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
tim panton [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On 4 Apr 2005, at 09:25, Shaoul Jacobson - TELLINK wrote: Hi, QoS is nice (and important) but only works within a FULLY controlled end to end link. Inside a BIG enterprise LAN, on leased lines its OK. Using end to end MPLS should also be ok Mind that some provider sell MPLS but it is not their own MPLS end to end. Going from one provider on MPLS to another on MPLS, you lose all the benefits. No control. Using the World Wide Wait (Internet) it will not help. A waste of money. My 2 cents. I'm not sure I totally agree. It is also useful if you control the narrowest pipe. Take the example of several sub-offices joined to a head office PBX over 'public' ADSL lines. Let's say the company buys all the ADSL lines from the same provider. In such a set-up, the uplink side of the sub-office ADSL links are likely to be the main bandwidth limit. A well configured router there will slow outgoing email etc to preserve the quality of current VOIP sessions. Sure, the provider may have internal bandwidth constrictions, but they are unlikely to kick in before the 256k up channel of a typical ADSL. Oh, and, the web and the internet are not the same thing. Think like that and you'll forget mail. Which is a huge bandwidth consumer, and can stand being delayed by a second or two. Tim. I agree, especially qos on upstream might be beneficial, and surely is in a cable modem setup. E.g. my modem has a 10 Mbit LAN interface, but uplink is limited to 256Kbit. So when I have many things going out, uplink will be much sooner saturated than the LAN link, and cable modem buffers run full leading to looong latencies and maybe even package loss. Putting a router before the modem shaping the upstream traffic solves that problem. Regards, Bruno. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
On 03-Apr-2005, Tim Pushor wrote: I prefer PF's approach to security first, convenience second, and I *really* like the fact that PF has a real parser. As the requements get more complex, having everything in one file, and very readable and structured is a huge plus. Also, the integration with ALTQ is nice, especially for these types of applications. I agree with everything Tim wrote above, and I'll add that the biggest factor that influenced me in my move to OpenBSD for my firewall was that it was the only free unix I found that could do bidirectional filtering in bridged mode. As in, when you're in a bridged configuration you can filter in and out on an interface. Neither Linux nor FreeBSD could do this. It's certainly an edge case, but if you need that feature it's invaluable. I posted my asterisk altq experiments here: http://slacker.com/~nugget/asterisk4.php -- David McNett [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://slacker.com/~nugget/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
I'm not sure about QoS, but I do run ATLQ on FreeBSD/PF. In a SOHO environment where there is likely to be DSL or cable, I find it very useful (on the upload side at least, which is usually a problem on asyncrhonous connections). I can max out my pipe and hear no effect of it on the phone. Shaoul Jacobson - TELLINK wrote: Hi, QoS is nice (and important) but only works within a FULLY controlled end to end link. Inside a BIG enterprise LAN, on leased lines its OK. Using end to end MPLS should also be ok Mind that some provider sell MPLS but it is not their own MPLS end to end. Going from one provider on MPLS to another on MPLS, you lose all the benefits. No control. Using the World Wide Wait (Internet) it will not help. A waste of money. My 2 cents. Shaoul Jacobson Senior VoIP Consultant Tellink Tel : +32 3 201 96 36 Fax : +32 3 227 09 81 e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
At 15:36 04/04/2005, you wrote: On 03-Apr-2005, Tim Pushor wrote: I prefer PF's approach to security first, convenience second, and I *really* like the fact that PF has a real parser. As the requements get more complex, having everything in one file, and very readable and structured is a huge plus. Also, the integration with ALTQ is nice, especially for these types of applications. I agree with everything Tim wrote above, and I'll add that the biggest factor that influenced me in my move to OpenBSD for my firewall was that it was the only free unix I found that could do bidirectional filtering in bridged mode. As in, when you're in a bridged configuration you can filter in and out on an interface. Neither Linux nor FreeBSD could do this. It's certainly an edge case, but if you need that feature it's invaluable. I'm using ALTQ since FreeBSD 4.6 and it's also exist ALTQ+PF that's near the same as OpenBSD version. And i confirm that's shapping with ALTQ work great ! Even with 32 Kbps. You can easely shape around 1000 rules and have a full Fast Ethernet port on a dual PIII (FreeBSD ALTQ port without PF) ALTQ have many shape algo, maybe the only one with such diversity. You have some CD distribution with ALTQ enable. I posted my asterisk altq experiments here: http://slacker.com/~nugget/asterisk4.php -- David McNett [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://slacker.com/~nugget/ ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users -- Arnaud Pignard ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Frontier Online - Opérateur Internet ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
Any FreeBSD/OpenBSD solutions we should add to the list at the bottom of this page? http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index.php?page=VOIP+Routers Jim James H. Thompson[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Arnaud PIGNARD To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 3:57 AM Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations At 15:36 04/04/2005, you wrote:On 03-Apr-2005, Tim Pushor wrote: I prefer PF's approach to security first, convenience second, and I *really* like the fact that PF has a real parser. As the requements get more complex, having everything in one file, and very readable and structured is a huge plus. Also, the integration with ALTQ is nice, especially for these types of applications.I agree with everything Tim wrote above, and I'll add that the biggestfactor that influenced me in my move to OpenBSD for my firewall was thatit was the only free unix I found that could do bidirectional filteringin bridged mode. As in, when you're in a bridged configuration you canfilter in and out on an interface. Neither Linux nor FreeBSD could dothis. It's certainly an edge case, but if you need that feature it'sinvaluable.I'm using ALTQ since FreeBSD 4.6 and it's also exist ALTQ+PF that's near the same as OpenBSD version.And i confirm that's shapping with ALTQ work great ! Even with 32 Kbps.You can easely shape around 1000 rules and have a full Fast Ethernet port on a dual PIII (FreeBSD ALTQ port without PF)ALTQ have many shape algo, maybe the only one with such diversity.You have some CD distribution with ALTQ enable.I posted my asterisk altq experiments here: http://slacker.com/~nugget/asterisk4.php--David McNett [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://slacker.com/~nugget/___Asterisk-Users mailing listAsterisk-Users@lists.digium.comhttp://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-usersTo UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users-- Arnaud Pignard ([EMAIL PROTECTED])Frontier Online - Opérateur Internet___Asterisk-Users mailing listAsterisk-Users@lists.digium.comhttp://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-usersTo UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
I'd be willing to write something up on integrating pf with * behind a NAT using ALTQ for traffic shaping if anyone is interested. It'd probably take me a couple weeks though .. Tim James H. Thompson wrote: Any FreeBSD/OpenBSD solutions we should add to the list at the bottom of this page? http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index.php?page=VOIP+Routers ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
Thanks for your offer. I would find that very useful, having never heard of pf before this discussion! Regards Cameron - Original Message - From: Tim Pushor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion asterisk-users@lists.digium.com Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2005 3:38 AM Subject: Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations I'd be willing to write something up on integrating pf with * behind a NAT using ALTQ for traffic shaping if anyone is interested. It'd probably take me a couple weeks though .. Tim James H. Thompson wrote: Any FreeBSD/OpenBSD solutions we should add to the list at the bottom of this page? http://www.voip-info.org/tiki-index.php?page=VOIP+Routers ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
Hi List As I have a Cisco PIX 515, with NO QoS functionality, and Im looking for a router that does outgoing QoS to put in front of my PIX. Problem is that Im using my 768/8096Kbit ADSL for both data and VoIP, and as soon as data is being sent to the internet the sound quality drops to something that is of NO use. Any suggestions or recommendations is appreciated. Best reg. BennyB ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
Hi! As I have a Cisco PIX 515, with NO QoS functionality, and Im looking for a router that does outgoing QoS to put in front of my PIX. Problem is that Im using my 768/8096Kbit ADSL for both data and VoIP, and as soon as data is being sent to the internet the sound quality drops to something that is of NO use. Any suggestions or recommendations is appreciated. Checkout m0n0wall on a Soekris or WRAP device. Cheers, Philipp ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
On Sunday 03 April 2005 06:33, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi List As I have a Cisco PIX 515, with NO QoS functionality, and I'm looking for a router that does outgoing QoS to put in front of my PIX. Problem is that I'm using my 768/8096Kbit ADSL for both data and VoIP, and as soon as data is being sent to the internet the sound quality drops to something that is of NO use. Any suggestions or recommendations is appreciated. As usual there's nothing that will beat OpenBSD. Takes 15 minutes to build following the instructions on the CD cover. -- NVC List Manager (For external lists) ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
NVC List Manager wrote: As usual there's nothing that will beat OpenBSD. Takes 15 minutes to build following the instructions on the CD cover. To someone who has never installed OpenBSD (or FreeBSD + pf for that matter) the learning curve is going to be much much higher than 15 minutes, although one you learn PF you will never go back! Tim ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
On April 3, 2005 08:13 am, Tim Pushor wrote: To someone who has never installed OpenBSD (or FreeBSD + pf for that matter) the learning curve is going to be much much higher than 15 minutes, although one you learn PF you will never go back! I've never seen the great advantage to pf over ip and tc. Perhaps I'm just not that learned though. :-) -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: asterisk-users@lists.digium.com Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 3:33 AM Subject: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations As I have a Cisco PIX 515, with NO QoS functionality, and I'm looking for a router that does outgoing QoS to put in front of my PIX. PixOS 7.0.1 supports QoS. Yesterday it was on TAC's download page. No, I have not installed yet. I.N. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Router with QoS recommendations
iptables looks very powerful, thats for sure. I prefer PF's approach to security first, convenience second, and I *really* like the fact that PF has a real parser. As the requements get more complex, having everything in one file, and very readable and structured is a huge plus. Also, the integration with ALTQ is nice, especially for these types of applications. Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: On April 3, 2005 08:13 am, Tim Pushor wrote: To someone who has never installed OpenBSD (or FreeBSD + pf for that matter) the learning curve is going to be much much higher than 15 minutes, although one you learn PF you will never go back! I've never seen the great advantage to pf over ip and tc. Perhaps I'm just not that learned though. :-) -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
