Re: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
Brian, I am reluctant to post against you. However, for my previous 2 emails simply based on facts you as a third person have over-responded, with no good reasons, in the exact way that you commented me. YOU proved yourself, not me. Are you that guy the phone number is associated with? That'll explain the exact reason you do this to me. People can read and understand what I have been doing here. There will be NO more from me. V. On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 01:49:38 -0500, Brian Capouch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Vincent wrote: Hi all, You don't want to be fooled by - -. This guy has NO business ethic. When He refused to realize a business deal in which I agreed to pay for his coding help for me, will he personally pay for the hosting of the list? More interestingly, he mentioned in the list that he lives in in Timbuktu, Ontario while he told me that he lives in Asheville, North Carolina but home number is a Hendersonville, NC phone number. I was just updated that according to the phone company records that is not the name of the person the phone number is associated with. Vincent I'm sorry to report that your bitter, petty, and unethical attempt to gain vengance against this list member is totally transparent. It will have no effect on anyone's opinion of the target of your rant, but great effect on everyone's opinion of you. You abused the mailing list, you took a personal gripe public in a vulgar way, and you proved your own cluelessness by not getting his joke about being from Timbuktu. Next time you should count to, um, infinity before posting crap like this to the list. B. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
Hi all, You don't want to be fooled by Race Vanderdecken. This guy has NO business ethic. When He refused to realize a business deal in which I agreed to pay for his coding help for me, will he personally pay for the hosting of the list? More interestingly, he mentioned in the list that he lives in in Timbuktu, Ontario while he told me that he lives in Asheville, North Carolina but home number is a Hendersonville, NC phone number. I was just updated that according to the phone company records that is not the name of the person the phone number is associated with. Regards, Vincent On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:57:12 -0500, Race Vanderdecken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If some one would like to show me the site that explains how to setup a mailing list then I will create a Newbie list for asterisk and voip questions and answers. I am only asking for someone to show me the site and maybe a few pointers on how to start it up. Only because I don't have the time or experience to do it quickely enough to get the newbies off the list. And I am a bit slow with apache and web type sutff, as you can tell by my website codetyrant.com. I will personally pay for the hosting of the list. It is not that I am tired or will ever grow tired of passing out fish and giving fishing lessons it is just I don't have the good fortune to be adept at web interfaces. Also, suggestions for the domain name would be welcomed. Race The Tyrant Vanderdecken In the Land of the Blind, the One-eyed man is Elvis..., copyright RPV 1997. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Critchfield Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:28 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 11:01 -0500, Race Vanderdecken wrote: This list is owned by no one. Actually it is owned by Digium. It has many contributers though. When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they last thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house. Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their car out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive past. As a person who spent 9 hours in traffic last winter just to drive 15 miles due to idiots who should have just stayed home, I think your analogy breaks down. At some point, you either need to learn to drive or you pay someone else to transport you or your stuff. Same applies to computer work, either you can do the work yourself or you pay someone else to do it. Even your snow driver analogy works here, you either get yourself out of the ditch or you pay someone to do it for you. The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't even interested in getting out to help push. -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
Vincent wrote: Hi all, You don't want to be fooled by - -. This guy has NO business ethic. When He refused to realize a business deal in which I agreed to pay for his coding help for me, will he personally pay for the hosting of the list? More interestingly, he mentioned in the list that he lives in in Timbuktu, Ontario while he told me that he lives in Asheville, North Carolina but home number is a Hendersonville, NC phone number. I was just updated that according to the phone company records that is not the name of the person the phone number is associated with. Vincent I'm sorry to report that your bitter, petty, and unethical attempt to gain vengance against this list member is totally transparent. It will have no effect on anyone's opinion of the target of your rant, but great effect on everyone's opinion of you. You abused the mailing list, you took a personal gripe public in a vulgar way, and you proved your own cluelessness by not getting his joke about being from Timbuktu. Next time you should count to, um, infinity before posting crap like this to the list. B. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
On March 5, 2005 01:39 am, Jonathan Hobbs wrote: Ignore them and they will go away. Only after polluting the list with incessant How do I do X? messages, and then only after subsequently polluting the list with asterisk sucks messages, and then all the bad karma of some clueless twitt who couldn't be bothered to embrace OSS in the first place spewing incorrect information around, all because they should have hired a consultant to do their work for them instead. Ignoring them doesn't work, sorry. Education has a (marginally) better shot. -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
It's nice to see that some people think so highly of themselves and are above all others. It's quite amusing to watch people like you give thinking so highly of yourself and so little of others. In the spirit of Asterisk and Mark's organization-Digium, I certainly could understand why you aren't employed by them. Maybe you should take a class on being positive and helpful, but again you maybe above all that, in your own mind, others don't think you are that hot, sorry to burst your bubble. --- Andrew Kohlsmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On March 5, 2005 01:39 am, Jonathan Hobbs wrote: Ignore them and they will go away. Only after polluting the list with incessant How do I do X? messages, and then only after subsequently polluting the list with asterisk sucks messages, and then all the bad karma of some clueless twitt who couldn't be bothered to embrace OSS in the first place spewing incorrect information around, all because they should have hired a consultant to do their work for them instead. Ignoring them doesn't work, sorry. Education has a (marginally) better shot. -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
On March 5, 2005 10:48 am, asterisk phones wrote: It's nice to see that some people think so highly of themselves and are above all others. It's quite amusing to watch people like you give thinking so highly of yourself and so little of others. In the spirit of Asterisk and Mark's organization-Digium, I certainly could understand why you aren't employed by them. Maybe you should take a class on being positive and helpful, but again you maybe above all that, in your own mind, others don't think you are that hot, sorry to burst your bubble. Blow it out yer arse; If you had a half a clue you'd see just how much I do try to help Asterisk, both on this list and on #asterisk. I am generally a very helpful and positive person, but when it comes to OSS projects you better be making at least a half-assed attempt to help yourself or I'll attach a rate sheet to my reply, plain and simple. I make (good) money off of people who choose to be ignorant, and I give the same service away for free to those who want to actually learn, since it benefits the community. I specifically said that ignoring newbies is not an answer and you come back with this kind of retort? I think it shows your inexperience not only with this particular OSS product, but with mailing lists and open source in general. It's a plain and obvious fact. You ignore someone who needs clue and they get up in arms because OSS/project X/whatever stinks and nobody will help me and I'm gonna go use $foo, because it's so much cooler. I reread my reply (the one you wrote this tripe about) -- I can't see a single hint of my being high on myself -- I merely disagreed with you and gave reasons. I'd even go as far as to say my reasoning is an excellent example of WHY you don't ignore newbies. You're right, they *do* eventually go away, but the cloud of negativity they leave behind is like a lingering fart; it affects the entire community for quite some time, long after the offender has left. As far as others thinking I'm hot -- no need to burst any bubbles, I let people speak for themselves and I personally live by the prison credo -- no matter how big and tough you think you are, there is always someone bigger and tougher. I've got plenty of friends and acquaintences who think I'm quite helpful. I've also got a couple acquaintences and enemies who think otherwise. Obviously you fit into the latter. Oh well, that's your choice. -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
I really don't like speaking about it, since it's a topic that will never go away on it's own if we don't speak about it, nor will it go away if we do speak about it. Remember yesterdays wannabees are todays newbies, and todays newbies are tomorrows experts, and so on. The newbies that see this thread now will doubtfully relay it on to tomorrows newbies. However for todays sake I decided to throw my 2 cents. For yesterdays newbie: Thy shall remember they were once newbies. For todays newbie: Thy shall remember they will someday (if they are really trying hard) have to deal with other newbies. Don't use the list as your personal consultant. On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 11:12:45 -0500, Andrew Kohlsmith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On March 5, 2005 10:48 am, asterisk phones wrote: It's nice to see that some people think so highly of themselves and are above all others. It's quite amusing to watch people like you give thinking so highly of yourself and so little of others. In the spirit of Asterisk and Mark's organization-Digium, I certainly could understand why you aren't employed by them. Maybe you should take a class on being positive and helpful, but again you maybe above all that, in your own mind, others don't think you are that hot, sorry to burst your bubble. Blow it out yer arse; If you had a half a clue you'd see just how much I do try to help Asterisk, both on this list and on #asterisk. I am generally a very helpful and positive person, but when it comes to OSS projects you better be making at least a half-assed attempt to help yourself or I'll attach a rate sheet to my reply, plain and simple. I make (good) money off of people who choose to be ignorant, and I give the same service away for free to those who want to actually learn, since it benefits the community. I specifically said that ignoring newbies is not an answer and you come back with this kind of retort? I think it shows your inexperience not only with this particular OSS product, but with mailing lists and open source in general. It's a plain and obvious fact. You ignore someone who needs clue and they get up in arms because OSS/project X/whatever stinks and nobody will help me and I'm gonna go use $foo, because it's so much cooler. I reread my reply (the one you wrote this tripe about) -- I can't see a single hint of my being high on myself -- I merely disagreed with you and gave reasons. I'd even go as far as to say my reasoning is an excellent example of WHY you don't ignore newbies. You're right, they *do* eventually go away, but the cloud of negativity they leave behind is like a lingering fart; it affects the entire community for quite some time, long after the offender has left. As far as others thinking I'm hot -- no need to burst any bubbles, I let people speak for themselves and I personally live by the prison credo -- no matter how big and tough you think you are, there is always someone bigger and tougher. I've got plenty of friends and acquaintences who think I'm quite helpful. I've also got a couple acquaintences and enemies who think otherwise. Obviously you fit into the latter. Oh well, that's your choice. -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
Ronald Wiplinger wrote: *snipped Sometimes it is not the if you make a search, often is for new comers what to aks for. If you do not know the specific term, than you need to ask somewhere, and I think the list is good for that. *snipped no, if you don't know a 'term' you search for a glossary! http://www.google.com/search?hl=enq=%22telecom+glossary%22btnG=Google+Search 86,700 hits for telecom glossary, i think that you should be able to find one to your liking. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
- Original Message - From: David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sure. So say, I tried a Googling for X, but I didn't have any luck. Then I looked at pages X and Y in the Wiki, but couldn't find anything that related to my problem. People are a lot more sympathetic if you demonstrate you've made some effort to find the answer on your own. True, but sometimes a newbie doesn't know that people are looking for this, they're new to how lists work as well. So why not answer the question, nicely, and then say 'BTW, some people will be more symathetic if you research... yada yada...' The key thing being the term 'nicely'. Some people don't realize just how agressive their blunt approach can come across to a newbie... Paul ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick!
- Original Message - From: David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] Well, sometimes that works. But I've been on a lot of lists where newbies who thought they were being ignored started flaming people for not responding to them, writing posts badmouthing the project, hijacking other threads, accusing people of being cliquish, etc. Sometimes you just can't win. Sure. But if they flame, then they deserve to get hammered on. In that case, hammer away. However, I don't think it's fair to lump all newbies into that basket. Let them throw the first punch, rather than assume that all newbies who don't know better are out to wreak havoc How would the experts like it if everyone assumes they're a bunch of arrogant techies who only want to talk down to those less worthy, before they speak up and prove it to be true? :) Don't make the same assumptions in the reverse for the newbies... regards, Paul ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick!
Jeff Busch wrote and I modified: *** Asterisk is a Open Source community and supported by volunteers. Please do the following before asking one of these volunteers for help. 1. Before asking a question, do a Google search 2. After a general Google search, do a specific search on this group 3. After a Google search, look at http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk the information contained in these pages will answer 95% of your startup questions. 4. If you have done 1, 2, 3 - feel free to email the list. 5. Please do not email the list asking people to hold your hand. That is not what the list is for, it is for help if you run into an implementation problem, not to teach you the basics by using 1, 2, 3. In addition: Output from the Asterisk console with -vvv and sip debug turned on is VERY helpful to diagnose your errors. * I like this idea if it is possible! I am trying to get my sales department to do something like this as well. I could write a hundred FAQs, but nobody reads them, just calls:) Shanon ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
To paraphrase: Ignore them and they will go away. - Original Message - From: David Brodbeck [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion' asterisk-users@lists.digium.com Sent: March 4, 2005 11:04 AM Subject: RE: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! -Original Message- From: Paul Fielding [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Frankly, I agree. If you don't like the question, feel it's lame or dumb, or don't like that someone hasn't done their research, then delete the message. Well, sometimes that works. But I've been on a lot of lists where newbies who thought they were being ignored started flaming people for not responding to them, writing posts badmouthing the project, hijacking other threads, accusing people of being cliquish, etc. Sometimes you just can't win. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
If you really want to do this the asterisk list is based off of mailman. You can learn all about mailman here: http://list.org/ But really, what are the odds that newbs will know to go there first? Are you going to moderate it? Someone has to actually answer the questions you know, if a newb only list is going to exist. Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newb for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or they will fail). This is the way of the open source community. Otherwise, they can hire one of the many companies that have sprung up around supporting open source products (tons for asterisk specifically, some of you probably even get paid this way) why do you think redhat makes so much on support contracts? Personally, I'm only not a newb cause I paid for a training class to get me out newbieism(sp?) My 2 cents -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Race Vanderdecken Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:57 AM To: 'Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion' Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! If some one would like to show me the site that explains how to setup a mailing list then I will create a Newbie list for asterisk and voip questions and answers. I am only asking for someone to show me the site and maybe a few pointers on how to start it up. Only because I don't have the time or experience to do it quickely enough to get the newbies off the list. And I am a bit slow with apache and web type sutff, as you can tell by my website codetyrant.com. I will personally pay for the hosting of the list. It is not that I am tired or will ever grow tired of passing out fish and giving fishing lessons it is just I don't have the good fortune to be adept at web interfaces. Also, suggestions for the domain name would be welcomed. Race The Tyrant Vanderdecken In the Land of the Blind, the One-eyed man is Elvis..., copyright RPV 1997. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Critchfield Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:28 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 11:01 -0500, Race Vanderdecken wrote: This list is owned by no one. Actually it is owned by Digium. It has many contributers though. When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they last thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house. Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their car out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive past. As a person who spent 9 hours in traffic last winter just to drive 15 miles due to idiots who should have just stayed home, I think your analogy breaks down. At some point, you either need to learn to drive or you pay someone else to transport you or your stuff. Same applies to computer work, either you can do the work yourself or you pay someone else to do it. Even your snow driver analogy works here, you either get yourself out of the ditch or you pay someone to do it for you. The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't even interested in getting out to help push. -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick!
- Original Message - Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newb for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or they will fail). This is the way of the open source community. Here Here, I'm with you. I find it a constant source of amazement how, in all the various lists I've followed, people find it necessary to beat on the new guy. Even the 'if you don't want to get flamed then do some research first' attitude i'm not a fan of. Sometimes newbies are also newbies to the concept of lists, etc, as well as the topic of the list. Frankly, I agree. If you don't like the question, feel it's lame or dumb, or don't like that someone hasn't done their research, then delete the message. If you think they're wasting your time by writing a message, then don't waste any more of your own time by responding to it. I find the pummelling of newbies more annoying than the newbie question itself. regards, Paul ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
As someone who is new to Asterisk and Linux (I guess I am a newbie), but who has been doing a ton of research, Google searches, and is getting to intimately know the wiki, I take offense to Steven Critchfield's commentary about newbies. It is interesting... There seems to be a passion surrounding the * system that is coming from a variety of work areas including telecom engineers, network admins, and just home tinklers. You have the opportunity to provide a solution that many small to medium businesses could take advantage of in amazing ways. This is the tip of the iceberg, * could play a major role in telecommunications in the future. (I make these statements after having just dropped $120,000 on an Inter-tel system a year ago, and having gone through the whole process of evaluating a variety of systems. Each system provided good features, but it seemed like each of the feature sets provided in * ended up costing at least a couple grand to add to our system... But this is another discussion entirely.) Unfortunately, I feel that you may end up pushing people away if you keep attacking them. There are people like myself who are decision makers in using this technology and who actually have money to spend on implementation. If we needed to, we would hire someone from this group to help us out. It has not come to that yet for us, as I have been able to implement most aspects without serious problems. This list is for general Asterisk user questions... And from what I have seen this is the best place for someone like myself to get a grip on the different technical concepts related to *. I believe that I, as what you would refer to as a Newbie, have just as much of a right to ask a question about setting up *, as a seasoned * user has the right to ask questions relating to implementing a more complex technology and getting help for a problem. Now, to offer a solution, and I don't know if this is possible, as I know nothing about the mechanics behind this list... Is it possible to automatically send an email to each new subscriber after they confirm their email that gives them some basic how-to's related to this list i.e. (this is what I have done) 1. Before asking a question, do a Google search 2. After a general Google search, do a specific search on this group 3. After a Google search, look at http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk the information contained in these pages will answer 95% of your startup questions. 4. If you have done 1, 2, 3 - feel free to email the list. 5. Please do not email the list asking people to hold your hand. That is not what the list is for, it is for help if you run into an implementation problem, not to teach you the basics by using 1, 2, 3. Thanks for your thoughts on this! Jeff Busch [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shadow Roldan Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 4:32 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! If you really want to do this the asterisk list is based off of mailman. You can learn all about mailman here: http://list.org/ But really, what are the odds that newbs will know to go there first? Are you going to moderate it? Someone has to actually answer the questions you know, if a newb only list is going to exist. Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newb for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or they will fail). This is the way of the open source community. Otherwise, they can hire one of the many companies that have sprung up around supporting open source products (tons for asterisk specifically, some of you probably even get paid this way) why do you think redhat makes so much on support contracts? Personally, I'm only not a newb cause I paid for a training class to get me out newbieism(sp?) My 2 cents -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Race Vanderdecken Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:57 AM To: 'Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion' Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! If some one would like to show me the site that explains how to setup a mailing list then I will create a Newbie list for asterisk and voip questions and answers. I am only asking for someone to show me the site and maybe a few pointers on how to start it up. Only because I don't have the time or experience to do it quickely enough to get the newbies off the list. And I am a bit slow with apache and web type sutff, as you can tell by my website codetyrant.com. I will personally pay for the hosting of the list. It is not that I am tired or will ever grow tired of passing out fish and giving fishing lessons it is just I don't have the good fortune to be adept at web interfaces. Also, suggestions for the domain name would
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick!
On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 17:59 -0700, Paul Fielding wrote: - Original Message - Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newb for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or they will fail). This is the way of the open source community. Here Here, I'm with you. I find it a constant source of amazement how, in all the various lists I've followed, people find it necessary to beat on the new guy. Even the 'if you don't want to get flamed then do some research first' attitude i'm not a fan of. Sometimes newbies are also newbies to the concept of lists, etc, as well as the topic of the list. Frankly, I agree. If you don't like the question, feel it's lame or dumb, or don't like that someone hasn't done their research, then delete the message. If you think they're wasting your time by writing a message, then don't waste any more of your own time by responding to it. I find the pummelling of newbies more annoying than the newbie question itself. As I have told others before. This list is a valuable resource even for those of us who know a lot about asterisk already. The users who would rather come here than do any work on their own become pollution to this list. They are the repetitive spam that has no benefit to the ones receiving it. This type of behavior has run many of the gurus off of this list. They are unlikely to be replaced. BTW, telling a user they haven't done the prerequisite home work before asking a question is no where near pummelling. Pummelling would be calling them names and making personal attacks. Life is full of venues where you need to meet specific criteria before you are considered worthy of interacting. All that to lay the ground work to say that when we send a user back out to the search engines to do their homework, we do so as a jealous protecting of this forum and what value we receive from it. -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 17:09 -0800, Jeff Busch wrote: As someone who is new to Asterisk and Linux (I guess I am a newbie), but who has been doing a ton of research, Google searches, and is getting to intimately know the wiki, I take offense to Steven Critchfield's commentary about newbies. 1. Before asking a question, do a Google search 2. After a general Google search, do a specific search on this group 3. After a Google search, look at http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk the information contained in these pages will answer 95% of your startup questions. 4. If you have done 1, 2, 3 - feel free to email the list. 5. Please do not email the list asking people to hold your hand. That is not what the list is for, it is for help if you run into an implementation problem, not to teach you the basics by using 1, 2, 3. After trimming 4 or so email messages out of this that didn't seem to be relevant to your reply other than being in the same thread, I am left wondering what exactly you took offense to. It seems the portion left below matches pretty much with your comment above. We both seem to feel it is important to do the searching first and not expect hand holding. You and I are much more the same than not. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Critchfield Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:28 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't even interested in getting out to help push. -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
Steven Critchfield wrote: On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 17:59 -0700, Paul Fielding wrote: - Original Message - Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newb for being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW or they will fail). This is the way of the open source community. Here Here, I'm with you. I find it a constant source of amazement how, in all the various lists I've followed, people find it necessary to beat on the new guy. Even the 'if you don't want to get flamed then do some research first' attitude i'm not a fan of. Sometimes newbies are also newbies to the concept of lists, etc, as well as the topic of the list. Frankly, I agree. If you don't like the question, feel it's lame or dumb, or don't like that someone hasn't done their research, then delete the message. If you think they're wasting your time by writing a message, then don't waste any more of your own time by responding to it. I find the pummelling of newbies more annoying than the newbie question itself. Sometimes it is not the if you make a search, often is for new comers what to aks for. If you do not know the specific term, than you need to ask somewhere, and I think the list is good for that. To point to the 'wiki' or 'Google' in general often does not make sense!!! Just be silent than, if you do not know a better hint!!! If I get a reply to my question Look at the wiki or Have you searched it on Google is for me just a time waster!! If the answer is, look up xxx yyy than it makes more sense to me!!! The term RTFM is not always a good hint either! Sometimes the right answer, even it is the 100th times is better (maybe even shorter) than a comment like that! Besides the documentation of * and add-ons are either changing often or changing not often enough to the newest version. As user we cannot guess what the developer team found better to use now. E.g., ASTCC is a great product, just there is little till nothing to find in the wiki or Google, ... Asking in the list was also never answered. The best product is worthless, if you cannot document it!! I know that documentation is the last thing to do. Even my lawyer in the school told me, if you want to save money, ask for two set copies of a manual included to the machine. 95% of technical companies will fail to give you that IN TIME, and there you can than deduct for each day!!! Often I think, why somebody does not make a screen shoot of all he has developed and attach it, so that we can guess more what the product can do. Again for ASTCC (obviously I fight with that one right now ;-) ) e.g., I cannot find anything for USERS and SIP/IAX friends, 1.5 cents bye Ronald As I have told others before. This list is a valuable resource even for those of us who know a lot about asterisk already. The users who would rather come here than do any work on their own become pollution to this list. They are the repetitive spam that has no benefit to the ones receiving it. This type of behavior has run many of the gurus off of this list. They are unlikely to be replaced. BTW, telling a user they haven't done the prerequisite home work before asking a question is no where near pummelling. Pummelling would be calling them names and making personal attacks. Life is full of venues where you need to meet specific criteria before you are considered worthy of interacting. All that to lay the ground work to say that when we send a user back out to the search engines to do their homework, we do so as a jealous protecting of this forum and what value we receive from it. -- Ronald Wiplinger (CEO of ELMIT) http://www.elmit.com+886 (0) 939--77-55-16 or FWD 511208 - I'm a SpamCon Foundation Member, #694, Verify it at http://www.spamcon.org PS: Spam prevention! Our system is protected with a spam prevention program. If you send us an e-mail, our system will send you a confirmation message back. Just reply to this confirmation message please. After receiving this confirmation message, our system will send the hold message (one) and all future messages (after the received confirmation message) to me without asking you again. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
Title: Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! Look. Lets make it simple. In most cases, if a guru is bored or not interested in a noob question they just ignore it. Personally, I find myself answering some of these specifically because I am not a guru and not quite a noob anymore either. The majority of those that dump what are essentually dumb questions here do so because they know no better. They are new at *, sometimes new at Linux, and most of all new to the list. Doesn't offend me, I just send them a "google site:lists.digium.com some word" email and explain why they are getting ignored. Everyone in this current thread has a good point. Yes, people really should RTFM but maybe it is not in everyones interest to rag them about it. We can use better ways of communication without trying to send a negative vibe to the new guys. Yes, people who know no better should be given some slack and taught and "shaped" into good questioner, list users, and hopefully contributors. Regardless, taking offense in any situation like this is counter productive. Gurus, keep on doing your thing. Answer those you find worthy and ignore those that didn't study Asterisk 101. Or if you want to help out even the most mundane of questioners, then more power to you. Then, if your voice is heard, it is only when you are doing something positive to help out another and help out the Asterisk community. Why speak up at all if it is a waste of your time? Everyone else, make it a point to give direction to the noobs so they know where to start out. Consider it Asterisk boot camp and we all get to train a complete * virgin or two. Direct them to the starting point and tell them the rules of the game. My guess is that the majority of us on this list are not people who have been involved since the inception of Asterisk. Most of us got a start with a rudimentary understanding and the desire to be part of the open source community, not to mention save some bucks. That means most of us asked a dumb question or two. Personally, I have gotten the snide reply before when I asked a dumb question. Also I have gotten some wonderful advice and direction when I asked the right question and showed I put forth a real effort. That taught me the way this works and I adhere to it now. Lets teach them the same. You don't have to throw the noobs a bone if you don't want to but remember that you are shaping the next generation of Asterisk users and hopefully the next group who will carry Asterisk to even more people. You patience nets us one more person who is on the Asterisk wagon and that is a good thing. That is just my $0.02. Please don't flame me. There is no point to this kind ofangst on the list. It is a waste of email when we should all realize that participation is voluntary. Best regards to all, Wiley From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Ronald WiplingerSent: Thu 3/3/2005 9:46 PMTo: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial DiscussionSubject: Re: [OT] - [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! Steven Critchfield wrote:On Thu, 2005-03-03 at 17:59 -0700, Paul Fielding wrote:- Original Message -Look, don't answer lame questions if you don't want to. Flaming a newbfor being a newb is just mean. (they will eventually RTFM or STFW orthey will fail). This is the way of the open source community.Here Here, I'm with you. I find it a constant source of amazement how, inall the various lists I've followed, people find it necessary to beat on thenew guy. Even the 'if you don't want to get flamed then do some researchfirst' attitude i'm not a fan of. Sometimes newbies are also newbies to theconcept of lists, etc, as well as the topic of the list.Frankly, I agree. If you don't like the question, feel it's lame or dumb,or don't like that someone hasn't done their research, then delete themessage. If you think they're wasting your time by writing a message, thendon't waste any more of your own time by responding to it. I find thepummelling of newbies more annoying than the newbie question itself.Sometimes it is not the "if" you make a search, often is for new comers"what" to aks for.If you do not know the specific term, than you need to ask somewhere,and I think the list is good for that.To point to the 'wiki' or 'Google' in general often does not makesense!!! Just be silent than, if you do not know a better hint!!!If I get a reply to my question "Look at the wiki" or "Have you searchedit on Google" is for me just a time waster!!If the answer is, look up "xxx" "yyy" than it makes more sense to me!!!The term RTFM is not always a good hint either! Sometimes the rightanswer, even it is the 100th times is better (maybe even shorter) than acomment like that!Besides the documentation of * and add-ons are either changing o
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
Arrgh, Why should I answer a Newbie question, they are thick! Why is it so difficult to just ignore any question with Newbie in it? Everyone has to start somewhere. At least the newbie found the list. The worse you can do is kick sand in their face. No newbie's means no new customers or developers who might be able to contribute. This list is owned by no one. When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they last thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house. Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their car out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive past. Race The Tryant Vanderdecken ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 11:01 -0500, Race Vanderdecken wrote: This list is owned by no one. Actually it is owned by Digium. It has many contributers though. When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they last thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house. Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their car out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive past. As a person who spent 9 hours in traffic last winter just to drive 15 miles due to idiots who should have just stayed home, I think your analogy breaks down. At some point, you either need to learn to drive or you pay someone else to transport you or your stuff. Same applies to computer work, either you can do the work yourself or you pay someone else to do it. Even your snow driver analogy works here, you either get yourself out of the ditch or you pay someone to do it for you. The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't even interested in getting out to help push. -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 11:01 -0500, Race Vanderdecken wrote: Why is it so difficult to just ignore any question with Newbie in it? Because if nobody reads their questions they won't get any answers, and until you read the question you don't know if it is an idiot question. Everyone has to start somewhere. At least the newbie found the list. Questions like I have ISDN lines do I need an interface card? are known as closed questions, they _only_ have 2 possible answers yes or no. Newbiness is not an excuse for asking inane questions. The worse you can do is kick sand in their face. I can think of many worse things, in the worst case you could give them a lesson in comparatives and superlatives. This list is owned by no one. Absolutely agree, that neither you nor I or any one else who has responded with the same views own the list. -- Dave Cotton [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
On March 2, 2005 11:27 am, Steven Critchfield wrote: As a person who spent 9 hours in traffic last winter just to drive 15 miles due to idiots who should have just stayed home, I think your analogy breaks down. At some point, you either need to learn to drive or you pay someone else to transport you or your stuff. Same applies to computer work, either you can do the work yourself or you pay someone else to do it. Even your snow driver analogy works here, you either get yourself out of the ditch or you pay someone to do it for you. The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't even interested in getting out to help push. /me cheers I could not have said it better myself. This needs to go in the FRONT PAGE of the Wiki and the archive link needs to be put in the topic of #asterisk. Hell Olle's weekly newbie reminder email needs this put in it, too. AMEN, brother, AMEN!!! -A. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
If some one would like to show me the site that explains how to setup a mailing list then I will create a Newbie list for asterisk and voip questions and answers. I am only asking for someone to show me the site and maybe a few pointers on how to start it up. Only because I don't have the time or experience to do it quickely enough to get the newbies off the list. And I am a bit slow with apache and web type sutff, as you can tell by my website codetyrant.com. I will personally pay for the hosting of the list. It is not that I am tired or will ever grow tired of passing out fish and giving fishing lessons it is just I don't have the good fortune to be adept at web interfaces. Also, suggestions for the domain name would be welcomed. Race The Tyrant Vanderdecken In the Land of the Blind, the One-eyed man is Elvis..., copyright RPV 1997. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steven Critchfield Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:28 AM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question,therethick! On Wed, 2005-03-02 at 11:01 -0500, Race Vanderdecken wrote: This list is owned by no one. Actually it is owned by Digium. It has many contributers though. When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they last thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house. Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their car out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive past. As a person who spent 9 hours in traffic last winter just to drive 15 miles due to idiots who should have just stayed home, I think your analogy breaks down. At some point, you either need to learn to drive or you pay someone else to transport you or your stuff. Same applies to computer work, either you can do the work yourself or you pay someone else to do it. Even your snow driver analogy works here, you either get yourself out of the ditch or you pay someone to do it for you. The payment is not always monetary. Sometimes the payment is just a showing of sufficient effort. Back to your snow driver analogy, if the driver in the ditch is just waiting in the car for you to come over and push them out without even attempting anything on their own, you would be less inclined to bother. You would be even less inclined to continue exerting your own effort if the driver was not cooperating or wasn't even interested in getting out to help push. -- Steven Critchfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [Asterisk-Users] Why should I answer a Newbie question, therethick!
On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 11:01:38 -0500, Race Vanderdecken [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When someone drives off the road into a ditch in a snow storm they last thing they need is someone telling them they should have invested in snow chains and defensive driving lessons before leaving the house. Newbies need help getting out of the ditch so traffic can continue to flow and the rubber neckers can be abated. If you are not willing to pull off to the side of the road and help the fool by pushing their car out of the ditch you have no right to give him the finger as you drive past. I've come to realize, as both a past and present newbie on several projects, there are those that will drive by and give you the finger regardless of how much effort you expend, and there are those that will stop and help even if you've done nothing for yourself. People are still people on lists, and there are those that are helpful, and those that aren't. As a newbie, if you just have some thick-ish skin, try to do you homework, and expect to be flamed, I think you'd be happier. I know I am ;) gs -- I have some G-Mail invites. Let me know if you want one. ___ Asterisk-Users mailing list Asterisk-Users@lists.digium.com http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
