Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-15 Thread Matt Riddell
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Steve Totaro wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Steve Totaro <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Steve Underwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Vinícius Fontes wrote:
 When people release software under the GPL license, like Steve Underwood
>>> did with libunicall, spandsp and so on, they were supposed to know that
>>> other people has the right to use their code.
>>> The problem is that almost any licence term which tries to limit the
>>> obnoxious behaviour of other people has too many unpleasant side
>>> effects. GPL 2.0 is the best compromise I've found, so that is what I
>>> used for everything unless recently. To make my stuff licence compatible
>>> with FreeSwitch I recently relicenced most of my work as LGPL 2.1. This
>>> is having undesirable consequences, though. Its really a tough issue,
>>> and GPL 2.0 showed immense foresight in just accepting the non-existence
>>> of perfect solutions. GPL 3 seems to have forgotten the lesson somewhat.
>>>
>>> Most of the time I just want to give up producing anything at all.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>> So are you angry that he may gain monetarily from your your work, or is it
>> hurt pride that he is basically taking credit for it?
>>
>> The answer to that should guide you in how you release your work in the
>> future.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Steve Totaro
>>
>>
> I also want to add that if someone asked me to name the top five names that
> came to mind when thinking of Asterisk, Jim Dixon, Mark Spencer, Steve
> Underwood, Nicolas Gudino, and I will leave off the fifth as to not leave
> anybody out ;)

Me, me, me!

:D

Or, Kevin, Russell, Olle, Josh, Critch (although he's been pretty quiet
lately), I guess the list goes on.

- --
Kind Regards,

Matt Riddell
Director
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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-13 Thread Lee Howard
Matt Watson wrote:
> I'd probably be a little pissed if I were Steve Underwood if somebody
> pocketed over 10k $USD for taking credit for a product that my free library
> did the bulk of the work for.

I can't speak for Steve at all, but any major contributor to an 
open-source project faces this, so maybe my comments can be helpful in 
understanding at least how *I* feel on this matter.

As an open-source contributor I have tried to make it very clear to 
those who choose to use my contributions that *no* thanks or other 
expressions of gratitude are required or expected.  I have already 
received my just reward; I make sure of that before I even undertake the 
development process.  Certainly a thanks here or there is welcome and 
heart-warming.  And best of all is when someone else chooses to help in 
the development process.  But none of that is expected or required.

I've worked for (and received) a bounty before, but in that case I did 
not release the code until after the bounty was received or in the hands 
of an escrow agent.  As T.38 gateway development for Asterisk was worth 
so very much more than US$10K, I can't help but believe that Steve's 
motivation was from elsewhere, and that he did not necessarily have his 
sights on that goal.

However, if it was *me* who had put up that bounty I would double-check 
that the claimant actually did the work before I paid out... and I would 
divide up the bounty payment accordingly if it was not all done by that 
person.

Thanks,

Lee.

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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Tilghman Lesher
On Thursday 10 July 2008 18:48:15 Rob Hillis wrote:
> Matt Watson wrote:
> > That being said... i;m also quite pleased to see T.38 support being
> > worked on for Asterisk... its a pretty important area to further
> > develop IMHO.
>
> I absolutely agree.  It's been a notable omission for some time.
> Unfortunately getting it written isn't the major part of the battle.
> Due to the license incompatibilities between SpanDSP and Asterisk, this
> work is almost guaranteed /not/ to make it into the base Asterisk souce.
> (from what I recall, the problem is that Steve won't sign the disclaimer
> Digium requires for work to make it in to Asterisk - and I hasten to add
> that I don't blame him, given that if he did, his GPL work would end up
> as part of a fully commercial version of Asterisk!)

Actually, what has motivated this recent change is that Steve has released
SpanDSP under the LGPL, which is fully compatible with the Digium license.
So while his insistence on the GPL has previously kept it out of the core
Asterisk distribution, his recent change in licensing is what will make
putting it into Asterisk possible.

> Therefore, the /real/ battle is keeping the code maintained so that it
> will continue to work with Asterisk.

Not anymore, unless he returns to the GPL license.  And even then, the
version that he released as LGPL can still be independently maintained.

-- 
Tilghman

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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Rob Hillis
Matt Watson wrote:
> That being said... i;m also quite pleased to see T.38 support being 
> worked on for Asterisk... its a pretty important area to further 
> develop IMHO.

I absolutely agree.  It's been a notable omission for some time.  
Unfortunately getting it written isn't the major part of the battle.  
Due to the license incompatibilities between SpanDSP and Asterisk, this 
work is almost guaranteed /not/ to make it into the base Asterisk souce. 
(from what I recall, the problem is that Steve won't sign the disclaimer 
Digium requires for work to make it in to Asterisk - and I hasten to add 
that I don't blame him, given that if he did, his GPL work would end up 
as part of a fully commercial version of Asterisk!)

Therefore, the /real/ battle is keeping the code maintained so that it 
will continue to work with Asterisk.

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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread marek cervenka
> marek cervenka wrote:
>> hi,
>>
>> there is T.38 fax gateway for asterisk
>> http://bugs.digium.com/view.php?id=12931
>>
>> please test it and report bugs
>>
>> for people from
>> http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+T.38+Bounty
>> if you still want donate t.38 development please contact me at cervajs at
>> fpf.slu.cz
>>
> And you will, of course, pass on 99% of the money to those who did 99%
> of the work, won't you? :-)

if you want, it's no problem (sponsors please CC: steveu at coppice.org)

but by now nobody respond ... (surprisingly)
contract for primary developer(dafe) is exhausted. that's the reason for 
bounty request

SpanDSP is good piece of software and BIG credit goes to you Steve
thanks!

---
Marek Cervenka
===


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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Matt Watson
I'd probably be a little pissed if I were Steve Underwood if somebody
pocketed over 10k $USD for taking credit for a product that my free library
did the bulk of the work for.

I don;t think i'd feel that the entire bounty should be mine - after all
there would of been nothing stopping me from doing it myself... but credit
should be given where credit is due.   Even if its just something as a sign
of appreciation.

Given that spandsp is GPL'd Steve obviously never intended to make a ton of
money off of it... but I;m sure he'd love to receive something for his work,
or use some of that money to further develop spandsp.

That being said... i;m also quite pleased to see T.38 support being worked
on for Asterisk... its a pretty important area to further develop IMHO.

--
Matt Watson
http://www.mattgwatson.ca


On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Steve Totaro <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Steve Totaro <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Steve Underwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Vinícius Fontes wrote:
>>> > When people release software under the GPL license, like Steve
>>> Underwood did with libunicall, spandsp and so on, they were supposed to know
>>> that other people has the right to use their code.
>>> >
>>> The problem is that almost any licence term which tries to limit the
>>> obnoxious behaviour of other people has too many unpleasant side
>>> effects. GPL 2.0 is the best compromise I've found, so that is what I
>>> used for everything unless recently. To make my stuff licence compatible
>>> with FreeSwitch I recently relicenced most of my work as LGPL 2.1. This
>>> is having undesirable consequences, though. Its really a tough issue,
>>> and GPL 2.0 showed immense foresight in just accepting the non-existence
>>> of perfect solutions. GPL 3 seems to have forgotten the lesson somewhat.
>>>
>>> Most of the time I just want to give up producing anything at all.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>
>> So are you angry that he may gain monetarily from your your work, or is it
>> hurt pride that he is basically taking credit for it?
>>
>> The answer to that should guide you in how you release your work in the
>> future.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Steve Totaro
>>
>>
> I also want to add that if someone asked me to name the top five names that
> came to mind when thinking of Asterisk, Jim Dixon, Mark Spencer, Steve
> Underwood, Nicolas Gudino, and I will leave off the fifth as to not leave
> anybody out ;)
>
> Thanks,
> Steve
>
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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Steve Totaro
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Steve Totaro <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Steve Underwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
>> Vinícius Fontes wrote:
>> > When people release software under the GPL license, like Steve Underwood
>> did with libunicall, spandsp and so on, they were supposed to know that
>> other people has the right to use their code.
>> >
>> The problem is that almost any licence term which tries to limit the
>> obnoxious behaviour of other people has too many unpleasant side
>> effects. GPL 2.0 is the best compromise I've found, so that is what I
>> used for everything unless recently. To make my stuff licence compatible
>> with FreeSwitch I recently relicenced most of my work as LGPL 2.1. This
>> is having undesirable consequences, though. Its really a tough issue,
>> and GPL 2.0 showed immense foresight in just accepting the non-existence
>> of perfect solutions. GPL 3 seems to have forgotten the lesson somewhat.
>>
>> Most of the time I just want to give up producing anything at all.
>>
>> Steve
>>
>
> So are you angry that he may gain monetarily from your your work, or is it
> hurt pride that he is basically taking credit for it?
>
> The answer to that should guide you in how you release your work in the
> future.
>
> Thanks,
> Steve Totaro
>
>
I also want to add that if someone asked me to name the top five names that
came to mind when thinking of Asterisk, Jim Dixon, Mark Spencer, Steve
Underwood, Nicolas Gudino, and I will leave off the fifth as to not leave
anybody out ;)

Thanks,
Steve
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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Steve Totaro
On Thu, Jul 10, 2008 at 10:24 AM, Steve Underwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Vinícius Fontes wrote:
> > When people release software under the GPL license, like Steve Underwood
> did with libunicall, spandsp and so on, they were supposed to know that
> other people has the right to use their code.
> >
> The problem is that almost any licence term which tries to limit the
> obnoxious behaviour of other people has too many unpleasant side
> effects. GPL 2.0 is the best compromise I've found, so that is what I
> used for everything unless recently. To make my stuff licence compatible
> with FreeSwitch I recently relicenced most of my work as LGPL 2.1. This
> is having undesirable consequences, though. Its really a tough issue,
> and GPL 2.0 showed immense foresight in just accepting the non-existence
> of perfect solutions. GPL 3 seems to have forgotten the lesson somewhat.
>
> Most of the time I just want to give up producing anything at all.
>
> Steve
>

So are you angry that he may gain monetarily from your your work, or is it
hurt pride that he is basically taking credit for it?

The answer to that should guide you in how you release your work in the
future.

Thanks,
Steve Totaro
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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Steve Underwood
Vinícius Fontes wrote:
> When people release software under the GPL license, like Steve Underwood did 
> with libunicall, spandsp and so on, they were supposed to know that other 
> people has the right to use their code.
>   
The problem is that almost any licence term which tries to limit the 
obnoxious behaviour of other people has too many unpleasant side 
effects. GPL 2.0 is the best compromise I've found, so that is what I 
used for everything unless recently. To make my stuff licence compatible 
with FreeSwitch I recently relicenced most of my work as LGPL 2.1. This 
is having undesirable consequences, though. Its really a tough issue, 
and GPL 2.0 showed immense foresight in just accepting the non-existence 
of perfect solutions. GPL 3 seems to have forgotten the lesson somewhat.

Most of the time I just want to give up producing anything at all.

Steve


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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Steve Underwood
Hi Mark,

I have no issue with people using something in new and interesting ways. 
Adding a small wrapper around a large library, and asking for a bounty 
is in a rather different category from that.

At least this is honest work. You should see some of the sleazy ways 
people have made money from my code.

In the present case, there is no real issue. I think only one entry on 
that T.38 bounty page was ever going to pay anything, anyway.

Regards,
Steve


Mark Hamilton wrote:
> I agree. In that case people who use includes in their scripts for 
> which they got paid should pay a portion of their pay to the writer of 
> each include they use.
>
>
>
>  Original Message 
>     Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway
> From: Rob Hillis <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.org>
> Date: Thu, July 10, 2008 8:52 am
> To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial
> Discussion<[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>.com>
>
> Steve Underwood wrote:
> > marek cervenka wrote:
> >
> >> hi,
> >>
> >> there is T.38 fax gateway for asterisk
> >> http://bugs.digium.com/view.php?id=12931
> >>
> >> please test it and report bugs
> >>
> >> for people from
> >> http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+T.38+Bounty
> >> if you still want donate t.38 development please contact me at
> cervajs at
> >> fpf.slu.cz <http://fpf.slu.cz>
> >>
> >>
> > And you will, of course, pass on 99% of the money to those who
> did 99%
> > of the work, won't you? :-)
> >
> > This is the problem with bounties. They favour those who easily
> string
> > together existing functionality, rather than those who do the heavy
> > lifting. I know several of bounties that have been paid to
> people who
> > wrote just a few lines of code to string together some of the
> > functionality I provided.
> >
>
> Undoubtedly I will get myself flamed for suggesting this, but
> perhaps it
> may pay for you to be a little more attentive to the bounties that
> are
> on offer. The bounty offered may utilise a lot of your code, but a
> library without an interface (be it a user interface or a technical
> interface) is just a blob of code.
>
> If developing the end user code doesn't interest you, that's fine
> - but
> don't take it out on people who take your work that extra step to
> make
> it do what someone else is willing to offer money for.
>


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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Vinícius Fontes
When people release software under the GPL license, like Steve Underwood did 
with libunicall, spandsp and so on, they were supposed to know that other 
people has the right to use their code.

Atenciosamente,

Vinícius Fontes
Núcleo de Tecnologias Convergentes
Canall Tecnologia em Comunicações
Passo Fundo - RS - Brasil
+55 54 2104-7000
 
Convergent Technologies Core
Canall Tecnologia em Comunicações
Passo Fundo - RS - Brazil
+55 54 2104-7000

- "Mark Hamilton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escreveu:

> I agree. In that case people who use includes in their scripts for
> which they got paid should pay a portion of their pay to the writer of
> each include they use.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Original Message ----
> Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway
> From: Rob Hillis < [EMAIL PROTECTED] .org>
> Date: Thu, July 10, 2008 8:52 am
> To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial
> Discussion< [EMAIL PROTECTED] .com>
> 
> Steve Underwood wrote:
> > marek cervenka wrote:
> >
> >> hi,
> >>
> >> there is T.38 fax gateway for asterisk
> >> http://bugs.digium.com/view.php?id=12931
> >>
> >> please test it and report bugs
> >>
> >> for people from
> >> http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+T.38+Bounty
> >> if you still want donate t.38 development please contact me at
> cervajs at
> >> fpf.slu.cz
> >>
> >>
> > And you will, of course, pass on 99% of the money to those who did
> 99%
> > of the work, won't you? :-)
> >
> > This is the problem with bounties. They favour those who easily
> string
> > together existing functionality, rather than those who do the heavy
> > lifting. I know several of bounties that have been paid to people
> who
> > wrote just a few lines of code to string together some of the
> > functionality I provided.
> >
> 
> Undoubtedly I will get myself flamed for suggesting this, but perhaps
> it
> may pay for you to be a little more attentive to the bounties that are
> on offer. The bounty offered may utilise a lot of your code, but a
> library without an interface (be it a user interface or a technical
> interface) is just a blob of code.
> 
> If developing the end user code doesn't interest you, that's fine -
> but
> don't take it out on people who take your work that extra step to make
> it do what someone else is willing to offer money for.
> 
> 
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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Mark Hamilton
I agree. In that case people who use includes in their scripts for which they got paid should pay a portion of their pay to the writer of each include they use. 

 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway
From: Rob Hillis <[EMAIL PROTECTED].org>
Date: Thu, July 10, 2008 8:52 am
To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial
Discussion<[EMAIL PROTECTED].com>

Steve Underwood wrote:
> marek cervenka wrote:
>   
>> hi,
>>
>> there is T.38 fax gateway for asterisk
>> http://bugs.digium.com/view.php?id=12931
>>
>> please test it and report bugs
>>
>> for people from
>> http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+T.38+Bounty
>> if you still want donate t.38 development please contact me at cervajs at 
>> fpf.slu.cz
>>   
>> 
> And you will, of course, pass on 99% of the money to those who did 99% 
> of the work, won't you? :-)
>
> This is the problem with bounties. They favour those who easily string 
> together existing functionality, rather than those who do the heavy 
> lifting. I know several of bounties that have been paid to people who 
> wrote just a few lines of code to string together some of the 
> functionality I provided.
>   

Undoubtedly I will get myself flamed for suggesting this, but perhaps it 
may pay for you to be a little more attentive to the bounties that are 
on offer.  The bounty offered may utilise a lot of your code, but a 
library without an interface (be it a user interface or a technical 
interface) is just a blob of code.

If developing the end user code doesn't interest you, that's fine - but 
don't take it out on people who take your work that extra step to make 
it do what someone else is willing to offer money for.


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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Rob Hillis
Steve Underwood wrote:
> marek cervenka wrote:
>   
>> hi,
>>
>> there is T.38 fax gateway for asterisk
>> http://bugs.digium.com/view.php?id=12931
>>
>> please test it and report bugs
>>
>> for people from
>> http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+T.38+Bounty
>> if you still want donate t.38 development please contact me at cervajs at 
>> fpf.slu.cz
>>   
>> 
> And you will, of course, pass on 99% of the money to those who did 99% 
> of the work, won't you? :-)
>
> This is the problem with bounties. They favour those who easily string 
> together existing functionality, rather than those who do the heavy 
> lifting. I know several of bounties that have been paid to people who 
> wrote just a few lines of code to string together some of the 
> functionality I provided.
>   

Undoubtedly I will get myself flamed for suggesting this, but perhaps it 
may pay for you to be a little more attentive to the bounties that are 
on offer.  The bounty offered may utilise a lot of your code, but a 
library without an interface (be it a user interface or a technical 
interface) is just a blob of code.

If developing the end user code doesn't interest you, that's fine - but 
don't take it out on people who take your work that extra step to make 
it do what someone else is willing to offer money for.


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Re: [asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-10 Thread Steve Underwood
marek cervenka wrote:
> hi,
>
> there is T.38 fax gateway for asterisk
> http://bugs.digium.com/view.php?id=12931
>
> please test it and report bugs
>
> for people from
> http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+T.38+Bounty
> if you still want donate t.38 development please contact me at cervajs at 
> fpf.slu.cz
>   
And you will, of course, pass on 99% of the money to those who did 99% 
of the work, won't you? :-)

This is the problem with bounties. They favour those who easily string 
together existing functionality, rather than those who do the heavy 
lifting. I know several of bounties that have been paid to people who 
wrote just a few lines of code to string together some of the 
functionality I provided.

Steve


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[asterisk-users] (announce) asterisk T.38 gateway

2008-07-08 Thread marek cervenka
hi,

there is T.38 fax gateway for asterisk
http://bugs.digium.com/view.php?id=12931

please test it and report bugs

for people from
http://www.voip-info.org/wiki-Asterisk+T.38+Bounty
if you still want donate t.38 development please contact me at cervajs at 
fpf.slu.cz

---
Marek Cervenka
===


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