Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Sunday 20 May 2007 11:36 am, Jon Pounder wrote: how many cable feet were you ever able to actually get various speeds at ? Depended on the hardware and wire gauge. I was able to do 1250kbps symmetrical on a 4kmish loop very reliably. around here it might just be the geography but I think load coils are really just a well talked about myth. There are no truly long haul lines due to the number of cities so close together and the lakes blocking what would be any longer haul lines. Load coils are no myth, at least in rural Ontario (Canada) -- I've had to have them removed on more than one occasion. -A. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, 11 May 2007, Alex Balashov wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, John Treble said something to this effect: Can you still do ?homebrew? PTP T1 in the U.S. this way? I thought this was nixed by the ILEC/CLECs years ago. It's logically possible. But if you're trying to do T1 over a single pair, you'd have to break it out using HDSL/PairGain sort of line equipment, since you obviously can't install field repeaters or do any span conditioning yourself. From then on it's a crapshoot and really just depends on whether the copper is of quality, distance, specifications, etc. that can support the specification. There's no way for them to nix that, really, other than possibly keeping load coils or other constraining stuff on the facilities that tends to need to be removed for various high-speed data line / private line applications. Most telcos have long since done wholesale load coil removal sweeps (qwest did it many years ago) in preparation for dsl and other highspeed data services. -Dan___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, 11 May 2007, Jon Pounder wrote: again, I'm interested to know anyone whose actually done this, and what the results were, since I have been thinking of the same thing for a while. Yep, did it for about 10 years straight :) both ADSL and SDSL. Most reliable service I've ever had from a telco. Our T1s, T3s, POTS etc would take a dump but our dry copper links would stay up! Never ran into load coils, just length issues. Because the connection runs from the customer to the CO and then to you. So one or both ends better be close to the CO (in this case the ISP I worked for was one block away from the CO). -Dan ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 11 May 2007, Jon Pounder wrote: again, I'm interested to know anyone whose actually done this, and what the results were, since I have been thinking of the same thing for a while. Yep, did it for about 10 years straight :) both ADSL and SDSL. Most reliable service I've ever had from a telco. Our T1s, T3s, POTS etc would take a dump but our dry copper links would stay up! Never ran into load coils, just length issues. Because the connection runs from the customer to the CO and then to you. So one or both ends better be close to the CO (in this case the ISP I worked for was one block away from the CO). how many cable feet were you ever able to actually get various speeds at ? around here it might just be the geography but I think load coils are really just a well talked about myth. There are no truly long haul lines due to the number of cities so close together and the lakes blocking what would be any longer haul lines. The trend also seems to be just drop in a chunk of fibre and park a dms switch right near any sizable new development and not feed it from the CO at all. This is something else I have been wondering about - these telco dms shelters are fed off mains power, and probably have batteries of some sort, but I am wondering how they fare in long term outages. For example our t1's are fed direct from a larger CO with generators etc. - never had a problem in the big blackout a few years ago, how long do these remotes stay up by comparison ? A related question is now with these remotes is dry copper even really physically possible even within the same city ? Another interesting observation, the cable tv utility in the same area has NG generators at every neighbourhood pop where they hop off fibre to coax (every 250 or so houses), yet on the longer wire runs they have pole mounted Alpha amplifiers fed off the utility power. Seems like the same sort of mentality, if you're not right close in, watch out if the power's off. -Dan ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Sun, 20 May 2007, Jon Pounder said something to this effect: The trend also seems to be just drop in a chunk of fibre and park a dms switch right near any sizable new development and not feed it from the CO at all. Big Class 5 switches like DMSs do not live in remote terminals of the sort you're describing. Those are invariably CO switches, and their capacity scales far beyond serving a mere outlying area. That's like using a fire hydrant to feed a small garden hose. What they do put in remote terminals are DLCs with GR.303 trunks for backhauling customer POTS interfaces directly into a CO switch logically. DSLAMs are also often remote. These shelters are fed off mains power but typically have extensive battery plant surrounding them, and in some cases generators depending on the size of the installation and the likelyhood of an outage. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On 5/13/07, Jon Pounder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: what exactly was the charge ? - trespass - no its public land for the most part this stuff is on so that doesn't apply - vandalism/mischief - if no other customer was impacted I don't see how this charge would stick since there is no measurable damages. - theft of service ? Going rate for dry copper is under $20/month/pr so to get up into the 5-10k level that might justify a higher level theft charge with jail time that would take some time to add up. Stealing cable TV/satellite probably works out to about 3x the monthly rate of dry copper and I have never heard of anyone being told anything more than disconnect it when they get caught. Trespass -- the cross-boxes belong to the telco, not you. The telco did not grant you access to their cross-box, now did they? If you think they did, ask yourself if they would give you that in writing? I The other issue is what crime would be involved in assisting the telco to deliver a better level of service by doing work yourself ? None, but keep in mind that trespass (access to proptery thats not yours and you have not specifically been grated access to) and theft of service are crimes. Fixing something is not a justification. If someone kills your friend and your state has the death penalty its not legal to do that yourself, there are channels through which things need to be dealt with. For example I often do as much work on their side of the demarc as possible when I have an order pending, then I know its done the way I would have wanted it. I have never got anything other than a thank you when the installer shows up and I just tell them where to make the final connection. Technically the demarc is telco property but it is placed on your property. Unless its an MDU or something thats fair game. The other issue that hasn't even been touched in this thread is how easy it is to just tap someone's line when everything is so exposed like this. The tap might get found, but if it was a line powered radio transmitter, chances of tracing back to the installer are minimal unless someone saw it get installed. Well how easy is it to kill someone? With a gun all you need is a little force on the trigger. Does it make it right? ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Am Freitag, den 11.05.2007, 18:44 -0400 schrieb Jon Pounder: just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. I know a setup where some kind of cable hijacking took place. A small office nearby had a regular ISDN/BRI line, with a small PBX and two or three analogue phones on it locally. One of the PBX extensions was connected to another telco copper pair (small houses usually have between 2 and about 16 pairs into the basement, depending on when the cable was laid), which led back to the Telco and came out at the office chief's home second copper pair, 30 meters away, other side of the street. I have been told that his predecessor had a son working for the then-German (in the 80s) Post office ;-) Pityfully this solution disappeared when a truck ran down the telco switchbox while reversing, must have been in 2002 or 2003. Just disconnected that 1 meter tall grey cupboard from the ground, leaving lots of cables dangling and while recabling, they (telco) obviously did not care to reconnect that special local exchange. The solution was to buy a DECT repeater and wireless handset, works like a charm in this situation. I have to admit I did not research this in full, but I assume that tampering with the Post property would have given you a night in jail - or left you without a job or pension plan, in this case, if you were caught. With deregulation, this probably softened a bit. Nowadays my impression is that the repair technicians are out-sourced service guys with a too-tight schedule - do not touch anything that is not necessary to be touched, because that might take time to be fixed or cost reimbursements or whatever. Documentation of cabling is existant (well, we are in Germany, after all): as it seems, it has been filed in a basement cupboard, locked, in an unused toilet room, guarded by wild dogs... at least service people tend to not have access to line whereabouts documentation, and no intention to ask too much questions. If the installation works, they just let it be. BTW this reminded me of these two BOFH episodes: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/02/25/bofh_2005_episode_7/ http://www.theregister.co.uk/2000/11/13/bofh_lights_out_for_contractors/ BR Anselm ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Jon Pounder wrote: Quoting Stephen Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: C F wrote: Stephen i disagree. growing up in new work city i can say its quite easy to get away with it in the city. where i live now in new jersey (population of around 6) i wouldnt be able to pull that off. The world is a big place, and I suppose there's room for all kinds. In these parts, the vigilance is pretty high. The pillars are padlocked now; they didn't use to be, and the COs are locked down like Fort Knox. Anyway, I know enough more than one person who has landed in the clink for treating the telco like a personal lab. what exactly was the charge ? Perhaps something along the lines of unauthorised tampering with a telecomms installation? /Per Jessen, Zürich -- ENIDAN Technologies GmbH - managed email security. Starting at SFr1/month/user - http://www.spamchek.ch/ ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Per Jessen wrote: Perhaps something along the lines of unauthorised tampering with a telecomms installation? More likely conspiracy to aid terrorists by destroying the infrastructure. -- Chris Mason (264) 497-5670 Fax: (264) 497-8463 Int: (305) 704-7249 Fax: (815)301-9759 UK 44.207.183.0271 Cell: 264-235-5670 Yahoo IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Per Jessen wrote: Jon Pounder wrote: Quoting Stephen Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: C F wrote: Stephen i disagree. growing up in new work city i can say its quite easy to get away with it in the city. where i live now in new jersey (population of around 6) i wouldnt be able to pull that off. The world is a big place, and I suppose there's room for all kinds. In these parts, the vigilance is pretty high. The pillars are padlocked now; they didn't use to be, and the COs are locked down like Fort Knox. Anyway, I know enough more than one person who has landed in the clink for treating the telco like a personal lab. what exactly was the charge ? Perhaps something along the lines of unauthorised tampering with a telecomms installation? I wasn't going to bother replying to Jon's post, because, well, some things aren't worth the bother. But here it is, for the public good. First, there's section 326 of the Criminal Code of Canada: Theft of telecommunication service 326. (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently, maliciously, or without colour of right, (a) abstracts, consumes or uses electricity or gas or causes it to be wasted or diverted; or (b) uses any telecommunication facility or obtains any telecommunication service. Then, there's section 334: Punishment for theft 334. Except where otherwise provided by law, every one who commits theft (a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, where the property stolen is a testamentary instrument or the value of what is stolen exceeds five thousand dollars; or (b) is guilty (i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or (ii) of an offence punishable on summary conviction, where the value of what is stolen does not exceed five thousand dollars. The person in question was slapped with a $10,000 fine. Look, these guys take tampering with wire infrastructure seriously. There's a reason the addresses aren't published, the buildings non-descript, and the doors locked nine ways to Sunday. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Stephen Bosch wrote: Per Jessen wrote: Jon Pounder wrote: Quoting Stephen Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: C F wrote: Stephen i disagree. growing up in new work city i can say its quite easy to get away with it in the city. where i live now in new jersey (population of around 6) i wouldnt be able to pull that off. The world is a big place, and I suppose there's room for all kinds. In these parts, the vigilance is pretty high. The pillars are padlocked now; they didn't use to be, and the COs are locked down like Fort Knox. Anyway, I know enough more than one person who has landed in the clink for treating the telco like a personal lab. what exactly was the charge ? Perhaps something along the lines of unauthorised tampering with a telecomms installation? I wasn't going to bother replying to Jon's post, because, well, some things aren't worth the bother. But here it is, for the public good. First, there's section 326 of the Criminal Code of Canada: Theft of telecommunication service 326. (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently, maliciously, or without colour of right, (a) abstracts, consumes or uses electricity or gas or causes it to be wasted or diverted; or (b) uses any telecommunication facility or obtains any telecommunication service. Then, there's section 334: Punishment for theft 334. Except where otherwise provided by law, every one who commits theft (a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, where the property stolen is a testamentary instrument or the value of what is stolen exceeds five thousand dollars; or (b) is guilty (i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or (ii) of an offence punishable on summary conviction, where the value of what is stolen does not exceed five thousand dollars. The person in question was slapped with a $10,000 fine. Look, these guys take tampering with wire infrastructure seriously. There's a reason the addresses aren't published, the buildings non-descript, and the doors locked nine ways to Sunday. I will add that utility lines usually have easements for the public and private land they run across. I signed easements for the overhead power line, the buried telco cable and the wiring pedestal. They run about 650 feet on my private driveway. They are on my property but climbing the poles, excavating near the cable or opening the pedestal are forms of trespass. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Stephen i disagree. growing up in new work city i can say its quite easy to get away with it in the city. where i live now in new jersey (population of around 6) i wouldnt be able to pull that off. The world is a big place, and I suppose there's room for all kinds. In these parts, the vigilance is pretty high. The pillars are padlocked now; they didn't use to be, and the COs are locked down like Fort Knox. Anyway, I know enough more than one person who has landed in the clink for treating the telco like a personal lab. what exactly was the charge ? Perhaps something along the lines of unauthorised tampering with a telecomms installation? I wasn't going to bother replying to Jon's post, because, well, some things aren't worth the bother. But here it is, for the public good. First, there's section 326 of the Criminal Code of Canada: Theft of telecommunication service 326. (1) Every one commits theft who fraudulently, maliciously, or without colour of right, (a) abstracts, consumes or uses electricity or gas or causes it to be wasted or diverted; or (b) uses any telecommunication facility or obtains any telecommunication service. Then, there's section 334: Punishment for theft 334. Except where otherwise provided by law, every one who commits theft (a) is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years, where the property stolen is a testamentary instrument or the value of what is stolen exceeds five thousand dollars; or (b) is guilty (i) of an indictable offence and is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or (ii) of an offence punishable on summary conviction, where the value of what is stolen does not exceed five thousand dollars. The person in question was slapped with a $10,000 fine. Look, these guys take tampering with wire infrastructure seriously. There's a reason the addresses aren't published, the buildings non-descript, and the doors locked nine ways to Sunday. In the neighborhood where I live in Putnam County NY, Verizon recently posted a sign for a $50,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of individuals responsible for tampering with their infrastructure. Apparently, someone had repeatedly hacked the same piece of equipment (don't know what it was - they wouldn't say). I don't know what the criminal codes say, but it is obviously an offense for which you can be arrested, and Verizon felt it was important enough to give away a sizeable sum to defend their equipment and access to their network. - Noah ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Quoting Stephen Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: C F wrote: Stephen i disagree. growing up in new work city i can say its quite easy to get away with it in the city. where i live now in new jersey (population of around 6) i wouldnt be able to pull that off. The world is a big place, and I suppose there's room for all kinds. In these parts, the vigilance is pretty high. The pillars are padlocked now; they didn't use to be, and the COs are locked down like Fort Knox. Anyway, I know enough more than one person who has landed in the clink for treating the telco like a personal lab. what exactly was the charge ? - trespass - no its public land for the most part this stuff is on so that doesn't apply - vandalism/mischief - if no other customer was impacted I don't see how this charge would stick since there is no measurable damages. - theft of service ? Going rate for dry copper is under $20/month/pr so to get up into the 5-10k level that might justify a higher level theft charge with jail time that would take some time to add up. Stealing cable TV/satellite probably works out to about 3x the monthly rate of dry copper and I have never heard of anyone being told anything more than disconnect it when they get caught. I am not trying at all to justify the moral aspect of theft, I am just making a point that I have never heard of anyone even getting in trouble, let alone jail. The other issue is what crime would be involved in assisting the telco to deliver a better level of service by doing work yourself ? For example I often do as much work on their side of the demarc as possible when I have an order pending, then I know its done the way I would have wanted it. I have never got anything other than a thank you when the installer shows up and I just tell them where to make the final connection. Here is another what if - we had an adsl service in Mississauga at one point that would never quite work properly, finally got the answer - the line has a bridge tap on it somewhere but we won't remove it. WTF ? they contract to supply a service, now have an explanation why its substandard yet won't fix it ? The point became moot as we cancelled the service eventually, but say I had stuck my tone generator on it, and walked back down the road to the CO and poked around till I found the bridge tap and removed it. What would they charge me with ? I'm only helping them fulfil a contractural obligation they don't seem to want to meet. The way it ended was they preferred to lose the account entirely rather than fix a problem they knew about. The other issue that hasn't even been touched in this thread is how easy it is to just tap someone's line when everything is so exposed like this. The tap might get found, but if it was a line powered radio transmitter, chances of tracing back to the installer are minimal unless someone saw it get installed. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Jon Pounder wrote: Who said I wanted to run DSL over it :) no one - I'm sure you really just want to run 110baud modem over it :) and I'm sure you probably don't want a handful of them between the same 2 locations either. btw - here is an interesting strategy to get fibre or something better than you have at low cost, find out how many analog lines are available on the street in front of you, place an order for N+1 lines. Wait for the installation to happen, then cancel the lines after paying for a month. Depending how saturated the area is, this can be a cheap way to force an upgrade and either get your analog lines delivered on t1 or get fibre to the building etc. You know what happens when you try that? The carrier sticks you with the cost of the upgrade. Try that with Telus and they will happily hand you a bill for the new fibre run. The carriers aren't stupid; besides, what's your alternative? There isn't one. All the low-hanging fruit has been upgraded already. They know this. (Calgary Metro has lots and lots of fibre running every which way, and there's usually half a dozen ways to provision a location; but woe is you if you're in an industrial park out in the sticks.) What's more -- with the cost of those n+1 lines (even for a month), you're usually just better off making a requisition for fibre and paying the drop charge. What's more likely to happen is that they'll just refuse to fulfill your order. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Alex Balashov wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, John Treble said something to this effect: Can you still do “homebrew” PTP T1 in the U.S. this way? I thought this was nixed by the ILEC/CLECs years ago. It's logically possible. But if you're trying to do T1 over a single pair, you'd have to break it out using HDSL/PairGain sort of line equipment, since you obviously can't install field repeaters or do any span conditioning yourself. From then on it's a crapshoot and really just depends on whether the copper is of quality, distance, specifications, etc. that can support the specification. There's no way for them to nix that, really, other than possibly keeping load coils or other constraining stuff on the facilities that tends to need to be removed for various high-speed data line / private line applications. The copper is so decrepit in so many places that it's really questionable whether this is even worth considering. There are just too many variables outside your control. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Andrew Kohlsmith wrote: On Friday 11 May 2007 5:45 pm, Jon Pounder wrote: again, I'm interested to know anyone whose actually done this, and what the results were, since I have been thinking of the same thing for a while. I'd run about two dozen of these things using a variety of equipment. Pairgain SDSL modems (300S), Flowpoint 2200s, Speedstream something-or-others... hell we even used the flowpoints and speedstreams with an SDSL DSLAM. It works reasonably well in-town, and gets you around a megabit to two, depending on distance. lowest speed I did was about 384kbps, and highest was 2048. All these rates are symmetrical, BTW. In Canada you ask for either a Class A signal channel or a dry pair, depending on whether you are talking to the voice or data guys. You need to get in good with the local tech, too, because if there *ARE* coils, Bell will NOT remove them for you, on the record. The voice circuits have an identifier starting with TVCSNA, and the data circuits CCLADA. It shocks me to hear that Bell will even accommodate the dry pair request in the first place. The earlier comments are on the mark -- you spend so much time and effort trying to track down someone who has even the slightest clue, it makes you wonder if it's worth it at all. God forbid you should have a problem with the pair once it's in, up and running. If that happens, you'd better have friends on the inside. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Sat, 12 May 2007, Stephen Bosch said something to this effect: The copper is so decrepit in so many places that it's really questionable whether this is even worth considering. There are just too many variables outside your control. That was my general impression as well. My suggestion that it is possible was driven by an appeal to the purely speculative. And of all the things that might tolerate a variety of flaws in the medium, T1 -- four-wire or HDSL -- just isn't one of them, either. -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Jon Pounder wrote: On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. Jon: Is Thorold rural? You wouldn't get away with this for ten minutes in an urban CO. I don't fancy spending the night in jail. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Jon Pounder wrote: On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. Jon: Is Thorold rural? You wouldn't get away with this for ten minutes in an urban CO. I don't fancy spending the night in jail. -Stephen- In some places a night in jail is getting off real easy. Try 3 months in jail and then $multi thousands as a fine, and if you were acting on behalf of a corporation, then $millions as a fine. It is not misdemeanor issues, it is criminal. T ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Jon Pounder wrote: that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. At least in Bellsouth/Louisiana they do not guarantee that the circuit will pass DC voltage. Since it is an alarm circuit I believe they only guarantee that it will pass short/open. If the circuit goes between COs then I there is no reason for them to pass DC voltage. If it is within the same CO then there is no reason I can think of that it would not pass DC voltage, except of course to prevent people from using xDSL tech on the line. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Quoting Stephen Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jon Pounder wrote: On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. Jon: Is Thorold rural? You wouldn't get away with this for ten minutes in an urban CO. I don't fancy spending the night in jail. it not a big city, but its not the middle of nowhere either. The local CO here is actually the last hop on the fibre trunks from Canada to the US for the Toronto area, fence around it has the gate open 24x7, so its not just the local loops that they don't really care enough to protect. I have seen techs find things they didn't agree with or think should be somewhere and just shrug their shoulders - if its not a reported problem they don't want to be the one that touches something and breaks it if its really supposed to be there. A lot of the techs are subcontracted by the job, they don't get paid to make improvements, they get paid to do installations and go on repair calls, so if its not on their work order they just don't care. Here is an example, I order lines in batches of 1 or 2 at a time to my location, every time an installer comes they put another 2pr aerial cable from my pole to the pole across the street. I have plenty of underground capacity I put in myself out to my pole. Everytime I say, hey why not just consolidate things in a properly sized aerial cable or just bury it ? No, can't do that, all I can do is install yet another cable (there are about 10 up there now, and it looks like hell). I have even got the response, well if you want to clean it up you could just do it and no one would care. If that's not a direct invitation to work on the telco outside plant yourself - what is ? -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Quoting Eric \ManxPower\ Wieling [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jon Pounder wrote: that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. At least in Bellsouth/Louisiana they do not guarantee that the circuit will pass DC voltage. Since it is an alarm circuit I believe they only guarantee that it will pass short/open. how can you pass a short/open without passing dc ? alarm circuits are normally an always on low speed modem that I have ever seen in practice - I know back in the stone age there was such a thing as you describe, but I don't think its been in use since at least the 70's or 80's. The alarm application wouldn't have to pass dc, just ac, BUT if it doesn't pass DC its not dry copper its probably what is being referred to as the class A channel which is just an end to end connection for audio but no dialtone. ie its possible to pass a modem signal on either type, but the channel might do FX by being aggregated to fibre, etc as a 64k channel between COs but the dry copper could never be done that way. If the circuit goes between COs then I there is no reason for them to pass DC voltage. If it is within the same CO then there is no reason I can think of that it would not pass DC voltage, except of course to prevent people from using xDSL tech on the line. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Quoting Stephen Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jon Pounder wrote: On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. Jon: Is Thorold rural? You wouldn't get away with this for ten minutes in an urban CO. I don't fancy spending the night in jail. it not a big city, but its not the middle of nowhere either. The local CO here is actually the last hop on the fibre trunks from Canada to the US for the Toronto area, fence around it has the gate open 24x7, so its not just the local loops that they don't really care enough to protect. I have seen techs find things they didn't agree with or think should be somewhere and just shrug their shoulders - if its not a reported problem they don't want to be the one that touches something and breaks it if its really supposed to be there. A lot of the techs are subcontracted by the job, they don't get paid to make improvements, they get paid to do installations and go on repair calls, so if its not on their work order they just don't care. Here is an example, I order lines in batches of 1 or 2 at a time to my location, every time an installer comes they put another 2pr aerial cable from my pole to the pole across the street. I have plenty of underground capacity I put in myself out to my pole. Everytime I say, hey why not just consolidate things in a properly sized aerial cable or just bury it ? No, can't do that, all I can do is install yet another cable (there are about 10 up there now, and it looks like hell). I have even got the response, well if you want to clean it up you could just do it and no one would care. If that's not a direct invitation to work on the telco outside plant yourself - what is ? Uh-huh, so... say, leaving my car unlocked while it is sitting in my driveway is directly invitation to someone to take it? The exchange and all their feeder sites, rims, pillars, etc... are the property of the telco, at the very least working on them without explicit authority is a breech of the tresspass laws and it goes up from there. You will probably find that they (the telco) will take the point of view that (and you can confirm this with any lawyer you like) their failure to prosecute every instance of tresspass does not imply permission to enter. In todays socio/political climate, telco infrastructure is seen as foundational, and an essential service that is vital in times of emergency. Any unauthorised modification can present an unacceptable risk exposure to the telco, the emergency services, and to the public in general. This said, the telcos may not be providing the best security (and in some cases their security is non-existent) however this does not mean that an unauthorised person is entitle to make changes, or even enter the site. Any argument to the contrary is somewhat shortsighted, dont you think? Or is your failure to lock your front door, a direct invitation to the next person that walks down the sidewalk to help themselves to the contents of your fridge? It could be argued that some of this thread constitutes a solicitation to commit a crime, or perhaps coersion of the same. In the US, it wouldnt surprise me if tresspass into a telco pillar would get the full force of homeland security down on you, and as you are probably aware, at the point that the word terrorism is used, it is possible for what we commonly understand as the burden of proof to be reversed. My advise:
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Eric ManxPower Wieling wrote: Jon Pounder wrote: that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. At least in Bellsouth/Louisiana they do not guarantee that the circuit will pass DC voltage. Since it is an alarm circuit I believe they only guarantee that it will pass short/open. If the circuit goes between COs then I there is no reason for them to pass DC voltage. If it is within the same CO then there is no reason I can think of that it would not pass DC voltage, except of course to prevent people from using xDSL tech on the line. A little history for the youngsters: I remember when I was 7(that would be 1959), there were several false alarms sent from the fire alarm box on the nearby street corner. I watched the process of resetting the alarm box. It was much like rewinding a clock. They swept up the pieces of broken glass on the sidewalk and then installed a new glass pane in the alarm box. The basic operation was that you pulled a handle down which broke through the glass pane and triggered an unwinding of the clock spring mechanism. That mechanism was basically a telegraph pulse sender. I was standing close enough when they tested the box to hear the soft growl of a spring driven motor and the clicking of the telegraph switch. I don't know what the sending rate was for those devices. Whatever it was, compare it to the bit rates we can now get over the same dry pair. I think back then there were very few people who would believe that 40 years later(1999) over a megabit per second would be common. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Stephen i disagree. growing up in new work city i can say its quite easy to get away with it in the city. where i live now in new jersey (population of around 6) i wouldnt be able to pull that off. On 5/12/07, Stephen Bosch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon Pounder wrote: On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. Jon: Is Thorold rural? You wouldn't get away with this for ten minutes in an urban CO. I don't fancy spending the night in jail. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In todays socio/political climate, telco infrastructure is seen as foundational, and an essential service that is vital in times of emergency. Any unauthorised modification can present an unacceptable risk exposure to the telco, the emergency services, and to the public in general. This said, the telcos may not be providing the best security (and in some cases their security is non-existent) however this does not mean that an unauthorised person is entitle to make changes, or even enter the site. In these parts, security has only gotten tighter with time. Pillars are padlocked, and the vigilance is way up. Increased population and free access to information on the Internet has made everything more vulnerable, and Telus, anyway, is not ignorant of this. Stuff I did as a teenager (don't tell my mother) I couldn't hope to get away with now, and at my age, I was just curious doesn't cut it as an excuse any longer. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
C F wrote: Stephen i disagree. growing up in new work city i can say its quite easy to get away with it in the city. where i live now in new jersey (population of around 6) i wouldnt be able to pull that off. The world is a big place, and I suppose there's room for all kinds. In these parts, the vigilance is pretty high. The pillars are padlocked now; they didn't use to be, and the COs are locked down like Fort Knox. Anyway, I know enough more than one person who has landed in the clink for treating the telco like a personal lab. -Stephen- ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
[asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 02:36:46PM -0400, Matt wrote: Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it Yeah; that's called F U pricing. Why would they want to sell you *that*? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
You might be able to try ordering it from a CLEC that can provision it over UNE and sell it for considerably less. Depending on your area, their interconnection agreement, tariffs, etc. So, your mileage may vary. On Fri, 11 May 2007, Matt said something to this effect: Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it around here (Canada) its a tariffed service and I think its about $16 or $18 for the whole thing (both ends). you just have to spend $200 of time on the phone to find someone who knows what you are talking about first. its also referred to as DVACS up here but that's really what's on it, not the pair itself. There may also be some magic used to aggregate the low speed serial channels into a single TDM higher speed circuit. if you are planning on running your own g.hdsl or something like that, I'd love to hear how many cable feet you have and what sort of results you get if you finally get something hooked up. around here you are pretty much limited to adsl, single pair hdsl delivering T1, or analog lines, no more isdn bri's, none of the fancier dsl variations. Other than that you can experiment with dry copper, or try to get fibre if its available. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Let me see. Dry pair, $40 for the circuit. Hardware for each end, $0. Not paying verizon for DSL or PTP T-1 service? Priceless. It's a BANA circuit, btw, in Verizon territory. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:12 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair You might be able to try ordering it from a CLEC that can provision it over UNE and sell it for considerably less. Depending on your area, their interconnection agreement, tariffs, etc. So, your mileage may vary. On Fri, 11 May 2007, Matt said something to this effect: Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Yeah tried that. The CLEC said that one end of the line has to end on their equipment. On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You might be able to try ordering it from a CLEC that can provision it over UNE and sell it for considerably less. Depending on your area, their interconnection agreement, tariffs, etc. So, your mileage may vary. On Fri, 11 May 2007, Matt said something to this effect: Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Who said I wanted to run DSL over it :) On 5/11/07, Smith, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me see. Dry pair, $40 for the circuit. Hardware for each end, $0. Not paying verizon for DSL or PTP T-1 service? Priceless. It's a BANA circuit, btw, in Verizon territory. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:12 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair You might be able to try ordering it from a CLEC that can provision it over UNE and sell it for considerably less. Depending on your area, their interconnection agreement, tariffs, etc. So, your mileage may vary. On Fri, 11 May 2007, Matt said something to this effect: Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
How far is the run? I'm wondering what you mean by $0 for hardware? I typically use Ethernet extenders, but it has been a crapshoot on the quality from Verizon. What is a BANA circuit? Finding someone who will even sell it to you has been somewhat of a game as well. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Smith, Rick Sent: Fri 5/11/2007 3:39 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair Let me see. Dry pair, $40 for the circuit. Hardware for each end, $0. Not paying verizon for DSL or PTP T-1 service? Priceless. It's a BANA circuit, btw, in Verizon territory. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:12 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair You might be able to try ordering it from a CLEC that can provision it over UNE and sell it for considerably less. Depending on your area, their interconnection agreement, tariffs, etc. So, your mileage may vary. On Fri, 11 May 2007, Matt said something to this effect: Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users winmail.dat___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Who said I wanted to run DSL over it :) no one - I'm sure you really just want to run 110baud modem over it :) and I'm sure you probably don't want a handful of them between the same 2 locations either. btw - here is an interesting strategy to get fibre or something better than you have at low cost, find out how many analog lines are available on the street in front of you, place an order for N+1 lines. Wait for the installation to happen, then cancel the lines after paying for a month. Depending how saturated the area is, this can be a cheap way to force an upgrade and either get your analog lines delivered on t1 or get fibre to the building etc. On 5/11/07, Smith, Rick [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let me see. Dry pair, $40 for the circuit. Hardware for each end, $0. Not paying verizon for DSL or PTP T-1 service? Priceless. It's a BANA circuit, btw, in Verizon territory. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Alex Balashov Sent: Friday, May 11, 2007 3:12 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair You might be able to try ordering it from a CLEC that can provision it over UNE and sell it for considerably less. Depending on your area, their interconnection agreement, tariffs, etc. So, your mileage may vary. On Fri, 11 May 2007, Matt said something to this effect: Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Matt et al, Can you still do homebrew PTP T1 in the U.S. this way? I thought this was nixed by the ILEC/CLECs years ago. John Treble Ottawa, Canada From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: May 11, 2007 2:37 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, 11 May 2007, John Treble said something to this effect: Can you still do homebrew PTP T1 in the U.S. this way? I thought this was nixed by the ILEC/CLECs years ago. It's logically possible. But if you're trying to do T1 over a single pair, you'd have to break it out using HDSL/PairGain sort of line equipment, since you obviously can't install field repeaters or do any span conditioning yourself. From then on it's a crapshoot and really just depends on whether the copper is of quality, distance, specifications, etc. that can support the specification. There's no way for them to nix that, really, other than possibly keeping load coils or other constraining stuff on the facilities that tends to need to be removed for various high-speed data line / private line applications. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED]___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
RE: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, 11 May 2007, John Treble said something to this effect: Can you still do homebrew PTP T1 in the U.S. this way? I thought this was nixed by the ILEC/CLECs years ago. It's logically possible. But if you're trying to do T1 over a single pair, you'd have to break it out using HDSL/PairGain sort of line equipment, since you obviously can't install field repeaters or do any span conditioning yourself. From what I know about it - even with the hdsl you are only going to get it to work at full speed over about 1 cable ft, then you need a repeater of some sort - if it was just a raw T1, you're not going to get anywhere near the 1 ft to start with. the dry copper is a cheap install since they DON'T do the line conditioning - remove load coils, etc, but if your reach was only 1ft to start with you're not likely to have load coils etc anyway, and if the line is that bad where its got grounds or shorts you would be within your rights to demand that be fixed even for dry copper. The question is really can you get dry copper short enough cable ft to span the locations you need and still work with whatever hardware you want to throw on the ends of it ? as far as the conditioning, you could probably even get 2ft without coils if the CO is halfway in the middle since the coils would be based on the radius from the CO in the first place, but then again is your hardware going to reach that distance and be able to maintain any sort of decent transfer rate ? again, I'm interested to know anyone whose actually done this, and what the results were, since I have been thinking of the same thing for a while. From then on it's a crapshoot and really just depends on whether the copper is of quality, distance, specifications, etc. that can support the specification. There's no way for them to nix that, really, other than possibly keeping load coils or other constraining stuff on the facilities that tends to need to be removed for various high-speed data line / private line applications. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED]___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
So we know, and I know, that a dry copper pair has no load coils, etc. Generally sells for about $20/line.. sometimes less. Is there something that iLEC will sell that has load coils in it? Like say, if I wanted to run voice over it, and didn't care about data? IE.. I know this is VoIP, but say I wanted to put an analog extension someplace.Is there a cheap alternative I could hook between me and the remote location, going analog all the way? On 5/11/07, Jon Pounder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, John Treble said something to this effect: Can you still do homebrew PTP T1 in the U.S. this way? I thought this was nixed by the ILEC/CLECs years ago. It's logically possible. But if you're trying to do T1 over a single pair, you'd have to break it out using HDSL/PairGain sort of line equipment, since you obviously can't install field repeaters or do any span conditioning yourself. From what I know about it - even with the hdsl you are only going to get it to work at full speed over about 1 cable ft, then you need a repeater of some sort - if it was just a raw T1, you're not going to get anywhere near the 1 ft to start with. the dry copper is a cheap install since they DON'T do the line conditioning - remove load coils, etc, but if your reach was only 1ft to start with you're not likely to have load coils etc anyway, and if the line is that bad where its got grounds or shorts you would be within your rights to demand that be fixed even for dry copper. The question is really can you get dry copper short enough cable ft to span the locations you need and still work with whatever hardware you want to throw on the ends of it ? as far as the conditioning, you could probably even get 2ft without coils if the CO is halfway in the middle since the coils would be based on the radius from the CO in the first place, but then again is your hardware going to reach that distance and be able to maintain any sort of decent transfer rate ? again, I'm interested to know anyone whose actually done this, and what the results were, since I have been thinking of the same thing for a while. From then on it's a crapshoot and really just depends on whether the copper is of quality, distance, specifications, etc. that can support the specification. There's no way for them to nix that, really, other than possibly keeping load coils or other constraining stuff on the facilities that tends to need to be removed for various high-speed data line / private line applications. -- Alex -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED]___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, 11 May 2007, Matt said something to this effect: Is there something that iLEC will sell that has load coils in it? Like say, if I wanted to run voice over it, and didn't care about data? I don't know that they'd necessarily sell you anything with load coils *per se*, especially since the general trend is to remove them as xDSL becomes more pervasive, etc. But if you just wanted to run an analog line, there's no reason why you couldn't just put an FXO adaptor on one end and an analog phone on the other in theory. As has been duly noted, actual practice may vary depending on the nature of the analog line, whose physical build you have no real control over. -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On 5/11/07, John Treble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Matt et al, Can you still do homebrew PTP T1 in the U.S. this way? I thought this was nixed by the ILEC/CLECs years ago. Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. John Treble Ottawa, Canada From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matt Sent: May 11, 2007 2:37 PM To: Asterisk Users Mailing List - Non-Commercial Discussion Subject: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair Hi, Does anyone know of a way to get a dry copper pair (also known as an alarm line) from Verizon for less than $20/end? I know we have been able to get them, but they come out to $40/month for a circuit.. and there's no dial-tone over it ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. -- Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ Inline Internet Systems Inc. Thorold, Ontario, Canada Tools to Power Your e-Business Solutions www.inline.net www.ihtml.com www.ihtmlmerchant.com www.opayc.com ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 18:44 -0400, Jon Pounder wrote: On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. Hmmm, I can see cross connecting an F1 to the F2 to your home/business, but you would have to have a friend @ the CO to make anything of use on it right? Someone has to connect it to their frame in the CO, or xconnect it to another F1 out?? If there is a telco with live dialtone on F1 unprovisioned pairs, I would be shocked (or want to move there :) ) ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Friday 11 May 2007 5:45 pm, Jon Pounder wrote: again, I'm interested to know anyone whose actually done this, and what the results were, since I have been thinking of the same thing for a while. I'd run about two dozen of these things using a variety of equipment. Pairgain SDSL modems (300S), Flowpoint 2200s, Speedstream something-or-others... hell we even used the flowpoints and speedstreams with an SDSL DSLAM. It works reasonably well in-town, and gets you around a megabit to two, depending on distance. lowest speed I did was about 384kbps, and highest was 2048. All these rates are symmetrical, BTW. In Canada you ask for either a Class A signal channel or a dry pair, depending on whether you are talking to the voice or data guys. You need to get in good with the local tech, too, because if there *ARE* coils, Bell will NOT remove them for you, on the record. The voice circuits have an identifier starting with TVCSNA, and the data circuits CCLADA. These days though, we just order nekkid DSL and get dialtone but no ability to dial anything but 911, and the line's connected to their DSLAM. -A. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
Quoting Greg Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, 2007-05-11 at 18:44 -0400, Jon Pounder wrote: On 5/11/07, Alex Balashov [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 11 May 2007, C F said something to this effect: Not according to Verizon (in my area anyhow), We tried it and it didn't work. The verizon technician insisted it wasn't real PTP copper and therefore anything but analog voice might/should not work. What is PTP copper? Unless it's an issue of gauge. But as far as I know, it's not. All the standard copper used for POTS can be used for a T1 from a physical point of view, other aspects of conditioning/load coils/etc/etc not withstanding. You are right, but that was not what I meant, in order for one to be able to provision their own T1 over a pair of copper, the line has to allow all traffic over all frequencies pass thru it. Which these lines do not, since they are simply not just one long copper pair simply cross connected. that's what dry copper is supposed to be, just a cross connect between 2 pairs out of the CO. ie not even battery, line test equipment, or anything else hanging off it at the CO. any restriction should be purely a function of the inductance/capacitance of the wire and the connections and nothing else - anything else and you didn't get dry copper in the first place. just out of curiousity - anyone ever hijack pairs and get away with it ? (do your own cross connects on the street and utilize some crossconnect all within one branch of F1 cable out of the CO ?) I've been tempted in the past, and know that at least around here I would probably get away with it for quite some time before anyone actually cared enough to investigate. Hmmm, I can see cross connecting an F1 to the F2 to your home/business, but you would have to have a friend @ the CO to make anything of use on it right? Someone has to connect it to their frame in the CO, or xconnect it to another F1 out?? If there is a telco with live dialtone on F1 unprovisioned pairs, I would be shocked (or want to move there :) ) well actually there is dialtone on the unprovisioned pairs for the most part, but you can only dial repair, the telco office or 911 on them. I am not sure if its all pairs or just pairs that had a line provisioned at one time. ANAC just replys with some error message if you try to determine the phone number of the line. What I am talking about though is if you want to run dsl or some other highspeed type of thing or just an analog pair to a neighbour, or another office in the same neighbourhood, complex etc. All you do is put your tone generator on an empty pair at both locations trace down till you find them in the same F1/F2 box, and jump across them. (no connection to or through the CO, but only possible if both areas are served by the same F1 cable.) Around here at least, the worker who actually gets the work order for an analog install is told the frame port and corresponding F1 pair, and they just find a free F2 pair and use it, so unless they happened to notice the cross connect between 2 F2 pairs, or even noticed it and cared, who would know ? Actually it would probably take some investigation to even tell if its a legitimate bridge tap or the left overs of one or just something that is not supposed to be there at all. In a world of if its not broke don't touch it, it would likely never get touched. Even on a lower level, if you want cable between immediate neighbours, just make a cross connect at the nearest pedestal or overhead box if you both are served from it and have a spare pair in your lateral cables. Here's some food for thought - around here at least where there is buried telco fibre, the splices are done in pedestals that don't even have locks on the doors, just a screen door type latch, might keep a racoon out but that would even be pushing it. The copper is a little more secure, you have to carry a nutdriver to give the latch a quarter turn. I guess if you are resourceful enough to have a nutdriver, they trust you poking around in their boxes. Wear a hardhat and toolbelt with a butt set hanging off it, and you'll easily penetrate the collective :) I've had many a conversation with a telco installer and for the most part if you know what you're talking about they practically invite you to help yourself if you want to poke around, modify your cabling etc., just don't say they told you that or complain if you break it ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users Jon Pounder _/_/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/ _/ _/_/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/ _/_/ _/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/ _/_/_/ _/_/ _/_/_/_/
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Friday 11 May 2007 7:46 pm, Jon Pounder wrote: well actually there is dialtone on the unprovisioned pairs for the most part, but you can only dial repair, the telco office or 911 on them. I am not sure if its all pairs or just pairs that had a line provisioned at one time. ANAC just replys with some error message if you try to determine the phone number of the line. If you're talking about for DSL use (i.e. connecting to a BAS and using resold DSL service) then yeah, there's almost always dialtone and you can only call the numbers listed. Dry copper (two pairs cross-connected at the CO) has nothing on it. No battery, nothing. Loading coils will be present if one of the loops is exceptionally long, but otherwise it's just as if you'd run the copper between the locations yourself. Where I was located (Listowel, Ontario) we seemed to get better speed vs distance compared to the equipment's ratings, but we chalked that up to having heavier gauge wire in the copper plant (small rural town) and thus less losses in the lines, not to mention possibly a lot fewer competing signals in the trunks. What I am talking about though is if you want to run dsl or some other highspeed type of thing or just an analog pair to a neighbour, or another office in the same neighbourhood, complex etc. All you do is put your tone generator on an empty pair at both locations trace down till you find them in the same F1/F2 box, and jump across them. (no connection to or through the CO, but only possible if both areas are served by the same F1 cable.) Around here at least, the worker who Bell was HIGHLY adverse to this, as it played havoc with their planning, at least according to them. We were only able to have them cross-connected at a pedestal in one (early on) loop; all others were REQUIRED to run through the CO, which often added too much distance for us to make it useful. F2 pairs, or even noticed it and cared, who would know ? Actually it would probably take some investigation to even tell if its a legitimate bridge tap or the left overs of one or just something that is not supposed to be there at all. In a world of if its not broke don't touch it, it would likely never get touched. That's the other thing we ran into from time to time: bridge taps. Loops that should have gotten an easy 1.5meg wouldn't sync at all, and eventually the culprit was found to be a 5km tap run off to some new subdivision. -A. ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
Re: [asterisk-users] Dry Copper Pair
On Fri, May 11, 2007 at 07:46:18PM -0400, Jon Pounder wrote: Wear a hardhat and toolbelt with a butt set hanging off it, and you'll easily penetrate the collective :) I've had many a conversation with a telco installer and for the most part if you know what you're talking about they practically invite you to help yourself if you want to poke around, modify your cabling etc., just don't say they told you that or complain if you break it It's really the can-wrench; lots of people have butt-sets these days. A real E-4 doesn't hurt either. And no one wears a hat unless they're on a new-construction site or up a ladder... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth[EMAIL PROTECTED] Designer Baylink RFC 2100 Ashworth AssociatesThe Things I Think'87 e24 St Petersburg FL USA http://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 ___ --Bandwidth and Colocation provided by Easynews.com -- asterisk-users mailing list To UNSUBSCRIBE or update options visit: http://lists.digium.com/mailman/listinfo/asterisk-users
