Re: Organization Use Cases
James Snell wrote: 6. Handle the problem in a non-core extension. I'm inclined to keep our options open on these use-cases being in or out of core. We don't have an extension mechanism yet other than atom:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Certainly Atom format work to date hasn't been framed as getting the evaluation of extensions right. It's might be difficult to add meaningful stuff later when there's no design for adding meaningful stuff today. cheers Bill
Re: Organization Use Cases (was: Re: Format spec vs Protocol spec)
On Feb 2, 2005, at 12:15 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: 1.) A web forum, where one post serves as the root of a collection of other posts. HTML-- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bloggerDev/ Atom 0.3, root posts only-- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bloggerDev/feed/topics.xml Atom 0.3, all messages-- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bloggerDev/feed/msgs.xml Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? Potential solutions that occur to me: 1. Ignore the problem 2. PaceEntriesElement could handle this 3. PaceFeedRecursive could handle this 4. PaceAtomHeadInEntry could handle this 5. PaceAggregationDocument could handle this I honestly can't say which I prefer. Would anyone like to try to put together examples of the solution in #2 through #5 so that we can consider the alternatives? 2.) A Blog w/ comments, where on post serves as the root of a collection of other posts. HTML-- http://www.livejournal.com/users/giant_moose/ Atom 0.3, no indication of comments-- http://www.livejournal.com/users/giant_moose/data/atom Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? Q: Do we have a proposal on something to handle this? I believe there is a proposal for a link rel=comment which would do the job. 3.) A List Status feed, where the only updates consist of one collection replacing another. RSS2 -- http://rss.netflix.com/Top100RSS background info-- http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=a257ba40-b9fd -4cba-959a-2bba6ae917f0 Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? Q: Do we have a proposal for something to handle this? Dare points out that the feed suffers from lack of guids and dates, something that Atom would force them to fix, which would give an aggregator a better chance of doing something useful. -Tim
Re: Organization Use Cases
Tim Bray wrote: On Feb 2, 2005, at 12:15 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: 1.) A web forum, where one post serves as the root of a collection of other posts. HTML-- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bloggerDev/ Atom 0.3, root posts only-- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bloggerDev/feed/topics.xml Atom 0.3, all messages-- http://groups-beta.google.com/group/bloggerDev/feed/msgs.xml Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? By reference, there is wfw:commentrss. That's typing of items/entries by the type of link relation that points to them. That means you're going to have people calling things comments to get the interface to happen. It's nesting. Potential solutions that occur to me: 1. Ignore the problem 2. PaceEntriesElement could handle this 3. PaceFeedRecursive could handle this 4. PaceAtomHeadInEntry could handle this 5. PaceAggregationDocument could handle this I honestly can't say which I prefer. Would anyone like to try to put together examples of the solution in #2 through #5 so that we can consider the alternatives? I will put together examples for all of the alternatives, and I will add one more example: planetsun.org. 2.) A Blog w/ comments, where on post serves as the root of a collection of other posts. HTML-- http://www.livejournal.com/users/giant_moose/ Atom 0.3, no indication of comments-- http://www.livejournal.com/users/giant_moose/data/atom Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? No, but the problem isn't that hard. I wouldn't be surprised if LJ has some private format for this, but I don't know if they do. Q: Do we have a proposal on something to handle this? PaceEntriesElement would do it. I believe there is a proposal for a link rel=comment which would do the job. It wouldn't handle that example. The comments are nested. XML elements nest pretty well. It would handle the first case... but only by reference. You couldn't subscribe to posts with comments. 3.) A List Status feed, where the only updates consist of one collection replacing another. RSS2 -- http://rss.netflix.com/Top100RSS background info-- http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=a257ba40-b9fd -4cba-959a-2bba6ae917f0 Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? Yes. http://npg.nature.com/pdf/newsfeeds.rdf, or there is OPML. Q: Do we have a proposal for something to handle this? Yes, any of the organization Paces would take care of this, other than the ordering problem, which no Pace addresses. Dare points out that the feed suffers from lack of guids and dates, something that Atom would force them to fix, which would give an aggregator a better chance of doing something useful. -Tim Nesting collections would make the situation explicit. Robert Sayre
Re: Organization Use Cases
On 4/2/05 1:54 PM, Robert Sayre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe there is a proposal for a link rel=comment which would do the job. It wouldn't handle that example. The comments are nested. XML elements nest pretty well. It would handle the first case... but only by reference. You couldn't subscribe to posts with comments. I know of at least one blog where the comments are neither hierarchical nor flat ... each comment can be in reply to multiple previous comments. How would you model this in XML? I would use link rel=in-reply-to .../ link rel=in-reply-to .../ link rel=in-reply-to .../ and link rel=has-reply .../ (guessing at the @rel values) e.
Re: Organization Use Cases (was: Re: Format spec vs Protocol spec)
On 4/2/05 1:15 PM, Tim Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3.) A List Status feed, where the only updates consist of one collection replacing another. RSS2 -- http://rss.netflix.com/Top100RSS background info-- http://www.25hoursaday.com/weblog/PermaLink.aspx?guid=a257ba40-b9fd -4cba-959a-2bba6ae917f0 Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? Q: Do we have a proposal for something to handle this? Dare points out that the feed suffers from lack of guids and dates, something that Atom would force them to fix, which would give an aggregator a better chance of doing something useful. -Tim This is not too much unlike how Nature Publishing Group is providing RSS1.0 feeds of table of contents for each issue of their journals. They have one feed URI for each issue, and a 304 redirect on the current issue feed URI. Each article has a unique id. They also have an RSS feed where each item is a link to each of their various journal titles. They could also quite reasonably have a per-title feed where each item is a link to each issue's feed. e.
Re: Organization Use Cases
On Thursday, February 3, 2005, at 07:54 PM, Robert Sayre wrote: 2.) A Blog w/ comments, where on post serves as the root of a collection of other posts. HTML-- http://www.livejournal.com/users/giant_moose/ Atom 0.3, no indication of comments-- http://www.livejournal.com/users/giant_moose/data/atom Q: Has any previous flavor of RSS had a solution for this? No, but the problem isn't that hard. I wouldn't be surprised if LJ has some private format for this, but I don't know if they do. Q: Do we have a proposal on something to handle this? PaceEntriesElement would do it. I believe there is a proposal for a link rel=comment which would do the job. It wouldn't handle that example. The comments are nested. XML elements nest pretty well. It would handle the first case... but only by reference. You couldn't subscribe to posts with comments. I don't see any reason why a feed reader couldn't give you the option of automatically subscribing to the comment feeds that grow off of the posts in a feed and automatically organize those subscriptions hierarchically under the original. Then, if a thread got uninteresting, you could unsubscribe to just that part of it and never have to download that chunk of it again. A slight variation would be to provide a one-click subscription to comments off of the top level, and then automatically subscribe to the threads underneath it--that would require a lot less manual maintenance to avoid overload. If the top level were fully automatic, it would be pretty messy for a high volume site like Slashdot, for example, but a nested comments feed would be worse, since it would be less simple to hack off the uninteresting threads.
Re: Organization Use Cases (was: Re: Format spec vs Protocol spec)
Potential solutions that occur to me: 1. Ignore the problem 2. PaceEntriesElement could handle this 3. PaceFeedRecursive could handle this 4. PaceAtomHeadInEntry could handle this 5. PaceAggregationDocument could handle this I honestly can't say which I prefer. Would anyone like to try to put together examples of the solution in #2 through #5 so that we can consider the alternatives? 6. Handle the problem in a non-core extension. The core Atom syntax does not have to deal with all these cases as long as it does not interfere with someones ability to deal with cases later on. Get version one out the door. Get folks to start implementing it. Start writing up extensions. Get folks to implement those extensions. Figure out which extensions are Really Useful. Add those Really Useful Extensions to the core later. -- - James Snell http://www.snellspace.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
