Re: Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
On Sep 21, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Danny Ayers wrote: On 9/12/05, Bob Wyman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe it doesn't make sense for us to add data-carrying elements to Atom other than atom:content or atom:summary. Atom provides a definition of a collection of entries and it provides the entry format. Frankly, it should stop there. The data payload should be carried in the content element. I believe the ability to include data outside the content is likely to be useful, and may even be essential in some republishing scenarios where additional metadata about the payload is required. But that's not to say the transport-only view of Atom doesn't offer big advantages in the Structured Blogging kind of scenario where the data can be neatly packaged, relatively opaquely to the rest of the entry data. (Atom as SOAP lite?) I agree with Bob rather than Danny, except that I'd advocate making the metadata part of the XHTML content. Using Atom as a rich envelope in this way combines very well with the Microformat approach of retaining structure in XHTML. For the example of lists of information, given earlier, the XOXO microformat is ideal, as it can degrade gracefully for all viewers. Microformat aware viewers can extract the structure, HTML viewers can display it in a clear human readable form, and even plain-text viewers (assuming they have enough nous to strip stuff between ) will have the core content. http://microformats.org http://microformats.org/wiki/xoxo
Re: Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
Bob Wyman wrote: I believe it doesn't make sense for us to add data-carrying elements to Atom other than atom:content or atom:summary. Atom provides a definition of a collection of entries and it provides the entry format. Frankly, it should stop there. The data payload should be carried in the content element. +1. Let's not duplicate the problems with RSS's lack of a clean content model. Content data should always be contained in the atom:content and atom:summary elements period. - James
Re: Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
Is DOAP over Atom [1] an example of the type of solution you are suggesting James? That looks good. But what if I want to annotate an entry with some RDF? In a recent blog [2] I describe a cool bar in Zürich. I mention that I would also like to add to my feed information pertaining to the description. So I would like for example to say that my entry is about a particular bar, give the address of the bar, its geo location perhaps, that it has free wifi, and that it is very friendly. This would allow search engines to index much more structured information about the bar than they otherwise could. This would allow Google Maps for example to give a location to my feedback on their maps. In the DOAP over Atom type solution where the RDF is placed inside the content, there is then no more space to put the entry content itself. So I can either put the text entry into the content or the metadata. Where should the metadata go? Henry Story [1] http://www.codezoo.com/about/doap_over_atom.csp [2] http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/bblfish/20050910 On 10 Sep 2005, at 01:51, James M Snell wrote: Bob Wyman wrote: I’ve written a blog post pointing to a wonderful demo of tools for doing structured publishing in blogs that Joe Reger has put together. Given that Atom has built-in support for handling much more than just the text/HTML that RSS is limited to, I think this should be interesting to the Atom community. http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/09/joe_reger_shows.html What can we do with Atom to make the vision of Structured/Semantic publishing more real? bob wyman There really isn't anything we HAVE to do with Atom to make it suitable for Structured publishing. The format's content model is already more than adequate for this kind of thing. For instance, Joe Reger's software could easily stuff the XML data instances that conform to a logs XML Schema into the atom:content element while including the text description of the log into the atom:summary. The only thing that really needs to happen here is for someone to begin writing the code that makes this happen. - James
Re: Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
* Henry Story [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-09-12 00:05]: In the DOAP over Atom type solution where the RDF is placed inside the content, there is then no more space to put the entry content itself. So I can either put the text entry into the content or the metadata. Where should the metadata go? Hmm. I think it’s not metadata that we’re talking about here, it’s data. The location etc aren’t a description of your weblog entry, they’re a description of a place. So is your article. In other words, your article is “meta”data about the cool bar. So it goes inside the RDF that is the entry’s content. Now, that’s not going to be accessible to clients who don’t know look in the right place in the graph. So you put a copy of the article in your atom:summary, because it summarizes the full thing available in the RDF payload. Does that sound about right? Regards, -- Aristotle Pagaltzis // http://plasmasturm.org/
Re: Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
Henry Story wrote: Is DOAP over Atom [1] an example of the type of solution you are suggesting James? This is exactly what I'm talking about. That looks good. But what if I want to annotate an entry with some RDF? The question is: is the metadata you're wishing to add descriptive of the entry or descriptive of whatever it is you're talking about in the entry? If it's the former, add the namespaced elements directly to the atom:entry and use something like GRDDL to extract the information you need during processing. If it's the later, what you're really talking about is content that belongs in the content element. - James
Re: Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
On 12/9/05 9:00 AM, A. Pagaltzis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Henry Story [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2005-09-12 00:05]: In the DOAP over Atom type solution where the RDF is placed inside the content, there is then no more space to put the entry content itself. So I can either put the text entry into the content or the metadata. Where should the metadata go? Hmm. I think it¹s not metadata that we¹re talking about here, it¹s data. The location etc aren¹t a description of your weblog entry, they¹re a description of a place. So is your article. In other words, your article is ³meta²data about the cool bar. So it goes inside the RDF that is the entry¹s content. I was thinking the opposite. The article goes into content as text/xhtml, and the RDF goes into the entry as extensions. Now, that¹s not going to be accessible to clients who don¹t know look in the right place in the graph. Again, all the RDF extensions won't be accessible to clients that don't know where to look, but the article content will be available, because it's one of the baseline formats. So you put a copy of the article in your atom:summary, because it summarizes the full thing available in the RDF payload. Not if it's a long article, please. e.
Re: Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
Bob Wyman wrote: I’ve written a blog post pointing to a wonderful demo of tools for doing structured publishing in blogs that Joe Reger has put together. Given that Atom has built-in support for handling much more than just the text/HTML that RSS is limited to, I think this should be interesting to the Atom community. http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/09/joe_reger_shows.html What can we do with Atom to make the vision of Structured/Semantic publishing more real? bob wyman There really isn't anything we HAVE to do with Atom to make it suitable for Structured publishing. The format's content model is already more than adequate for this kind of thing. For instance, Joe Reger's software could easily stuff the XML data instances that conform to a logs XML Schema into the atom:content element while including the text description of the log into the atom:summary. The only thing that really needs to happen here is for someone to begin writing the code that makes this happen. - James
Structured Publishing -- Joe Reger shows the way...
Ive written a blog post pointing to a wonderful demo of tools for doing structured publishing in blogs that Joe Reger has put together. Given that Atom has built-in support for handling much more than just the text/HTML that RSS is limited to, I think this should be interesting to the Atom community. http://bobwyman.pubsub.com/main/2005/09/joe_reger_shows.html What can we do with Atom to make the vision of Structured/Semantic publishing more real? bob wyman
