Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup (need reviewers)

[Scott McCarty]

Yup, the plan is to publish next week, just waiting for final comments 
(I gave a two week period). Basically, it's a one way process moving 
from Google docs to Wordpress, so I like to get comments before I move, 
tweak assets/images/links, and publish.



Best Regards

Scott M


On 03/15/2018 10:58 AM, Chris Negus wrote:

Hey Scott,

Are there plans to make that public? I don't want to just repeat the work you 
are doing there, but I would be happy to refer to it.

Also, you make a good point about showcasing other tools like skopeo, buildah, 
and podman. Since we have packages for them in Fedora, I'll suggest trying them 
out as well.

-- Chris


- Original Message -

Chris,

      Just a heads up, there is also an RPM for Origin on Fedora. In
fact, IMHO, it is the easiest way to get a long term "test environment"
up and running per this [1]. That article even explains how to get DNS
working similar to an OCP install which makes it really convenient for
somebody that doesn't have time to hassle around.

The problem with oc cluster up and all of the others is no working DNS,
and no start on boot...


[1]:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VgWYq4RGeWU9eOpiOv9fbTdWB6pFpFlycKJJKTLoo2Y/edit#heading=h.d359y1uuq93r


On 03/14/2018 03:17 PM, Chris Negus wrote:

- Original Message -

Make it public?

Here is a public link:

 
https://docs.google.com/a/redhat.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRJaraa244HAGZIn5xCPSYU85hzFVWRO0II4qAAT1YwBl3vCRA707vfxu5wMJBqVgBVxC2svwX2Xndv/pub

-- Chris Negus
   

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 8:29 PM Chris Negus  wrote:


I have a draft of a write-up for running Kubernetes on Fedora or Fedora
Atomic, using kubeadm, that I'd like to submit to upstream Kubernetes. I
would appreciate people reviewing the document and trying the procedure.

Before publishing, I have a few issues that I need to get through (listed
at the top of the document). Any feedback (especially help with those
issues) would be appreciated:


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9yUkC4nj3V0CCWV18PYimIIwBBB1OGxpuMmyinA62Y/edit#

-- Chris Negus


- Original Message -

On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:

If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
at a lower level too.

That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
resource for manual installation.

Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
"Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
preface.

Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
maybe offer us some help.

My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
primary thing those users need.

I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
"production" is going to install Origin, no?

--
--
Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community
Red Hat OSAS



--

Scott McCarty, RHCA

Technical Product Marketing: Containers

Email: smcca...@redhat.com

Phone: 312-660-3535

Cell: 330-807-1043

Web: http://crunchtools.com

When should you split your application into multiple containers?
http://red.ht/22xKw9i




--

Scott McCarty, RHCA

Technical Product Marketing: Containers

Email: smcca...@redhat.com

Phone: 312-660-3535

Cell: 330-807-1043

Web: http://crunchtools.com

When should you split your application into multiple containers? 
http://red.ht/22xKw9i

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup (need reviewers)

[Chris Negus]

Hey Scott,

Are there plans to make that public? I don't want to just repeat the work you 
are doing there, but I would be happy to refer to it.

Also, you make a good point about showcasing other tools like skopeo, buildah, 
and podman. Since we have packages for them in Fedora, I'll suggest trying them 
out as well.

-- Chris


- Original Message -
> Chris,
> 
>      Just a heads up, there is also an RPM for Origin on Fedora. In
> fact, IMHO, it is the easiest way to get a long term "test environment"
> up and running per this [1]. That article even explains how to get DNS
> working similar to an OCP install which makes it really convenient for
> somebody that doesn't have time to hassle around.
> 
> The problem with oc cluster up and all of the others is no working DNS,
> and no start on boot...
> 
> 
> [1]:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VgWYq4RGeWU9eOpiOv9fbTdWB6pFpFlycKJJKTLoo2Y/edit#heading=h.d359y1uuq93r
> 
> 
> On 03/14/2018 03:17 PM, Chris Negus wrote:
> > - Original Message -
> >> Make it public?
> > Here is a public link:
> >
> > 
> > https://docs.google.com/a/redhat.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRJaraa244HAGZIn5xCPSYU85hzFVWRO0II4qAAT1YwBl3vCRA707vfxu5wMJBqVgBVxC2svwX2Xndv/pub
> >
> > -- Chris Negus
> >   
> >> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 8:29 PM Chris Negus  wrote:
> >>
> >>> I have a draft of a write-up for running Kubernetes on Fedora or Fedora
> >>> Atomic, using kubeadm, that I'd like to submit to upstream Kubernetes. I
> >>> would appreciate people reviewing the document and trying the procedure.
> >>>
> >>> Before publishing, I have a few issues that I need to get through (listed
> >>> at the top of the document). Any feedback (especially help with those
> >>> issues) would be appreciated:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9yUkC4nj3V0CCWV18PYimIIwBBB1OGxpuMmyinA62Y/edit#
> >>>
> >>> -- Chris Negus
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> - Original Message -
>  On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> >>> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> >>> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> >>> at a lower level too.
> >> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
> >> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
> >> resource for manual installation.
> > Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
> > Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
> > doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
> > "Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
> > that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
> > preface.
>  Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
>  most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
>  Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
>  maybe offer us some help.
> 
>  My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
>  that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
>  platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
>  existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
>  primary thing those users need.
> 
>  I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
>  commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
>  not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
>  "production" is going to install Origin, no?
> 
>  --
>  --
>  Josh Berkus
>  Kubernetes Community
>  Red Hat OSAS
> 
> 
> >>>
> 
> --
> 
> Scott McCarty, RHCA
> 
> Technical Product Marketing: Containers
> 
> Email: smcca...@redhat.com
> 
> Phone: 312-660-3535
> 
> Cell: 330-807-1043
> 
> Web: http://crunchtools.com
> 
> When should you split your application into multiple containers?
> http://red.ht/22xKw9i
> 
> 

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup (need reviewers)

[Scott McCarty]

Chris,

    Just a heads up, there is also an RPM for Origin on Fedora. In 
fact, IMHO, it is the easiest way to get a long term "test environment" 
up and running per this [1]. That article even explains how to get DNS 
working similar to an OCP install which makes it really convenient for 
somebody that doesn't have time to hassle around.


The problem with oc cluster up and all of the others is no working DNS, 
and no start on boot...



[1]: 
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1VgWYq4RGeWU9eOpiOv9fbTdWB6pFpFlycKJJKTLoo2Y/edit#heading=h.d359y1uuq93r



On 03/14/2018 03:17 PM, Chris Negus wrote:

- Original Message -

Make it public?

Here is a public link:


https://docs.google.com/a/redhat.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRJaraa244HAGZIn5xCPSYU85hzFVWRO0II4qAAT1YwBl3vCRA707vfxu5wMJBqVgBVxC2svwX2Xndv/pub

-- Chris Negus
  

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 8:29 PM Chris Negus  wrote:


I have a draft of a write-up for running Kubernetes on Fedora or Fedora
Atomic, using kubeadm, that I'd like to submit to upstream Kubernetes. I
would appreciate people reviewing the document and trying the procedure.

Before publishing, I have a few issues that I need to get through (listed
at the top of the document). Any feedback (especially help with those
issues) would be appreciated:


https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9yUkC4nj3V0CCWV18PYimIIwBBB1OGxpuMmyinA62Y/edit#

-- Chris Negus


- Original Message -

On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:

If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
at a lower level too.

That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
resource for manual installation.

Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
"Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
preface.

Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
maybe offer us some help.

My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
primary thing those users need.

I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
"production" is going to install Origin, no?

--
--
Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community
Red Hat OSAS






--

Scott McCarty, RHCA

Technical Product Marketing: Containers

Email: smcca...@redhat.com

Phone: 312-660-3535

Cell: 330-807-1043

Web: http://crunchtools.com

When should you split your application into multiple containers? 
http://red.ht/22xKw9i

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup (need reviewers)

[Chris Negus]

- Original Message -
> Make it public?

Here is a public link:

   
https://docs.google.com/a/redhat.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRJaraa244HAGZIn5xCPSYU85hzFVWRO0II4qAAT1YwBl3vCRA707vfxu5wMJBqVgBVxC2svwX2Xndv/pub

-- Chris Negus
 
> On Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 8:29 PM Chris Negus  wrote:
> 
> > I have a draft of a write-up for running Kubernetes on Fedora or Fedora
> > Atomic, using kubeadm, that I'd like to submit to upstream Kubernetes. I
> > would appreciate people reviewing the document and trying the procedure.
> >
> > Before publishing, I have a few issues that I need to get through (listed
> > at the top of the document). Any feedback (especially help with those
> > issues) would be appreciated:
> >
> >
> > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9yUkC4nj3V0CCWV18PYimIIwBBB1OGxpuMmyinA62Y/edit#
> >
> > -- Chris Negus
> >
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > > On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> > > >>> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> > > >>> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> > > >>> at a lower level too.
> > > >> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
> > > >> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
> > > >> resource for manual installation.
> > > >
> > > > Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
> > > > Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
> > > > doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
> > > > "Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
> > > > that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
> > > > preface.
> > >
> > > Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
> > > most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
> > > Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
> > > maybe offer us some help.
> > >
> > > My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
> > > that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
> > > platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
> > > existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
> > > primary thing those users need.
> > >
> > > I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
> > > commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
> > > not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
> > > "production" is going to install Origin, no?
> > >
> > > --
> > > --
> > > Josh Berkus
> > > Kubernetes Community
> > > Red Hat OSAS
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> 

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup (need reviewers)

[Muayyad AlSadi]

Make it public?

On Wed, Mar 14, 2018, 8:29 PM Chris Negus  wrote:

> I have a draft of a write-up for running Kubernetes on Fedora or Fedora
> Atomic, using kubeadm, that I'd like to submit to upstream Kubernetes. I
> would appreciate people reviewing the document and trying the procedure.
>
> Before publishing, I have a few issues that I need to get through (listed
> at the top of the document). Any feedback (especially help with those
> issues) would be appreciated:
>
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9yUkC4nj3V0CCWV18PYimIIwBBB1OGxpuMmyinA62Y/edit#
>
> -- Chris Negus
>
>
> - Original Message -
> > On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> > >>> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> > >>> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> > >>> at a lower level too.
> > >> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
> > >> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
> > >> resource for manual installation.
> > >
> > > Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
> > > Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
> > > doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
> > > "Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
> > > that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
> > > preface.
> >
> > Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
> > most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
> > Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
> > maybe offer us some help.
> >
> > My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
> > that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
> > platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
> > existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
> > primary thing those users need.
> >
> > I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
> > commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
> > not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
> > "production" is going to install Origin, no?
> >
> > --
> > --
> > Josh Berkus
> > Kubernetes Community
> > Red Hat OSAS
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup (need reviewers)

[Chris Negus]

I have a draft of a write-up for running Kubernetes on Fedora or Fedora Atomic, 
using kubeadm, that I'd like to submit to upstream Kubernetes. I would 
appreciate people reviewing the document and trying the procedure. 

Before publishing, I have a few issues that I need to get through (listed at 
the top of the document). Any feedback (especially help with those issues) 
would be appreciated:

   
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s9yUkC4nj3V0CCWV18PYimIIwBBB1OGxpuMmyinA62Y/edit#

-- Chris Negus


- Original Message -
> On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> >>> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> >>> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> >>> at a lower level too.
> >> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
> >> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
> >> resource for manual installation.
> > 
> > Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
> > Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
> > doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
> > "Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
> > that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
> > preface.
> 
> Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
> most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
> Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
> maybe offer us some help.
> 
> My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
> that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
> platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
> existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
> primary thing those users need.
> 
> I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
> commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
> not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
> "production" is going to install Origin, no?
> 
> --
> --
> Josh Berkus
> Kubernetes Community
> Red Hat OSAS
> 
> 

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Muayyad AlSadi]

> Well actually... the main way I've used these system containers is
> with the ansible scripts at:
> https://github.com/kubernetes/contrib/tree/master/ansible but those
> have been deprecated.
>

You can say that they have been moved to
https://github.com/kubernetes-incubator/kubespray

>

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Chris Negus]

I started writing the content for Kubernetes on Fedora, based on all of your 
comments. Here's the approach I'm taking:

* Documenting kubeadm approach. It seems to work nicely as Jason describes.
* Pointing to minikube as an alternative vanilla Kubernetes setup for Fedora.
* Pointing to minishift, openshift-ansible, "oc cluster up" as alternatives for 
trying Kubernetes via OpenShift
* Demonstrating both Fedora and Fedora Atomic, stressing the value of Atomic 
for deploying containers.

Speak up if you think this is wrong. I'll share the doc once it's a bit more 
solid so everyone can have at it.

Colin, we're cutting the manual Kube setup (using system containers) from RHEL 
docs this coming release. Would it still be of value to showcase an example 
using Kube from system containers for the upstream case?

-- Chris Negus


- Original Message -
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018, at 12:34 PM, Chris Negus wrote:
> 
> > In my mind, this means that someone trying out vanilla Kubernetes will
> > start with some OS outside of the Fedora/RHEL/CentOS ecosystem. My
> > question is, is it okay to let this content die? Or should we encourage
> > some way to still manually use Kubernetes on Fedora (Atomic or not)?
> 
> This is a pretty deep question with a lot of implications and history
> involved.
> Let me start by stating something that's fairly obvious: Kubernetes is pretty
> popular!  There are multiple "distros" of Kubernetes now, including now *two*
> products owned by Red Hat.
> 
> My personal opinion (now) is that we are primarily producing a base operating
> system; we need to
> support these different Kubernetes distributions; as well as non-Kubernetes
> cases.
> Including Kubernetes directly in AH was clearly a historical mistake, one
> that
> we are just finally digging ourselves out from.  Part of the issue here is
> that
> in Atomic we are introducing *two* entirely new ways to deliver software;
> via system containers as well as package layering now.  And Kubernetes could
> be done via both.
> In practice, I think system containers for Kubernetes make a lot of sense
> because
> then you get a natural decoupling of the base OS from your container service;
> they
> live at different cadences.  But it's been a challenge because it's quite
> different
> from all of the other ways to run Kube.
> 
> Kubernetes *also* is an excellent use case for the Fedora "Modularity" effort
> - having
> just one version of Kubernetes included in the "Everything" repository
> doesn't make
> sense when upstream supports multiple.
> The way I would describe this then is that we are providing technology that
> is intended
> to support this use case, and we also need to be participating in issues that
> cross
> the OS/Kubernetes boundary (for example: SELinux policy, host update
> management).
> So I think our current efforts at having system containers for upstream
> Kubernetes maintained by
> "us" are indeed the right approach - we need to ensure the basics work.
> Ideally
> of course we have more people gaining traction/buy-in in the upstream
> Kubernetes community.
> In practice I think a whole lot of that is mostly "non-Atomic" CentOS/RHEL
> using RPMs
> or just plain dropping binaries in /opt - hopefully we can get some of the
> upstream
> community using the technologies we've developed here.  But it's tricky
> because
> we have other Kubernetes distributions like OpenShift which are also a
> primary use case.
> 
> Anyways another important thing here is: we need to *clearly* distinguish the
> "dev/test"
> scenario from the "production" use case.  For the "dev/test" case there's
> minikube/minishift
> as well as `oc cluster up` which I use a lot (and a major bonus of using
> Linux as
> a desktop including Fedora Atomic Workstation is that you can `oc cluster up`
> directly
> on metal and avoid virt overhead).
> 
> 

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Chris Negus]

- Original Message -
> On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> > On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> >>> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> >>> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> >>> at a lower level too.
> >> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
> >> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
> >> resource for manual installation.
> > 
> > Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
> > Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
> > doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
> > "Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
> > that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
> > preface.
> 
> Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
> most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
> Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
> maybe offer us some help.
> 
> My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
> that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
> platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
> existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
> primary thing those users need.
> 
> I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
> commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
> not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
> "production" is going to install Origin, no?

I agree. I thought we should only document upstream Kubernetes on Atomic Host 
as a way to help people wanting to try Kubernetes, check out new features, or 
just learn what it is. Not for production. I also expected that we would 
encourage the use of Origin when they begin thinking about production.

I didn't want Ubuntu to be the only platform with good instructions for someone 
starting out with Kubernetes from kubernetes.io. If we can show them how to use 
Kubernetes on Atomic, it provides the added bonus of them being able to see the 
great features Atomic has as a container platform.

-- Chris Negus

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Josh Berkus]

On 02/23/2018 10:43 AM, Matthew Miller wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
>>> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
>>> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
>>> at a lower level too.
>> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
>> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
>> resource for manual installation.
> 
> Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
> Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
> doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
> "Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
> that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
> preface.

Oh, I was planning to recommend Kubeadm.  Kubeadm is good enough for
most users, these days, and it's actually a good way to test new
Kubernetes releases.  And the Kubeadm team is enthusiastic enough to
maybe offer us some help.

My primary concern with making sure that Kube is available on FAH/CAH is
that I want Kubernetes developers regarding AH as a reasonable target
platform for development.  We also want to make sure not to abandon our
existing AH+Kube users, but presumably installation docs are not the
primary thing those users need.

I wouldn't *mind* having a "the hard way" doc for FAH/CAH, but I can't
commit to putting in the time it would require to write it, since I'm
not sure who the target user for it is.  Someone who wants something
"production" is going to install Origin, no?

-- 
--
Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community
Red Hat OSAS

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Matthew Miller]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16:46AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> > If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> > use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> > at a lower level too.
> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
> resource for manual installation.

Of course -- but what I mean is saying "You wanted to know how to do
Kubernetes on Fedora Atomic Host? Go do Kubernetes the hard way!"
doesn't come off as very friendly to someone who doesn't know that
"Learn  the hard way!" is a somewhat tongue-in-cheek meme. If
that's the best resource and we recommend it, let's recommend it with a
preface.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Chris Negus]

- Original Message -
> On 02/21/2018 05:51 PM, Chris Negus wrote:
> > - Original Message -
> >> Works for me.
> > 
> > Me too. If everyone is in agreement, I'll see what I can do with Jason's
> > suggestions. I don't mind writing and maintaining docs on the
> > Kubernetes.io site, if you all will review it and make sure I'm on the
> > right track. Once I put something together, I'll ask Jason and others to
> > take a look at it.
> 
> I'll help with this.  Find me on kube-docs on slack?

Cool. I think I'll be able to get started on this next week. I'll probably put 
together a shared doc somewhere and we can all work away at it. I'll leave it 
open to anyone here who is interested in contributing. We can address all the 
great issues everyone has raised in that document.

-- Chris Negus

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Jason Brooks]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 10:16 AM, Jason Brooks  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Miller
>  wrote:
>> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:58:01AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
>>> * drop the manual instructions from the site
>>> * tell people who want manual to go read "kubernetes the hard way"
>>
>> I know the reference from the Python programming book (was that the
>> first?), but not everyone will. To someone who doesn't get the
>> reference, I think this will come off as unnecessarily dismissive
>>
>> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
>> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
>> at a lower level too.
>
> That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
> absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
> resource for manual installation.

https://github.com/kelseyhightower/kubernetes-the-hard-way

>
>>
>> --
>> Matthew Miller
>> 
>> Fedora Project Leader

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Jason Brooks]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 3:36 PM, Matthew Miller
 wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:58:01AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
>> * drop the manual instructions from the site
>> * tell people who want manual to go read "kubernetes the hard way"
>
> I know the reference from the Python programming book (was that the
> first?), but not everyone will. To someone who doesn't get the
> reference, I think this will come off as unnecessarily dismissive
>
> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> at a lower level too.

That's totally awesome. Now someone needs to do that work. In the
absence of that person, it's not dismissive to link them to a popular
resource for manual installation.

>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Josh Berkus]

On 02/21/2018 05:51 PM, Chris Negus wrote:
> - Original Message -
>> Works for me.
> 
> Me too. If everyone is in agreement, I'll see what I can do with Jason's 
> suggestions. I don't mind writing and maintaining docs on the Kubernetes.io 
> site, if you all will review it and make sure I'm on the right track. Once I 
> put something together, I'll ask Jason and others to take a look at it.

I'll help with this.  Find me on kube-docs on slack?

-- 
--
Josh Berkus
Kubernetes Community
Red Hat OSAS

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Colin Walters]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018, at 12:34 PM, Chris Negus wrote:

> In my mind, this means that someone trying out vanilla Kubernetes will 
> start with some OS outside of the Fedora/RHEL/CentOS ecosystem. My 
> question is, is it okay to let this content die? Or should we encourage 
> some way to still manually use Kubernetes on Fedora (Atomic or not)?

This is a pretty deep question with a lot of implications and history involved.
Let me start by stating something that's fairly obvious: Kubernetes is pretty
popular!  There are multiple "distros" of Kubernetes now, including now *two*
products owned by Red Hat.

My personal opinion (now) is that we are primarily producing a base operating 
system; we need to
support these different Kubernetes distributions; as well as non-Kubernetes
cases.

Including Kubernetes directly in AH was clearly a historical mistake, one that
we are just finally digging ourselves out from.  Part of the issue here is that
in Atomic we are introducing *two* entirely new ways to deliver software;
via system containers as well as package layering now.  And Kubernetes could
be done via both.

In practice, I think system containers for Kubernetes make a lot of sense 
because
then you get a natural decoupling of the base OS from your container service; 
they
live at different cadences.  But it's been a challenge because it's quite 
different
from all of the other ways to run Kube.

Kubernetes *also* is an excellent use case for the Fedora "Modularity" effort - 
having
just one version of Kubernetes included in the "Everything" repository doesn't 
make
sense when upstream supports multiple.

The way I would describe this then is that we are providing technology that is 
intended
to support this use case, and we also need to be participating in issues that 
cross
the OS/Kubernetes boundary (for example: SELinux policy, host update 
management).
So I think our current efforts at having system containers for upstream 
Kubernetes maintained by
"us" are indeed the right approach - we need to ensure the basics work.  Ideally
of course we have more people gaining traction/buy-in in the upstream 
Kubernetes community.
In practice I think a whole lot of that is mostly "non-Atomic" CentOS/RHEL 
using RPMs
or just plain dropping binaries in /opt - hopefully we can get some of the 
upstream
community using the technologies we've developed here.  But it's tricky because
we have other Kubernetes distributions like OpenShift which are also a primary 
use case.

Anyways another important thing here is: we need to *clearly* distinguish the 
"dev/test"
scenario from the "production" use case.  For the "dev/test" case there's 
minikube/minishift
as well as `oc cluster up` which I use a lot (and a major bonus of using Linux 
as
a desktop including Fedora Atomic Workstation is that you can `oc cluster up` 
directly
on metal and avoid virt overhead).

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Micah Abbott]

In the 'atomic-host-tests' repo[0], we have a test[1] that was based on 
the Red Hat docs[2] for setting up a single node kuberenetes cluster.


We had to adapt the test to work with system containers on Fedora 27 and 
I made a quick and dirty gist[3] of the steps we ended up with.


Having said that, I'm in agreement with others on the thread for 
following the advice from jbrooks on how to move forward.  We can adapt 
the existing test to use 'kubeadm' or write a new test to use that approach.


-Micah

[0] https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-host-tests/
[1] 
https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-host-tests/tree/master/tests/k8-cluster
[2] 
https://access.redhat.com/documentation/en-us/red_hat_enterprise_linux_atomic_host/7/html/getting_started_with_kubernetes/get_started_orchestrating_containers_with_kubernetes

[3] https://gist.github.com/miabbott/549655e4557c7bd9f774f8d45a79cac6

On 02/21/2018 12:34 PM, Chris Negus wrote:

Red Hat has been phasing out support for manually setting up vanilla Kubernetes 
on RHEL and RHEL Atomic. While there are still procedures for setting up 
Kubernetes in Fedora in the Kubernetes.io documentation, the Kubernetes project 
is considering dropping them because they have become outdated:

https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7301
https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7302

In my mind, this means that someone trying out vanilla Kubernetes will start 
with some OS outside of the Fedora/RHEL/CentOS ecosystem. My question is, is it 
okay to let this content die? Or should we encourage some way to still manually 
use Kubernetes on Fedora (Atomic or not)?

-
Chris Negus
Red Hat Principal Technical Writer
RHCA, RHCI, RHCX, RHCE
Author of the Linux Bible, 9th Edition
http://amzn.to/1IBA7NF

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Chris Negus]

- Original Message -
> Works for me.

Me too. If everyone is in agreement, I'll see what I can do with Jason's 
suggestions. I don't mind writing and maintaining docs on the Kubernetes.io 
site, if you all will review it and make sure I'm on the right track. Once I 
put something together, I'll ask Jason and others to take a look at it.

-- Chris Negus

> --
> Thanks,
> Steve Milner
> 
> Atomic | Red Hat | http://projectatomic.io/
> 
> On Feb 21, 2018 1:58 PM, "Jason Brooks"  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Stephen Milner  wrote:
> > On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Chris Negus  wrote:
> >> Red Hat has been phasing out support for manually setting up vanilla
> Kubernetes on RHEL and RHEL Atomic. While there are still procedures for
> setting up Kubernetes in Fedora in the Kubernetes.io documentation, the
> Kubernetes project is considering dropping them because they have become
> outdated:
> >>
> >> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7301
> >> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7302
> >>
> >> In my mind, this means that someone trying out vanilla Kubernetes will
> start with some OS outside of the Fedora/RHEL/CentOS ecosystem. My question
> is, is it okay to let this content die? Or should we encourage some way to
> still manually use Kubernetes on Fedora (Atomic or not)?
> >>
> >> -
> >> Chris Negus
> >> Red Hat Principal Technical Writer
> >> RHCA, RHCI, RHCX, RHCE
> >> Author of the Linux Bible, 9th Edition
> >> http://amzn.to/1IBA7NF
> >
> > Jason Brooks has created a number of system containers for folks to
> > use (source in https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-system-containers/
> ).
> > He has some information in a blog post at:
> >
> > https://www.projectatomic.io/blog/2017/11/migrating-
> kubernetes-on-fedora-atomic-host-27/
> >
> > I think having the content updated to point to or be based on Jason's
> > instructions would be a good replacement.
> 
> Well actually... the main way I've used these system containers is
> with the ansible scripts at:
> https://github.com/kubernetes/contrib/tree/master/ansible but those
> have been deprecated.
> 
> I think we should:
> 
> * drop the manual instructions from the site
> * tell people who want manual to go read "kubernetes the hard way"
> * focus on kubeadm for kubernetes on atomic (see
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jasonbrooks/QA/
> AtomicTests/Install_Kubeadm
> and https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-system-
> containers/tree/master/kubeadm)
> * point to openshift-ansible for people who want a more complicated
> configuration (https://github.com/openshift/openshift-ansible)
> 
> If you'd like to know *all* my thoughts on the matter, I gave a talk
> on this subject at Flock: https://youtu.be/Y703n0emWUg
> 
> >
> >
> > --
> > Thanks,
> > Steve Milner
> >
> > Atomic | Red Hat | http://projectatomic.io/
> >
> 

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Sanja Bonic]

Matt +1. The more comprehensive our docs are, the more visibility we have.

Downside is we need to actually write and maintain these docs.

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 11:36 PM, Matthew Miller 
wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:58:01AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> > * drop the manual instructions from the site
> > * tell people who want manual to go read "kubernetes the hard way"
>
> I know the reference from the Python programming book (was that the
> first?), but not everyone will. To someone who doesn't get the
> reference, I think this will come off as unnecessarily dismissive
>
> If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
> use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
> at a lower level too.
>
> --
> Matthew Miller
> 
> Fedora Project Leader
>
>

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Matthew Miller]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:58:01AM -0800, Jason Brooks wrote:
> * drop the manual instructions from the site
> * tell people who want manual to go read "kubernetes the hard way"

I know the reference from the Python programming book (was that the
first?), but not everyone will. To someone who doesn't get the
reference, I think this will come off as unnecessarily dismissive

If we have a preferred non-manual way, we should encourage people to
use that, but I don't see what we lose from having good documentation
at a lower level too.

-- 
Matthew Miller

Fedora Project Leader

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Stephen Milner]

Works for me.

--
Thanks,
Steve Milner

Atomic | Red Hat | http://projectatomic.io/

On Feb 21, 2018 1:58 PM, "Jason Brooks"  wrote:

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Stephen Milner  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Chris Negus  wrote:
>> Red Hat has been phasing out support for manually setting up vanilla
Kubernetes on RHEL and RHEL Atomic. While there are still procedures for
setting up Kubernetes in Fedora in the Kubernetes.io documentation, the
Kubernetes project is considering dropping them because they have become
outdated:
>>
>> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7301
>> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7302
>>
>> In my mind, this means that someone trying out vanilla Kubernetes will
start with some OS outside of the Fedora/RHEL/CentOS ecosystem. My question
is, is it okay to let this content die? Or should we encourage some way to
still manually use Kubernetes on Fedora (Atomic or not)?
>>
>> -
>> Chris Negus
>> Red Hat Principal Technical Writer
>> RHCA, RHCI, RHCX, RHCE
>> Author of the Linux Bible, 9th Edition
>> http://amzn.to/1IBA7NF
>
> Jason Brooks has created a number of system containers for folks to
> use (source in https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-system-containers/
).
> He has some information in a blog post at:
>
> https://www.projectatomic.io/blog/2017/11/migrating-
kubernetes-on-fedora-atomic-host-27/
>
> I think having the content updated to point to or be based on Jason's
> instructions would be a good replacement.

Well actually... the main way I've used these system containers is
with the ansible scripts at:
https://github.com/kubernetes/contrib/tree/master/ansible but those
have been deprecated.

I think we should:

* drop the manual instructions from the site
* tell people who want manual to go read "kubernetes the hard way"
* focus on kubeadm for kubernetes on atomic (see
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jasonbrooks/QA/
AtomicTests/Install_Kubeadm
and https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-system-
containers/tree/master/kubeadm)
* point to openshift-ansible for people who want a more complicated
configuration (https://github.com/openshift/openshift-ansible)

If you'd like to know *all* my thoughts on the matter, I gave a talk
on this subject at Flock: https://youtu.be/Y703n0emWUg

>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Steve Milner
>
> Atomic | Red Hat | http://projectatomic.io/
>

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Jason Brooks]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 10:28 AM, Stephen Milner  wrote:
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Chris Negus  wrote:
>> Red Hat has been phasing out support for manually setting up vanilla 
>> Kubernetes on RHEL and RHEL Atomic. While there are still procedures for 
>> setting up Kubernetes in Fedora in the Kubernetes.io documentation, the 
>> Kubernetes project is considering dropping them because they have become 
>> outdated:
>>
>> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7301
>> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7302
>>
>> In my mind, this means that someone trying out vanilla Kubernetes will start 
>> with some OS outside of the Fedora/RHEL/CentOS ecosystem. My question is, is 
>> it okay to let this content die? Or should we encourage some way to still 
>> manually use Kubernetes on Fedora (Atomic or not)?
>>
>> -
>> Chris Negus
>> Red Hat Principal Technical Writer
>> RHCA, RHCI, RHCX, RHCE
>> Author of the Linux Bible, 9th Edition
>> http://amzn.to/1IBA7NF
>
> Jason Brooks has created a number of system containers for folks to
> use (source in https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-system-containers/).
> He has some information in a blog post at:
>
> 
> https://www.projectatomic.io/blog/2017/11/migrating-kubernetes-on-fedora-atomic-host-27/
>
> I think having the content updated to point to or be based on Jason's
> instructions would be a good replacement.

Well actually... the main way I've used these system containers is
with the ansible scripts at:
https://github.com/kubernetes/contrib/tree/master/ansible but those
have been deprecated.

I think we should:

* drop the manual instructions from the site
* tell people who want manual to go read "kubernetes the hard way"
* focus on kubeadm for kubernetes on atomic (see
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Jasonbrooks/QA/AtomicTests/Install_Kubeadm
and 
https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-system-containers/tree/master/kubeadm)
* point to openshift-ansible for people who want a more complicated
configuration (https://github.com/openshift/openshift-ansible)

If you'd like to know *all* my thoughts on the matter, I gave a talk
on this subject at Flock: https://youtu.be/Y703n0emWUg

>
>
> --
> Thanks,
> Steve Milner
>
> Atomic | Red Hat | http://projectatomic.io/
>

Re: [atomic-devel] Kubernetes manual setup

[Stephen Milner]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Chris Negus  wrote:
> Red Hat has been phasing out support for manually setting up vanilla 
> Kubernetes on RHEL and RHEL Atomic. While there are still procedures for 
> setting up Kubernetes in Fedora in the Kubernetes.io documentation, the 
> Kubernetes project is considering dropping them because they have become 
> outdated:
>
> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7301
> https://github.com/kubernetes/website/issues/7302
>
> In my mind, this means that someone trying out vanilla Kubernetes will start 
> with some OS outside of the Fedora/RHEL/CentOS ecosystem. My question is, is 
> it okay to let this content die? Or should we encourage some way to still 
> manually use Kubernetes on Fedora (Atomic or not)?
>
> -
> Chris Negus
> Red Hat Principal Technical Writer
> RHCA, RHCI, RHCX, RHCE
> Author of the Linux Bible, 9th Edition
> http://amzn.to/1IBA7NF

Jason Brooks has created a number of system containers for folks to
use (source in https://github.com/projectatomic/atomic-system-containers/).
He has some information in a blog post at:


https://www.projectatomic.io/blog/2017/11/migrating-kubernetes-on-fedora-atomic-host-27/

I think having the content updated to point to or be based on Jason's
instructions would be a good replacement.


-- 
Thanks,
Steve Milner

Atomic | Red Hat | http://projectatomic.io/