Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Just tried the steps in #26. Didn't work. Ah well.Emacspeak basically knows what it's doing, unlike all screen readers. Emacspeak looks at not only the system calls and such, but the actual buffer (file) that it's working with to get a sense of what's going on. Screen readers don't have that, just what the system tells them. And, Emacspeak expresses formatting info, through speech. Only Narrator can do that with minimal configuration, and JAWS can be made to do this with a lot of messing with sound schemes and such. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551397/#p551397 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @24 Could you elaborate on why you find Emacspeak better than any other screen reader, even those on windows? It seems like a huge amount of trouble to learn how Emacspeak works, + the additional overhead of trying to get it working on windows with Eloquence (assuming that's even possible). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551330/#p551330 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I've noticed that as well... voiceover in pages in the mac... just no. Really hoping apple fixes these bugs... but it all depends on what you want to do and work with. I personally have mac and a windows vm as an alternate, so if something is better on windows, i'll do it on windows URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551328/#p551328 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @26: I'd be interested to find out how you can use Emacspeak on Windows. Particularly, how does it output speech? Through Sapi5? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551325/#p551325 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I've personally used both Mac and Windows and would consider myself proficient in both. Mac was new but usable until the VO bugs started piling up. Now, I am a million times more productive on Windows than I am on my Mac, especially in the word processing department. VO just doesn't play nice with pages anymore, which is a bit of a shame really. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/551322/#p551322 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I personally don't think they'll stop selling computers, but that's ^ujust me. For one, one cannot do audio editing, just as an example, quite as good on a ipad as on a mac; just to give one example. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550428/#p550428 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @28They're entirely separate codebases. They're not even running on the same processor architecture, at the moment. The underlying accessibility APIs are different. IPC is different. Tons of other things are different. You can't just take iOS voiceover and run it on Mac, or on the watch, or whatever.I expect that we will either see Apple announcing an iPad to Mac merger or that they're not going to be in the business of selling computers in the next 5 years. Me and most of my friends are astonished that that they still bother with desktop at all. But in either case it's not possible to just say that they can share VO across all their platforms. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550421/#p550421 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Hopefully the long standing bugs get fixed... power reserve mode and automatic speaking of items... we'll see I guess. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550412/#p550412 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @38 just because they were not announced at the WWDC, does not mean they are not there. Many things, not just related to accessibility were not announced on WWDC. All I will say, but you probably know that from the Applevis interview as well, Watch is getting a pretty major accessibility upgrade. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550319/#p550319 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Speaking of easpeak... Heard there is a version for mac but never got it to work. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550244/#p550244 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @21:Turning on rate boost also gives me that same effect as E-speak at rate 100 without rate boost. You know, the beginnings of words are sort of squished. Also, I absolutely hate whatever E-speak linux uses, don't know why people say it's better than NVDA's E-speak. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550242/#p550242 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations No ios yes, however all the other other apple devices... not so much. I mean, if they upgrade voiceover on ios, would make sence that mac would get the same upgrades / bug fixes... but apparently not. That's something I find odd though, why drop the ball on mac accessibility; mostly anyway; but on ios its still rolling? Defenetly weird. My statement that they didn't care about accessibility comes from the fact that both mac and ios or any other apple device, have voiceover, its one echosistem. With that point of view in mind, you cant just... advance some; or most; of them in accessibility and leave one hanging. Apple does to an extent about accessibility, however could it improove? Like any other thing out there, yes. The mac needs some major improvements in rejuards to voiceover. Speaking of which... Any of you say any accessibility features in wwdc this year? Granted there might be a reason as to why voiceover on the mac side of things only gets miner tweeks, but who knows. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550197/#p550197 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations No ios yes, however all the other other apple devices... not so much. I mean, if they upgrade voiceover on ios, would make sence that mac would get the same upgrades / bug fixes... but apparently not. That's something I find odd though, why drop the ball on mac accessibility; mostly anyway; but on ios its still rolling? Defenetly weird. My statement that they didn't care about accessibility comes from the fact that both mac and ios or any other apple device, have voiceover, its one echosistem. With that point of view in mind, you cant just... advance some; or most; of them in accessibility and leave one hanging. Apple does to an extent about accessibility, however could it improove? Like any other thing out there, yes. The mac needs some major improvements in rejuards to voiceover. Speaking of which... Any of you say any accessibility features in wwdc this year? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550197/#p550197 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Well, there goes my excuse for not using that. I... Uh... Um... Yeah... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550089/#p550089 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Speaking of EMacs and EMacspeak...For those who would like to use it on Windows, you can do so by grabbing the latest version (based on Emacspeak 45.0 IdealDog) by visiting http://emacspeakwin.sf.net/, then replace that version with the latest, (which is 52.0 Work At Home Dog), by grabbing that from https://tvraman.github.io/emacspeak/blo … CE-52.htmlQuoting from TVRaman on Twitter on the 7th of July 2020:‘Emacspeak 52 from Github should work with the speech server in the Windows emacspeak port -- the TTS API has not changed in a long time.” URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550028/#p550028 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Right. I really need to get onto listening to faster stuff. I kind of got comfortable and stopped pushing myself, but rate 80 boosted is difficult to understand. Again, thank you for the responses. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/550022/#p550022 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations *Brings out the pitchforks. The Invested pitchforks. Shardforks? Can I eat pancakes with that? Be glad I don't have Nightblood. Ah, no one gets these references*For programming and markdown and markup and mark... something, I use Emacs with Emacspeak. My Mac is my main computer. I just do gaming and Discord on my Windows computer, because no screen reader, besides possibly Narrator in a few years, can equal Emacspeak, but I'm not running Linux, with its rather bad accessibility, just for that when I have a Mac with a great Mail client... well unless I'm listening to the email and the screen locks because the Mac doesn't check to see if VOICEOVER is speaking before it locks... Yeah it's very frustrating sometimes. But there is a guy from Apple accessibility on Twitter, not going to give his twitter name because if you know about him, you know about him. He's very open to feedback, so during this public beta season I'll definitely give him all the feedback I can regarding MacOS, and see what Apple does with it. I'm... slightly hopeful, but also I'm the most cynical person on the forum, so I just *know* nothing much will change because "what? Blind people use a computer? Nahhh, they're all consumers, they just watch Netflix and get their BARD Mobile book stuff and play Dice World. What? Blind people code too?"Speaking of Xcode, the Playgrounds part of it will be accessible in MacOS 11 and Xcode 12. Or 13. Or 16. Or whatever the latest Xcode is, storm it. That's really great for me, because it means that I can do the Everyone can Code thing that Apple provides. Also, the recognition thing that iOS will have is also coming to Mac.Of course, we had to get this from the Applevis interview with Apple's accessibility folks, because "what? You mean we, Apple, the Sliver of Infinity, should put all of our accessibility updates for each and every one of our over nine thousand operating systems and services and apps and frameworks and and and... on our what's new page?" So that's great too. And you know they didn't talk about *everything*. Nope, they just have to leave things for us to find, or not find until like years later. Ugh!But about learning the Mac, really it takes a long while of constant practice and trying to envision an interface in a different way. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549966/#p549966 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @22If you're saying you're at 75 rate boosted, that's where most people stop. If you're saying 75 normal, do what I suggested earlier and increase it by 1% to 5% a week and just force yourself to deal. How long it will take depends on you.It's really really worth it to do this. You can get on par with, or sometimes even faster than, a sighted person. Despite not being able to use a mouse and having to tab through everything, etc. And if you go into programming it makes all the punctuation you have to listen to way less of a problem as well. It can outdo braille by orders of magnitude, in other words. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549960/#p549960 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations LOL. I'm like a sighted person when it comes to rate boosted espeak. It just sounds like blabber to me lol. I'm currently sitting at 75, I should really increase it however, URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549957/#p549957 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @20Turn rate boost on, if it's NVDA. That will probably help a little bit. Then turn inflection all the way up. That helps a little bit more.My Espeak doesn't sound weird at 100 with rate boost off. With rate boost on it definitely does, but rate boost on at 100 is around 1500 words a minute and I'm the only person I know to be able to go above rate boosted 80%, so I'm assuming that you're not trying for that. But maybe you are, in which case Eloquence goes weirder and really you're just not going to find a synth that can do it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549950/#p549950 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations UMm, guys,Speaking of running TTS on high-speeds, does anyone knows why E-speak get's weirder when we reach 100 in the speach-rate settings. I am always increasing the speeds of my TTS as I get comfirtable with the current speed, but the way E-speak starts speaking at rate 100 just bugs me. I can go way beyond with other TTS such as Eloquence, but E-speak is my favorite and somehow I can't increase the speed beyond 99. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549941/#p549941 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations yeah windows an android for life. unrelated but what is the best screen reader for android i have talkback but is their anything better URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549885/#p549885 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I want to say this started back in 2012. Lion was the last version of the system to receive significant updates to VoiceOver. Everything since then has been minor tweaking. I've heard they've been improving the VoiceOver experience with Xcode over the past couple of years, but I can't speak on this as I'm not a developer. It's a shame, because there's a lot of great potential that's simply not being realized and/or expanded upon.If the issue is simply not being comfortable with using the screen reader, I encourage you to sit down and use it for a while. Resist the temptation to go back to NVDA if you can't do something or don't find it as efficient. I agree VoiceOver has its shortcomings, but I genuinely enjoyed using it for quite a long time. Remember that you can also access the built-in tutorial and the online user guide by pressing VO+h.As for Apple not caring about accessibility, I'm going to have to say this is absolutely false. Look at the improvements made year after year to iOS. VoiceOver on iOS is a very good product. I suspect the issue is a lack of priority on macOS. Maybe they don't have enough people to work on features for both systems at the same time, or much more likely, someone somewhere is deciding that iOS takes priority because it's the more popular product line. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549884/#p549884 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I want to say this started back in 2012. Lion was the last version of the system to receive significant updates to VoiceOver. Everything since then has been minor tweaking. I've heard they've been improving the VoiceOver experience with Xcode over the past couple of years, but I can't speak on this as I'm not a developer. It's a shame, because there's a lot of great potential that's simply not being realized and/or expanded upon.If the issue is simply not being comfortable with using the screen reader, I encourage you to sit down and use it for a while. Resist the temptation to go back to NVDA if you can't do something or don't find it as efficient. I agree VoiceOver has its shortcomings, but I genuinely enjoyed using it for quite a long time. Remember that you can also access the built-in tutorial and the online user guide by pressing VO+h.As for Apple not caring about accessibility, I'm going to have to say this is absolutely false. Look at the improvements made year after year to iOS. VoiceOver on iOS is a very good product. I suspect the issue is a lack of priority on macOS. Maybe they don't have enough people to work on features for both systems at the same time, or maybe and much more liekly, someone somewhere is deciding that iOS takes priority because it's the more popular product line. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549884/#p549884 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I want to say this started back in 2012. Lion was the last version of the system to receive significant updates to VoiceOver. Everything since then has been minor tweaking. I've heard they've been improving the VoiceOver experience with Xcode over the past couple of years, but I can't speak on this as I'm not a developer. It's a shame, because there's a lot of great potential that's simply not being realized and/or expanded upon.If the issue is simply not being comfortable with using the screen reader, I encourage you to sit down and use it for a while. Resist the temptation to go back to NVDA if you can't do something or don't find it as efficient. I agree VoiceOver has its shortcomings, but I genuinely enjoy using it for quite a long time. Remember that you can also access the built-in tutorial and the online user guide by pressing VO+h.As for Apple not caring about accessibility, I'm going to have to say this is absolutely false. Look at the improvements made year after year to iOS. VoiceOver on iOS is a very good product. I suspect the issue is a lack of priority on macOS. Maybe they don't have enough people to work on features for both systems at the same time, or maybe and much more liekly, someone somewhere is deciding that iOS takes priority because it's the more popular product line. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549884/#p549884 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations When I meant I wasn't sure how accessible it would be, I meant I wasn't sure where you could get softsynths on the internet and where to go to find them. I knew about Osarra the accessible NVDA plugin but I didn't know where to get accessible softsynths for it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549880/#p549880 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Hello. As a audio producer and engineer as well as tech specialist working for an organisation in Canada, I have to say that I did use CakeTalking for Sonar on windows with JAWS for many, many years, but then when my windows 7 machine went obsolete I took a look at Reaper to see if it would work. It did and still does have potential considering that it is cheap, but the thing that was lacking in it was softsynths like piano, drums, bass. Although you could get those online, I wasn't sure how accessible they would be so I thought i'd use a mac and use it for audio production using Logic Pro X and email and things and windows for productivity things like writing documents and playing games. Also, the mac did use to have a third party screen reading software, called Outspoken for the mac which was the only one they had and it turned into Voice Over. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549879/#p549879 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Hi.Well it seems like I dodged a bullet. About 2 years ago I was going to get a Macintosh computer, but then the bank gave me this one for free, and we just didn't bother. Heheh. Imagine spending 7K on a Mac only to realise its not accessible. Well at least no viruses. But then again, no audiogames, NVDA, etc etc. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549857/#p549857 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations That's the thing, I have my speech on the Mac all the way up. I often use braille for editing Markdown documents, and braille on the Mac can't keep up. When I go to route my cursur to a character, sometimes the focus jumps to the top or bottom of the file. Every once in a while, it will land 4 or 5 lines off of where the character is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549838/#p549838 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @12I was expecting pitchforks here. Give it time, and they'll probably show up.It sounds like you have perhaps not trained yourself to fast synths. You might consider doing that. The procedure is very simple: commit, once a week, to turning it up to as fast as you can stand, then push just one notch beyond that, and commit to never turning it back down. Can get upwards of 800 words a minute. Most programmers I know have done this.It's a very effective way to hate Mac, and also to start hating iOS a little bit, when the max settings on the speed dial for anything but espeak and eloquence are lower than your normal listening speed and also you can't go that fast anyway because it sounds drunk well before you've maxed it out. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549821/#p549821 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I bought a mac back in 2016 because I thought I would get a really accessible computer after running Linux for several years. At first, it worked really well; I encountered a few bugs, but it was okay. As each version came out, I upgraded and bugs went unfixed, and several new ones showed up. The main ones for me are the many bugs with braille support. Braille doesn't always follow the speech, and sometimes, my display disconnects entirely!I still have my Mac, but I don't use it much. I got a Windows desktop for Christmas, and I haven't looked back. I am thinking of putting Windows on my Mac. My advice to any blind person looking at a Mac is, run. Stay with Windows; you will have a better experience. Also, if you mention how bad the Mac is over on AppleVis, they bring out the pitchforks. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549813/#p549813 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations When I see these X company does not care about accessibility posts, it is really silly. If they did not care, we would be unable to use an iPhone, an Android device or a computer. How high it is on their priorities list is a different story. However, voiceover is improved with almost every iOS release, so not sure what you are on about there. Mac is however a different story. I do not plan to buy a watch so can't comment on that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549812/#p549812 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations While I love my mac... Shame on apple dropping the ball on accessibility. I mean, yeah voiceover does gets updated once or more every year, but its just miner. And no, its not just on mac os. Apple watch, and ios have the same problem. And yet they clame... Oh we care about accessibility... their actions speak louder than their words. They care, but just a tad bit. If they really, really; cared as much as they say they do, voiceover would be their top or close, to their top priority. But yes we're a minority so who gives a fuck? Sirtainly not apple. Or microsoft. Or google. They have done great things, no doubt about that, but they half ass stuff. Its like, oh, mac now has a screenreader... fuck it, let's drop the ball here, fuck it. Don't get me wrong, mac is great, at least for my needs as a sound designer and music composer / producer, but its a shame on apple for not caring enough about accessibility as they should. Fuck, there is the problem in the applewatch... put it in power reserve mode... you cannot use your watch, not even to check the time. Or how about... you have autospeak enabled for ay, battery, on your watch face. Power your watch off and back on... and your previously autospeak enabled items will be disabled, making you have to reenable them again. And guess what? Thiese bugs, miner though they are; have been around for years. Yes, years. Whenever any company says they care about accessibility and don't show it, or halfass stuff... I always laugh. Care? That's, uh, not caring as you say it is. Its just... falce claims to appease people, and making them feel, oh yes, we care, etc, etc. I've seen this behavior over and over again, and no, not just from apple microsoft and google. I've seen it everywhere, with a lot of companies. I've written, and written; and absolutely nothing comes of it, even though i'm not the only one who writes. But then again, big corporate companies are only after one thing; money. Bnd since we disabled are a minority, of course they'll only do something halfassed. And before someone says that i'm acting entitled... Voiceover,, and other screenreaders and companies, while great, just do the least when it comes to it. They say they care, but then... Why isn't say, voicover improved on mac and ios and apple watch, etc? Keep it in mind, almost every company is like this. Its sad and infuriating yes, but... it is how it is. The point i'm gettig at is that accessibility could be improved, just because say, something works and you fix the occasional bug and update accessibility a couple times a year, doesn't mean things cannot be improved or that they are perfect, but I digress. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549809/#p549809 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations While I love my mac... Shame on apple dropping the ball on accessibility. I mean, yeah voiceover does gets updated once or more every year, but its just miner. And no, its not just on mac os. Apple watch, and ios have the same problem. And yet they clame... Oh we care about accessibility... their actions speak louder than their words. They care, but just a tad bit. If they really, really; cared as much as they say they do, voiceover would be their top or close, to their top priority. But yes we're a minority so who gives a fuck? Sirtainly not apple. Or microsoft. Or google. They have done great things, no doubt about that, but they half ass stuff. Its like, oh, mac now has a screenreader... fuck it, let's drop the ball here, fuck it. Don't get me wrong, mac is great, at least for my needs as a sound designer and music composer / producer, but its a shame on apple for not caring enough about accessibility as they should. Fuck, there is the problem in the applewatch... put it in power reserve mode... you cannot use your watch, not even to check the time. Or how about... you have autospeak enabled for ay, battery, on your watch face. Power your watch off and back on... and your previously autospeak enabled items will be disabled, making you have to reenable them again. And guess what? Thiese bugs, miner though they are; have been around for years. Yes, years. Whenever any company says they care about accessibility and don't show it, or halfass stuff... I always laugh. Care? That's, uh, not caring as you say it is. Its just... falce claims to appease people, and making them feel, oh yes, we care, etc, etc. I've seen this behavior over and over again, and no, not just from apple microsoft and google. I've seen it everywhere, with a lot of companies. I've written, and written; and absolutely nothing comes of it, even though i'm not the only one who writes. But then again, big corporate companies are only after one thing; money. Bnd since we disabled are a minority, of course they'll only do something halfassed. And before someone says that i'm acting entitled... Voiceover,, and other screenreaders and companies, while great, just do the least when it comes to it. They say they care, but then... Why isn't say, voicover improved on mac and ios and apple watch, etc? Keep it in mind, almost every company is like this. Its sad and infuriating yes, but... it is how it is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549809/#p549809 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @8It will probably kill X86 bootcamp. But there's a chance--a small one--that Arm bootcamp could become a thing. The way Microsoft and Apple are tackling the X86 to Arm migration is via X86 to Arm translators, but that's probably never going to be good enough to run a fundamentally X86 OS on. But more to the point, I don't think Bootcamp makes sense to the sighted consumer anymore. You can just run a VM, these days, and Apple doesn't need to sell itself like it used to with respect to "if you go Apple all your old stuff runs".Apple already makes custom chips for iOS, in the same sense as they mean here. The way Arm works overall is that you license the blueprints from whoever has them now--I think SoftBank, which ironically is a bank, not a software company--improve on them if you want, and contract someone to make it for you. Arm is specifically designed to be sort of an expansion pack architecture, pick some instruction set extensions, choose from this list of trade-offs, etc. There's some other more niche ones that are even moreso, but in terms of mainstream stuff Arm wins. Apple is big enough that bringing semiconductor manufacturing in-house might make sense for them now, but usually what's being talked about here is outsourcing the actual manufacturing step to someone who has the factories. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549789/#p549789 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Bootcamp is good yes. But I, don't like my mac at all for the reasons @3 listed. Sticking to ios and windows.I'm curious. Will this new processor thing that apple is going to put into their macs kill bootcamp?Okay I'm not even sure if this apple silicon thing is gonna exist or exists. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549785/#p549785 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations Bootcamp is good yes. But I, don't like my mac at all for the reasons @3 listed. Sticking to ios and windows. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549785/#p549785 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @6My plan for if I ever cared enough to do this is to use something like Dart or React Native and SSh the Mac like it's a Linux server. Can mostly avoid VO that way. Mostly. If it all goes right. But not worth $2000 or so for me to try it and I haven't had my old macbook since 2016 or so(plus it's from 2013 so...yeah, good luck building on that).Frankly: you're probably not quite at the point where you can do this. Doing it will almost certainly require a bunch of stuff like your podsixnet question where the answer is "read the source" except harder. I believe it to be technically possible, in other words, and if someone documented the workflow and reverse engineered the stuff it is almost certainly possible to reproduce whatever it is you did to make it efficient. But...well. Someone would have to pay me, if I was the one who was going to try, there's no joy in it at that point, for lack of a better way to put it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549720/#p549720 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I didn’t buy a Mac, I just bootcamped windows on it for the longest time possible. Figured I would try to use the other side of the coin, if you will. I understand the concept for groups and interacting with them, and I think that is a really neat idea, there’s just so much to remember in order to have semi-comfortable experience with using the machine. The quick navigation works, but it only gets rid of three or four shortcuts by default, which in the long term doesn’t really help. I tried to get into this because of everything I find on the Internet pointing to Mac if I want to build for iOS. React is for Mac, Xcode is for mac, etc. It is understandable, I want to build an application for iOS, thus I must use Apple OS, but still. I figured it would be a longshot anyways, but thank you for the responses regardless. I am just happy that, like I said, I didn’t specifically buy a Mac for the purpose of using it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549717/#p549717 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @4The possibility to create a screen reader exists. But it's not documented anywhere I can find. There's Voiceover, and then there's one library I forget the name of which can be used for automated UI testing that's licensed commercially, and that's it. The information needed is "If you reverse engineer hard enough..." sorts of things, in that you're not stopped technically. Ironically, if we did have the information, it would probably take ten times less effort than NVDA for a variety of complicated reasons that basically boil down to Apple having forced a bunch of people to do things right through control of the platform for a long time.The Arm thing isn't a big deal. Windows is slowly going the same way. NVDA runs on Arm Windows now, I believe. Microsoft doesn't control enough of the hardware to just say "Haha no more x86" for a very long time, but Arm is actually a much better architecture overall for the things the home consumer cares about, and also for many datacenter applications as well. X86 is really just overall a power hog, and the only major advantage it has is for certain kinds of number crunching (but, for complicated reasons, this gap can be closed which is what Apple is probably planning to do, and since 3-4 years ago if you're doing enough number crunching that X86 vs Arm matters you're probably actually just shrugging and using a GPU instead). TEhe Raspberry Pi is catching up to laptops surprisingly quickly.I actually think Apple is by far superior to Windows, if they hadn't taken a "Huh, this beta-quality screen reader prototype is cool isn't it?" as their accessibility approach I'd probably be using it. But, well. They did. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549714/#p549714 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I have to agree with post 3. I love macOS and VoiceOver, but the fact Apple refuses to fix the product or improve it in any meaningful way pisses me off and drives me away from the platform.Interaction is a really cool idea. It allows you to skip potentially large amounts of elements while traversing the interface. For example, you can zip right past a toolbar without having to go through all its controls, or skip a huge list of messages in an email or chat program. Think of interaction as NVDA object navigation reversed. Rather than going from a specific point and working your way out to larger and larger groups, you're doing the exact opposite.I always thought the possibility to create a screen reader in macOS existed, but no one wanted to do it because it wouldn't be worth the effort. I don't like Apple's transition to ARM on the desktop at all! Say goodbye to running other operating systems natively, and let Apple tell you when the machine is obsolete. I don't hold out too much hope for VoiceOver improvements either. It's clear iOS is the future, and if they honestly want to make writing iOS apps more accessible, they either need to seriously improve accessibility on the desktop or port Xcode and all the other development tools to iOS. I miss Mac OS X Snow Leopard. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549708/#p549708 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I have to agree with post 3. I love macOS and VoiceOver, but the fact Apple refuses to fix the product or improve it in any meaningful way pisses me off and drives me away from the platform.Interaction is a really cool idea. It allows you to skip potentially large amounts of elements while traversing the interface. For example, you can zip right past a toolbar without having to go through all its controls, or skip a huge list of messages in an email or chat program. Think of interaction as NVDA object navigation reversed. Rather than going from a specific point and working your way out to larger and larger groups, you're doing the exact opposite.I always thought the possibility to create a screen reader in macOS existed, but no one wanted to do it because it wouldn't be worth the effort. I don't like Apple's transition to ARM on the desktop at all! Say goodbye to running other operating systems natively, and let Apple tell you when the machine is obsolete. I don't hold out too much hope for VoiceOver improvements either. It's clear iOS is the future, and if they honestly want to make writing iOS apps more accessible, they're either need to seriously improve accessibility on the desktop or port Xcode and all the other development tools to iOS. I miss Mac OS X Snow Leopard. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549708/#p549708 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I have to agree with post 3. I love macOS and VoiceOver, but the fact Apple refuses to fix the product or improve it in any meaningful way pisses me off and drives me away from the platform.Interaction is a really cool idea. It allows you to skip potentially large amounts of elements while traversing the interface. For example, you can zip right past a toolbar without having to go through all its controls, or skip a huge list of messages in an email or chat program. Think of interaction as NVDA object navigation reversed. Rather than going from a specific point and working your way out to larger and larger groups, you're doing the exact opposite.I always thought the possibility to create a screen reader in macOS existed, but no one wanted to do it because it wouldn't be worth the effort. I don't like Apple's transition to ARM on the desktop at all! Say goodbye to running other operating systems natively, and let Apple tell you when the machine is obsolete. I don't hold out too much hope for VoiceOver imporvements either. It's clear iOS is the future, and if they honestly want to make writing iOS apps more accessible, they're either need to seriously improve accessibility on the desktop or port Xcode and all the other development tools to iOS. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549708/#p549708 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations I have to agree with post 3. I love macOS and VoiceOver, but the fact Apple refuses to fix thep roduct or improve it in any meaningful way drives me away from the platform.Interaction is a really cool idea. It allows you to skip potentially large amounts of elements while traversing the interface. For example, you can zip right past a toolbar without having to go through all its controls, or skip a huge list of messages in an email or chat program. Think of interaction as NVDA object navigation reversed. Rather than going from a specific point and working your way out to larger and larger groups, you're doing the exact opposite.I always thought the possibility to create a screen reader in macOS existed, but no one wanted to do it because it wouldn't be worth the effort. I don't like Apple's transition to ARM on the desktop at all! Say goodbye to running other operating systems natively, and let Apple tell you when the machine is obsolete. I don't hold out too much hope for VoiceOver imporvements either. It's clear iOS is the future, and if they honestly want to make writing iOS apps more accessible, they're either need to seriously improve accessibility on the desktop or port Xcode and all the other development tools to iOS. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549708/#p549708 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations @1You're going to get two sorts of answers here for the most part. The first sort of answer is going to be the people saying it's great, but then it turns out they never did stuff like learn to run their synth fast, are doing music, or are primarily content consumers as opposed to content producers. Occasionally you find a blind programmer with the patience for it, but even apart from the speech latency, they do too much stupid stuff like say punctuation in the longest long form possible.The other sort of answer is going to be that you can't. Sorry. If you'd asked me first I'd have told you that. I bought a macbook for the same reasons as you in college. Ran into the same frustrations. Went "well of course, it's a new screen reader, what do I expect?" Gave it 6 months. Gave up because after that even basic text editing latency in class was still weighing on me. Turned it into a pretty good Windows laptop with Bootcamp and never looked back.VO on iOS is actually really good. VO on desktop is full of half-finished ideas, like "We play sounds for control types" but not "In parallel with speech". VO on desktop, last I checked, can barely be used for mudding because it doesn't know how to queue announcements in the terminal. I couldn't even get it to read gcc errors reliably because gcc would pause sometimes. Perhaps they've fixed this specific bug. I hope so. But as far as I know they don't even have an equivalent of NVDA's simplified object navigation despite making you use it everywhere.I have a friend who used to program at Microsoft and who does a lot of music, who went Mac because he got tired of dealing with Windows and didn't program much anymore. He finally returned to Windows not too long ago because they broke Mac Pro audio drivers for a lot of people with no fix in sight, but even before that and despite him liking the platform more than Windows, he couldn't really make excuses for this stuff and if I recall he still used a Windows VM for what programming he did. I also know someone else who had to deal with it, who got lower speech latency out of running Eloquence in a VM and hacking Voiceover into talking to it over a TCP socket somehow, not that this was legal (though to be honest I'm pretty sure it's publicly distributed).Let me put it more simply: on Mac, you get TDSR for a good terminal experience, because VO dropped the ball so hard that blind people maintaining their own terminal-specific screen reader was the only option. TDSr has been going for 3 or 4 years at this point.If you're wondering, yes, I'm mad about this in general. There's nothing like every single step on the way from nothing to an iOS app being technically accessible while having the whole process literally take 10 times longer than it should to demonstrate the whole thing about accessible versus usable, blind people have been complaining about this very loudly for years, and Apple has done nothing. I've been told by people who probably know what they're talking about that there's some sort of internal politics in the way of getting the speech latency problem fixed at least, but even so--and the worst part of that is, the person I know who did the Eloquence in a VM thing discovered that a bunch of that latency is literally in the API to ask for speech to happen, not the speech driver itself.So here we are. But at least you have a nice Windows laptop, for as long as Bootcamp lasts.Apple is why many of us fear the day Microsoft decides that third party screen readers on Windows will no longer be allowed, should that day ever come. Mac never got one. Voiceover used to be good. Then Apple dropped the ball and never picked it up again, somewhere around 7 or 8 years ago, and efficiency went through the floor. And here we are: no alternative, no fixes in sight, we don't even have all the documentation we'd need to write a screen reader assuming that we could get the resources together. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549698/#p549698 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations This answer will very from person to person, but here is mine. I use mac by using a combination of trackpad commander / keyboard commands. If you have a ios device and assuming your macbook is a laptop; hold down voiceover keys, control plus option, or capslock; depending on what you have it set to; then do a two finger rotate clockwise on the trackpad, just like the rotor gesture in ios. This will activate the trackpad commander. Then, pritty much 95 percent of the gestures are the same ones found in ios. Or, if you just want to navigate using the keyboard, vo plus arrow keys, or if you press the left and right arrow keys at once, this will enable / disable quicknav, which means, when it ii on, you don't need to hold the voiceover keys to move with the arrow keys. Also, if you want it to behave more like windows, press voiceover keys plus q, and you should hear, single key navigation on or off, leave this on so you can navigate to elements by pressing keys on your keyboard just like in windows. Also, what you are talking about, vo plus command plus shift plus down / up arrows, those are used to interact with items, however you can disable this if you go into voiceover utility, go into navigation, and move right until you hear, grouping behavior next to which there will be a popup, its set to standard by default, you can change this to, ignore groups. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549684/#p549684 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations This answer will very from person to person, but here is mine. I use mac by using a combination of trackpad commander / keyboard commands. If you have a ios device and assuming your macbook is a laptop; hold down voiceover keys, control plus option, or capslock; depending on what you have it set to; then do a two finger rotate clockwise on the trackpad, just like the rotor gesture in ios. This will activate the trackpad commander. Then, pritty much 95 percent of the gestures are the same ones found in ios. Or, if you just want to navigate using the keyboard, vo plus arrow keys, or if you press the left and right arrow keys at once, this will enable / disable quicknav, which means, when it ii on, you don't need to hold the voiceover keys to move with the arrow keys. Also, if you want it to behave more like windows, press voiceover keys plus q, and you should hear, single key navigation on or off, leave this on so you can navigate to elements by pressing keys on your keyboard just like in windows. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549684/#p549684 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: MacBook frustrations
Re: MacBook frustrations This answer will very from person to serson, but here is mine. I use mac by using a combination of trackpad commander / keyboard commands. If you have a ios device and assumming your macbook is a laptop; hold down voiceover keys, control plus option, or capslock; depending on what you have it set to; then do a two finger rotate clockwise on the trackpad, just like the rotor gesture in ios. This will activate the trackpad commander. Then, pritty much 95 percent of the gestures are the same ones found in ios. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549684/#p549684 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
MacBook frustrations
MacBook frustrations I have tried, a multitude of times, to learn how to use VO on a mac. Partially because I highly enjoy the linux CMD, though thanks to WSL I can enjoy this on windows, though mostly I wanted to try my hand at swift and developing for IOS in general.My question is... how do you folks use the machine?I can do basic navigation, but it is incredibly slow. It's like Apple said "We're gonna make everything complicated and instead of adapting VO to use the in-built tools we're going to make it another layer." Every little thing is mapped to it's own shortcut, and the said shortcuts are complicated as hell, cmd + shift + control + d + right arrow or something dumb like that.So, I would appreciate tips. I would like to mess with IOS apps, but the barrier to using Mac is insane. Are there tips you found particularly helpful? Any resources besides Apple's official guide that are good for everyday command use? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/549639/#p549639 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
