Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Those debates ... I've also tried to understand them. But they mostly get over my head, too. They're profoundly obscure and as long as non-self/egoless aspect of the reality isn't realized in one's experience it's pointless to even go through them I think. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607405/#p607405 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Those debates ... I've also tried to understand them. But they mostly get over my head, too. They're profoundly obscure and as long as no-self isn't realized in one's experience it's pointless to even go through them I think. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607405/#p607405 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Ah yes, the Charvakas. I think we covered them a bit in a Buddhist philosophy class, of all places, probably because they competed with abhidharma, or it debated with them. Or possibly Nagarjuna covered them as a position he was debating against, but I don't think so. For some reason it's really connected to Abhidharma in my mind. But honestly I could never keep all of the early Buddhist philosophical schools straight, I think mostly because their obscure debates about what constitutes a person or whether or not there was actually such a thing as a person, which BTW was somehow a different thing from "the self", made my face hurt. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607402/#p607402 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers "What cannot be perceived and understood by the senses does not exist."Wow. That kind of thinking is dangerous. I thought of radiation just then and how it can harm you even though it can't always be perceived by the senses. Same goes for viruses, bacteria, etc. I'm not sure if that's taking it too far, but it's still scary. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607401/#p607401 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @Khomus: I know about this. And I love that story.And atheism(specifically, purely materialistic atheism) is nothing new. Consider, for instance, the ancient Charvaka school of India."The Charvaka vision rejected all supernatural claims, all religious authority and scripture, the acceptance of inference and testimony in establishing truth, and any religious ritual or tradition. The essential tenets of the philosophy were:Direct perception as the only means of establishing and accepting any truthWhat cannot be perceived and understood by the senses does not existAll that exists are the observable elements of air, earth, fire, and waterThe ultimate good in life is pleasure; the only evil is painPursuing pleasure and avoiding pain is the sole purpose of human existenceReligion is an invention of the strong and clever who prey on the weak."Charvakastoo bad it died out and couldn't survive. The last Charvaka's existed till 12th century CE, then they disappeared without a trace. Which is kind of sad. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607369/#p607369 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @Khomus: I know about this. And I love that story.And atheism is nothing new. Consider, for instance, the ancient Charvaka school of India."The Charvaka vision rejected all supernatural claims, all religious authority and scripture, the acceptance of inference and testimony in establishing truth, and any religious ritual or tradition. The essential tenets of the philosophy were:Direct perception as the only means of establishing and accepting any truthWhat cannot be perceived and understood by the senses does not existAll that exists are the observable elements of air, earth, fire, and waterThe ultimate good in life is pleasure; the only evil is painPursuing pleasure and avoiding pain is the sole purpose of human existenceReligion is an invention of the strong and clever who prey on the weak."Charvakastoo bad it died out and couldn't survive. The last Charvaka's existed till 12th century CE, then they disappeared without a trace. Which is kind of sad. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607369/#p607369 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Ah ha! I found the story, from "Zen Flesh, Zen Bones".16. Not Far from BuddhahoodA university student while visiting Gasan asked him: "Have you ever read the Christian Bible?""No, read it to me," said Gasan.The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. . . . Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."Gasan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man."The student continued reading: "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened."Gasan remarked: "That is excellent. Whoever said that is not far from Buddhahood." URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607329/#p607329 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Gaurav: Thanks! I thought so, but it's been forever since I tackled any Jainism.Draq: Yeah, all of the science vs. religion stuff is pretty modern. That's not to say there weren't atheists, lots of those. But as an example, because this gets trotted out a lot, take Galileo.The standard atheist understanding of Galileo goes like this. He championed the Copernican model, where the earth moves round the sun, and did stuff with his telescope and so on. The Catholic Church condemned it as heresy and he got tried and locked in his house and so on. What actually happened however is a little more complicated. What the church objected to was that Galileo was claiming that the Copernican model of the universe was true. However, Galileo had absolutely no proof of this whatsoever, nobody did at the time. So what the church wanted him to do was to teach it as a model, what we might call a theory today in the sense of something we're investigating, not like the theory of evolution which is pretty solidly proven.Galileo refused. Now the problem is that, because we now know he was right, we just project that back and say the church condemned him for being all sciency and correct and stuff. But again, at the time, absolutely nobody had anything that made the Copernican model any more or less true than the Ptolemaic model, which had been serving everybody well for nearly 1500 years. So the falsehood the church was condemning him for wasn't the idea that Copernicus was right. It was the idea that Galileo was yelling about how this thing was totes true with no backing whatsoever. Even then, he could have taught it, if he taught it as something he thought of as a compelling alternative. But he refused and kept insisting that it was absolutely true. Note also that Copernicus was a priest, something people into the war between religion and science fail to mention, for some reason. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607262/#p607262 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @khomus, post 14, where as you want to reduce me to being the hateful one because I supposedly just want to start a fight. You asked for a set of examples. You dismantled them. Congratulations; argument over. You win. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607259/#p607259 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
2021-01-16
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : wing of eternity via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers My advise is not for everyone, and it's so personal that I don't even want to give it.In all truth I fluctuate between vedanta and nihilism, between reducing myself to nothing and then reducing the illusion. I move from one to another as a conductor making a great symmphony. As the problems of mine can no longer be answered by western philosophy I move away far far from it, but never renouncing it completely. I use aphorism as therapy, and poetry as well. The universal negation as double nullity of all. That's why I am allways moving from one to another. At least once a year I have crises of mysticism, and a need to go in to nature, may be I got it from the romantics! lolwhen myself is not enough then I try to justefy the ureallity of it all, to switch my body beyond the boundry of allianation. A swift decision of grace through skeptical enquiry. This task is most important for me, I am obsessed only by the question of being or not being, by the anxiatty of life, and by decay. Only esthetics here, only that seems to be my field if this can even be called esthetics. Yes, they are esthetics of decay!When all seems lost I remember Philip Mainllander and his god who killed himself when he made the world. A heracy so philosophical that everyone should run by now.Mainlander essentially made a paroxism out of schopenhower's will to live. when you are inraged at someone you will try no doubt to react, to strik , to humiliate, but every time when I don't do it I seem to be more free. Freedom is not found oin the number of things you do, but in the nuber of things you don't do. Freedom from becoming, and from being, look here is the key. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607199/#p607199 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
2021-01-16
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : wing of eternity via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers My advise is not for everyone, and it's so personla that I don't even want to give it.In all truth I fluctuate between vedanta and nihilism, between reducing myself to nothing and then reducing the illusion. I move from one to another as a conductor making a great symmphony. As the problems of mine can no longer be answered by western philosophy I move away far far from it, but never renouncing it completely. I use aphorism as therapy, and poetry as well. Th universal negation as double nullity of all. That's why I am allways moving from one to another. At least once a year I have crises of mysticism, and a need to go in to nature, may be I got it from the romantics! lolwhen myself is not enough then I try to justefy the ureallity of it all, to switch my body beyond the boundry of allianation. A swift decision of grace through skeptical enquiry. This task is most important for me, I am obsessed only by the question of being or not being, by the anxiaty of life, and by decay. Only easthetics here, only that seems to be my field if this can even be called easthetics. Yes, they are easthetics of decay!When all seems lost I remember Philip Mainllander and his god who killed himself when he made the world. A heracy so philosophical that everyone should run by now.Mainlander essentially made a paroxism out of schopenhower's will to live. when you are inraged at someone you will try no doubt to react, to strik , to humiliate, but every time when I don't do it I seem to be more free. Freedom is not found oin the number of things you do, but in the nuber of things you don't do. Freedom from becoming, and from being, look here is the key. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607199/#p607199 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @khomusThanks for that information. I was focusing on the three Abrahamic religions for the most part, and I suppose I should have been more clear about the science part by saying creationism. Either way, I learned something new. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607192/#p607192 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Jainism is purely atheistic and similarly based on the assumption that reincarnation is painful. They accept the existence of devas(divine beings living in higher realms), but which Indian system doesn't? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607186/#p607186 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Jainism is purely atheistic. They accept the existence of devas(divine beings living in higher realms), but which Indian system doesn't? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607186/#p607186 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Draq opined: "Religions that involve the worship of a deity seem to attempt to serve two basic functions. The first is explaining where we all came from and why we're here. As far as the Abrahamic religions go, those teach us that we were created by God to serve God, more or less. Science and religion have always been at odds about this."See, again, it would help if you knew what you were talking about. Science and religion really haven't been "at odds" until the latter half of the 1800s, and then largely in America. The idea comes largely from two books, one put out in 1874 and the other in 1896. The latter book popularized the idea that before Columbus, everybody thought the earth was flat and that the idea that the earth was round was opposed by the Catholic Church.A passing acquaintance with history would demonstrate the falseness of this claim. The ancient Greeks knew that the earth was round and gave several proofs, and from approximately 1000 CE onward, the church incorporated Greek philosophy, courtesy of the Islamic world which preserved quite a bit of it lost to the Christian world.Later, in the early 1900s, a segment of American Christianity vehemently reacted to what it saw as attacks on it by the modern world, culminating in the publication of a set of books called "The Fundamentals" between 1910-1915. Many ideas about the end of the world, e.g. the rapture, also came about around this time. My point is, these are not very old ideas, considering the entire history of Western science and Christianity."The second is probably going to ruffle some feathers and step on some toes, but I have a suspicion that a lot of these religions were created to control the masses. What better way to keep people in line than to convince them that an all powerful, Omnipotent being will punish them if they do something wrong, and that if they don't believe in this being that they'll go to some place of eternal torment when they die?Religions can have some good aspects such as teaching morality and giving people a sense of purpose as well, but the above are the two main things I've identified."Again, that's because you have no idea of what you're talking about. There are about two or three religions in the world with an omnipotent god. They are Christianity, Islam, and Sikhism. Possibly Baha'i has one as well, but it's been a while since I've done any reading in Baha'i. Some forms of Hinduism can be said to as well, e.g. Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita, but considering that in Arjuna's vision of Krishna Arjuna is told that since Krishna is essentially everything/everywhere even Krishna's enemies end up at Krishna in the end, it can hardly be said that Krishna, if we're considering him to be an omnipotent god, is condemning people to a place of punishment, eternal or otherwise.Christianity and Islam both have places of punishment, I forget if Islam's is eternal but it's probably a safe assumption. That's two religions, in the whole history of religions that we know about, which covers some five thousand years, that work in the way you've described. Actually, I'll tell you what. Let me be nice to you. Let's assume Baha'i works that way too. Then we'll throw in Zoroastrianism, because even though it's kind of polytheistic, it does have a ruling god and it does have a place of punishment, and I think some writings even consider it to be eternal. I totally forget how Jainism works, so let's give you that one too, just for the hell of it, pun intended.We're up to five whole religions, and I'm being really generous to you here, that work in the manner you describe, i.e. an omnipotent god who will punish you eternally. So let's start looking at some other modern religions that don't work like this at all. Confucianism, Daoism, Shinto, all forms of Buddhism, most forms of Hinduism, pretty much any indigenous religion I've ever read about which covers huge chunks of the world including all of North and South America, Africa, Oceania (Australia, Polynesia, Melanesia, Micronesia and so on), and large parts of Asia. Basically find a people still practicing their indigenous religion, and you don't have any of this.Moving right along, if we consider historical religions, you're up to five and a half, because in ancient Egyptian religion you could be eaten by something called Amemet, which devoured you if you didn't live according to Maat, truth, righteousness, law. That's assuming you got to go through the whole post-death ordeal for a shot at eternal life. That's not eternal punishment, but I'll grant you that having your soul devoured, so to speak, is pretty final, if not eternal, and it's certainly a punishment.Other than that? Sorry my friend. I've already covered the Sumerians in a previous post, ditto the Akkadians (Babylonians) and Assyrians (pretty much the same theology as the Akkadians). I've also covered the ancient Hebrews. I'm
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @Cheese: that sounds like something which happens in deep meditation, except it was just for a moment. That is intensely blissful when it happens, your entire being, depending upon your effort, for a moment-or for hours-overflows with ecstasy. You stumbled upon it, so I'd suggest to try different things out. You'll reach there again and would be able to control it as per your will.@Khomus: I have no doubt that Christ was one of the few who attained to his true nature. But what had Christianity made out of him? His whole life must've been a dance-full of immense joy and bliss-after all, if you can't be ecstatic after enlightenment, when would you be? But what had Christians made out of him? Someone sad, someone who takes on your sins and forgives you. And not to mention if you don't accept him as a savior you're condemned to eternal hell.@JJ: TLDR; we are all interconnected. Everything is interconnected. But karma is not an intelligent process. It's not a deterministic process-what you did in the past has come to bite you now, and what you did right now would come to bite you back in the future. Well, that's the Hindu conception of karma, and it's allowed evils like cast system to flourish. It's similar to Jain conception where your soul is literally contaminated by any action you do-so the solution according to them is not doing any action at all! Then the soul would gradually be purified and break away from the cycle of births and deaths. All of us, I think, can see the issue with both of those conceptions. But if you see it working in feedback loops-past influences your present, present influences present, which in turn influences the future, and that's how past also influences the future in some way. Add to it the nature and nurture, which also involves genetics, cultural conditioning, and what not. Now this is what I call immensely complex chain of causes and effects. It literally is imponderable. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607171/#p607171 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @Cheese: that sounds like something which happens in deep meditation, except it was just for a moment. That is intensely blissful when it happens, your entire being, depending upon your effort, for a moment-or for hours-overflows with ecstasy. You stumbled upon it, so I'd suggest to try different things out. You'll reach there again and would be able to control it as per your will.@Khomus: I have no doubt that Christ was one of the few who attained to his true nature. But what had Christianity made out of him? His whole life must've been a dance-full of immense joy and bliss-after all, if you can't be ecstatic after enlightenment, when would you be? But what had Christians made out of him? Someone sad, someone who takes on your sins and forgives you. And not to mention if you don't accept him as a savior you're condemned to eternal hell.@JJ: TLDR; we are all interconnected. Everything is interconnected. But karma is not an intelligent process. It's not a deterministic process-what you did in the past has come to bite you now, and what you did right now would come to bite you back in the future. Well, that's the Hindu conception of karma, and it's allowed evils like cast system to flourish. It's similar to Jain conception where your soul is literally contaminated by any action you do-so the solution according to them is not doing any action at all! Then the shoul would gradually be purified and break away from the cycle of births and deaths. All of us, I think, can see the issue with both of those conceptions. But if you see it working in feedback loops-past influences your present, present influences present, which in turn influences the future, and that's how past also influences the future in some way. Add to it the nature and nurture, which also involves genetic, cultural conditioning, and what not. Now this is what I call immensely complex chain of causes and effects. It literally is imponderable. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607171/#p607171 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @Cheese: that sounds like something which happens in deep meditation, except it was just for a moment. That is intensely blissful when it happens, your entire being, depending upon your effort, for a moment-or for hours-overflows with ecstasy. You stumbled upon it, so I'd suggest to try different things out. You'll reach there again and would be able to control it as per your will.@Khomus: I have no doubt that Christ was one of the few who attained to his true nature. But what had Christianity made out of him? His whole life must've been a dance-full of immense joy and bliss-after all, if you can't be ecstatic after enlightenment, when would you be? But what had Christians made out of him? Someone sad, someone who takes on your sins and forgives you. And not to mention if you don't accept him as a savior you're condemned to eternal hell.@JJ: TLDR; we are all interconnected. Everything is interconnected. But karma is not an intelligent process. It's not a deterministic process-what you did in the past has come to bite you now, and what you did right now would come to bite you back in the future. Well, that's the Hindu conception of karma, and it's allowed evils like cast system to flourish. But if you see it working in feedback loops-past influences your present, present influences present, which in turn influences the future, and that's how past also influences the future in some way. Add to it the nature and nurture, which also involves genetic, cultural conditioning, and what not. Now this is what I call immensely complex chain of causes and effects. It literally is imponderable. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607171/#p607171 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @Cheese: that sounds like something which happens in deep meditation, except it was just for a moment. That is intensely blissful when it happens, your entire being, depending upon your effort, for a moment-or for hours-overflows with ecstasy. You stumbled upon it, so I'd suggest to try different things out. You'll reach there again and would be able to control it as per your will.@Khomus: I have no doubt that Christ was one of the few who attained to his true nature. But what had Christianity made out of him? His whole life must've been a dance-full of immense joy and bliss-after all, if you can't be ecstatic after enlightenment, when would you be? But what had Christians made out of him? Someone sad, someone who takes on your sins and forgives you. And not to mention if you don't accept him as a savior you're condemned to eternal hell.@JJ: TLDR; we are all interconnected. Everything is interconnected. But karma is not an intelligent process. It's not a deterministic process-what you did in the past has come to bite you now, and what you did right now would come to bite you back in the future. Well, that's the Hindu conception of karma, and it's allowed evils like cast system to flourish. But if you see it working in feedback loops-past influences your present, present influences present, which in turn influences the future, and that's how past also influences the future in some way. Now this is what I call immensely complex chain of causes and effects. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607171/#p607171 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @16, yeah. Such a huge elephant. It was written for me, since you asked, but not because I struggle with saying the correct things, its not that I can't choose my words correctly. Its just when I'm at a computer I struggle to convay the right messages over text. And nextly, The reason I'm generally so rough is well, I view the internet through a sorta hood lense. Where you gotta be tough to survive. IMO, religion isn't just one ideal we can follow and believe. Its not one god did this and one god did that. I'm of the opinion that there is a god as I said, however spirituality shouldn't depend on that one god. The ansestors, nature and other forces play a role in our lives. Karma is an angry elephant with a sledge hammer with a superpowered suit waiting to smash you right in the testicles. And the values of respect, equality, love and peace are important to having a fulfiling and happy life. It isn't just god or mother Lutchmi or whatever, its a balance of all their ideals and teachings. Nobody can say for sure how the universe was created or what will happen to us after we die, however looking at different religions and teachings can help us better understand and craft our own opinions. That's why I dislike people who force their religion down your throat. That's why I respect nocturnous. Even though he's a proud Christian he doesn't take every chance he gets to convert everyone. I'll get the prayer for y'all tomorrow, so you can read it yourselves. Oh, and one more thing before I leaveI was on YouTube the other day, and I saw a video titled the Caribbean accent. OK< I thought there is no such thing, but lets look at it. He mostly talks about the Guyanese accent, but tat's not the part that's worth telling about, its the part in the end where he says that the Guyanese accent, and by at large the English Creoles of the Caribbean is unrepresentitive of Jesus Christ therefore his American tongue was better for teaching about Mormanism. I got pretty pissed because its not like its a far away people speaking a far away language worshipping a far away god. Its literally the same language and same god. And while I do understand that not all people are hypocrits like that, it can be totally discouraging to have your variant of a language labelled heathenistic, and that sorta judgementalism for many yis a reason why they turned away from the church and religion in general. Take what you wish from that little rant of mine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607169/#p607169 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Religions that involve the worship of a deity seem to attempt to serve two basic functions. The first is explaining where we all came from and why we're here. As far as the Abrahamic religions go, those teach us that we were created by God to serve God, more or less. Science and religion have always been at odds about this.The second is probably going to ruffle some feathers and step on some toes, but I have a suspicion that a lot of these religions were created to control the masses. What better way to keep people in line than to convince them that an all powerful, Omnipotent being will punish them if they do something wrong, and that if they don't believe in this being that they'll go to some place of eternal torment when they die?Religions can have some good aspects such as teaching morality and giving people a sense of purpose as well, but the above are the two main things I've identified. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607163/#p607163 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Religions that involve the worship of a deity, at least to me, seem to attempt to serve two basic functions. The first is explaining where we all came from and why we're here. As far as the Abrahamic religions go, those teach us that we were created by God to serve God, more or less. Science and religion have always been at odds about this.The second is probably going to ruffle some feathers and step on some toes, but I have a suspicion that a lot of these religions were created to control the masses. What better way to keep people in line than to convince them that an all powerful, Omnipotent being will punish them if they do something wrong, and that if they don't believe in this being that they'll go to some place of eternal torment when they die?Religions can have some good aspects such as teaching morality and giving people a sense of purpose as well, but the above are the two main things I've identified. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607163/#p607163 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Gaurav:There's a Zen story I can't find right now, just don't remember what book it's in, where somebody reads some of Jesus' words to a Zen master. The master replies, "whoever said that was very close to Buddha". Then there are some more words, and the master said that whoever said that was enlightened. I want to say it was the Sermon on the Mount, but I'm not sure. If I can remember where it is I can find it and post it.Cheese:Ah, we're probably thinking along similar lines then. I honestly don't know what people are doing in a religion, or anything like it, if they haven't had some sort of experience. I mean, I'm pretty broad-minded on what constitutes an experience, but still, it would just seem weird to me to be doing something and have no real connection to it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607162/#p607162 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
2021-01-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers The real elephant in the room is @OP giving a prayer, religious or not. While some might use carefully chosen words, a suitable metaphor being butterflies carrying a scroll atop a soft pillow. he is like swinging a sledge hammer, and, as if that weren't enough, with the assistance of a full suit of power armor to help deliver the blow more forcefully.My spirituality is something I don't entirely understand. I do know that my native blood comes out at times though. Nature is a big part of it, and being among nature is really the only way I ever feel at peace. I don't believe in a single god, or really multiple gods unless you count every element in nature as being a deity. I see the power behind things, and when they come together, they form beautiful patterns.I would say the closest I've ever come to a religious experience happened on frigging teamtalk of all places. I was attempting to do Tuvan throat singing, and not very good. It sort of morphed into a chant of sorts, and I remember others sort of joining in. It all came to a peak and I just felt this sense of power rushing through me. It was a flash of a thing, very fleeting, and then it was gone. I've been looking for ways to get that back. If only to study it, learn from it, know more about what happened in that moment. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607150/#p607150 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers here's a thing. Out of all the religions I've examined, only Buddhism seems to have made social equality, generosity and morality a foundation of life and the whole path in general. and let's not forget to mention the development of 4 great immeasurable attitudes lovingkindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity. that... happened without an actual belief in a supreme Creator still boggles my mind sometimes. you don't need to believe in a god to be good, or even next world to be good. see it this way. belief in an other world is meaningless, although the work of Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker is very, very convincing in it's scope. if you're good to yourself and others, you enjoy a clear conscience here-and-now. if you observe how the world in the experience works, you see there are causes, and effects, there are multitudes of causes intersecting at a single point in time to produce an effect. so if there's an afterlife, or rebirth, or whatever that may be, you won't go to a bad place[whatever that may be]. if there isn't, you still enjoy a wonderful abiding here-and-now. this is highly practical and empirically verifiable. you *don't need a god* to be spiritual. you *don't need to be religious* to have realization. all religions are like chains, I'd say. although Buddhistic worldview resounds profoundly with me, because of it's rationalistic nature, I don't let it turn into a chain of sorts and still am able to implement the principals and perceive very deep changes in myself. the path is supposed to be come-and-see, not based on blind dogma, after all. to me, something which gives instant results is way better than, say, something which offers me salvation after death, especially when I don't even know what lies afterwards.And this could actually be a wonderful exercise. The development of 4 sublime attitudes does not require any beliefs and is highly nonsectarian in nature. And the moment you implement any of those you actually feel a warmth and a subtle joy spreading and permeating your whole being.So if you're looking for nonreligious prayers, you should consider trying to develop the 4 sublime attitudes for the whole world without exception. That actually takes immense courage to be done, especially when you get to the people who have harmed you in some way or the other. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607148/#p607148 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers here's a thing. no other religion other than Buddhism had made social equality, generosity and morality a foundation of life and the whole path in general. and let's not forget to mention the development of 4 great immeasurable attitudes lovingkindness, compassion, empathetic joy, and equanimity. that... happened without an actual belief in a supreme Creator still boggles my mind sometimes. you don't need to believe in a god to be good, or even next world to be good. see it this way. belief in an other world is meaningless, although the work of Ian Stevenson and Jim Tucker is very, very convincing in it's scope. if you're good to yourself and others, you enjoy a clear conscience here-and-now. if you observe how the world in the experience works, you see there are causes, and effects, there are multitudes of causes intersecting at a single point in time to produce an effect. so if there's an afterlife, or rebirth, or whatever that may be, you won't go to a bad place[whatever that may be]. if there isn't, you still enjoy a wonderful abiding here-and-now. this is highly practical and empirically verifiable. you *don't need a god* to be spiritual. you *don't need to be religious* to have realization. all religions are like chains, I'd say. although Buddhistic worldview resounds profoundly with me, because of it's rationalistic nature, I don't let it turn into a chain of sorts and still am able to implement the principals and perceive very deep changes in myself. the path is supposed to be come-and-see, not based on blind dogma, after all. to me, something which gives instant results is way better than, say, something which offers me salvation after death, especially when I don't even know what lies afterwards.And this could actually be a wonderful exercise. The development of 4 sublime attitudes does not require any beliefs and is highly nonsectarian in nature. And the moment you implement any of those you actually feel a warmth and a subtle joy spreading and permeating your whole being.So if you're looking for nonreligious prayers, you should consider trying to develop the 4 sublime attitudes for the whole world without exception. That actually takes immense courage to be done, especially when you get to the people who have harmed you in some way or the other. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607148/#p607148 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers OK. Where do I start?"Example: Pantheism has formed more religions than any other world system of religiosity and continues to add gods faster than I can learn about them."Pantheism doesn't form anything. Pantheism means that God is in everything, or put another way, that everything is part of God. So already, you're wrong. As far as more gods being added than you can learn about, got any examples? Or do you just mean there are a lot of religions and/or gods in the world, and so you've given up on trying to learn about them?"Whatever you think about eastern world mysticism, whether you're the one with the universe type or you actually subscribe to one of scores of gods, not all of them believe the same exact thing fundamentally.""eastern world mysticism" huh? Man, you've really truly studied things I see. I'm sorry, since you're apparently treating every other religion besides whatever version of Christianity you subscribe as a mass of interchangeable "eastern world mysticism", I don't think that really requires a response from me."Meanwhile, in the western world, the question isn't one about which god to follow, but if god even exists."Riiight. Because there are no Buddhists, various forms of neopagans, the various new age religious movements, just as a few examples, all over the Western world. Nope, it's all whether the Christian god exists or not. Dude, you should maybe rethink this conversation."The atheist believes he does not. The theist believes he does."This is the first sensible thing you've said."The common basis of the general theist revolves on 4 simple words, 4 words the atheists opposes. those words are, "In the beginning, God."If the atheists opposes those four words and the theist believes in them, the question then becomes, how do you consolidate both as true?"Well, and I'm assuming the first half of this quote about Genesis is correct for the sake of argument, you don't. But see, this is foundationalism again. You want to have a fight, so you set this thing up where one thing has to be right, and one thing has to be wrong. Who cares? If you've found "in the beginning, God" to be true, that's great. It's got nothing to do with me, as far as I can tell, but maybe that's just because I follow some form of "eastern world mysticism" and I can't think properly or something.Because you think truth needs to be universal and foundational, you assume there has to be a fight, either A or B is true. But again, I point to a net. If the net is mostly round, that is the pattern of holes is round, does it matter that some holes in that section over there are diamond-shaped? If the net can work with multiple hole shapes, in other words be made up of different patterns of weaving and still function as a net, well there you go. The problem isn't solved, because the problem doesn't even exist. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607129/#p607129 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
2021-01-15
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : wing of eternity via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers He who does not coincide with anything will not coincide more with himself either: hence the calls without faith, the hesitant convictions, the fever without fervor, that doubling which affects our ideas and even our reflexes. The ambiguity, which governs all our relations with this world and the next, we keep at first for ourselves; then I spread it around, so that no one would escape, so that no one would know what to expect. There is nothing clear anywhere: it is our fault that things themselves are faltering and perplexed. We should have the faculty — indispensable to one who seeks salvation — to believe that prayer is possible. Hell is when prayer becomes inconceivable.Establishing a universal ambiguity is our most disastrous feat and makes us rivals of the demiurge. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607106/#p607106 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @khomus fair enough.Example: Pantheism has formed more religions than any other world system of religiosity and continues to add gods faster than I can learn about them. Whatever you think about eastern world mysticism, whether you're the one with the universe type or you actually subscribe to one of scores of gods, not all of them believe the same exact thing fundamentally. Meanwhile, in the western world, the question isn't one about which god to follow, but if god even exists. The atheist believes he does not. The theist believes he does. The common basis of the general theist revolves on 4 simple words, 4 words the atheists opposes. those words are, "In the beginning, God."If the atheists opposes those four words and the theist believes in them, the question then becomes, how do you consolidate both as true? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607102/#p607102 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Nocturnis: It would really help if you flesh out some of this stuff with examples, because you're just making these pronouncements like without truth everything is meaningless. What's "truth"? I mean, I can say it's true that I really like Tuvan throat singing, and that is in fact true. But I'm going to guess this isn't the kind of thing you're talking about. In any case, I'll try to respond.Most people think of philosophy like a building. If you believe thing A, it has to be justified by thing B, and thing B has to be justified by some other thing, and so on. This is called foundationalism. I, personally, am an anti-foundationalist. What I think makes way more sense is something called relational epistemology. What this means is that you discover things through their relationships. Paints don't mean much to me, being blind, but they have a great depth of meaning to an artist.So how do you find meaning or truth in such a philosophy? Think of it like a net, or like weaving. There's no starting point for a net. There's no one thing that has to be in order for a net to happen. A net works because of the relationships of the weaving material that makes it up. Unlike a building, which falls if it has no foundation, there's no central thing for a net to lose. So you find truth in relationships, between you and people, you and other things, stuff like that. It works like a net, not a building.Far from having no meaning, because there's no foundational universal truth, I'd argue that there's *more* meaning, because the meaning exists right now. It's something we have to actively work on. It's something that easily responds to new information, if that new information is relevant. There aren't crisis points, e.g. if I lose belief A, everything is lost. I don't have to have one thing, in other words, parts of the net may be made of metal, other parts might be made of plant fibers, and so on. That is to say, I can easily incorporate new ideas. Of course, this has to be done properly, otherwise you don't have a very good net. So consider properly understanding an idea as weaving it into your net well, so you don't have trailing fringes or something that doesn't truly fit. Now you might have problems, e.g. a hole in your net. You have to fix that, sure. But your entire net isn't destroyed just because you lose a part of it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607080/#p607080 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @Haily, where as I hate disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. If I could turn back the hands of time, I'd probably leave the idea of truth alone and ignorantly go on as I did for the first 26 years of my life and just... I dunno. I'm hardwired to pursue it doggedly, however, because to me, living without it is as good as saying everything in this world is meaningless, and that's a statement I view as an absolute negation. What I will not do is tell others what to believe. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607052/#p607052 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers And then we get into Orwell's 1984 idea of subjective reality. I agree with you, even though I know we have radically different beliefs. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607034/#p607034 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers It all comes back to what you believe is true, and for many, that changes with every passing bit of information that is pushed to them. That concept makes some people feel guilty because they're never convinced of anything. On the other hand, that kind of guilttrip pushes people to solidly stick to something, right or wrong, sometimes ritualistically, driving them to burnout, boredom, madness, etc etc.for my part, I follow my convictions as best I can and with as much logic as I have. Truth, by definition, assumes something else on the other end is false. Any statement you make that is supposed to be a truth statement excludes something else which opposes it. If that is true, then not all things can altogether be true, particularly if they contradict each other at fundamental levels; they would cancel each other out. So, either something is true and something opposing it is false, or nothing is true at all and all things are simply manmade opinions rather than realities. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/607029/#p607029 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Whoa boy howdy. Where do I even start?as an animist, I'm weird. I believe there are, let's call them powers, for lack of a better term. Rocks can have it, water, fire, the sun, mountains, trees, bagpipes, and so on and so on. It's not about explaining something I don't understand, nor were other people's gods. It's about relationships, at least for me.Suppose I say "how do I use a hammer"? You teach me that. Suppose I am learning to play an instrument, and learning a technique. I'm not getting it, and not getting it. I pick up a new instrument, and wham! There you go, I get the technique. Why hasn't the instrument taught me, just as you have taught me to use the hammer? I don't really see much of a difference. It's pretty much the same relationship.In short, I'm starting from an experience, a positive thing I've had happen to me, not a negative thing I can't explain. Similarly, I don't see why people couldn't have had, say, a religious experience of Zeus. Let me put it this way. If you're a Christian, you go, God/Jesus answered my prayer. That's an experience. Why do you assume that same thing couldn't have happened with Zeus, or Maui, or Tenger Etseg, or a waterfall, or what have you? Or if we're not to put "God" in a "man-made box", then why shouldn't I assume that this is God appearing to me in a way I can understand? I don't because I'm not a monotheist, but I'm just saying, it seems like a perfectly valid question.The thing is, lots of people have these dumb theories about how religions started, and I'm sorry but as somebody with a degree in religious studies, I gotta call things as I see 'em. Saying gods were used to explain things people didn't understand, or that religion came from a fear of death, or whatever weird theory you've picked up doesn't cut it. Basically this is because of the huge diversity of religious conceptions throughout the world. There's a fun game you play when you start doing religious studies. Some professor will go "OK, everybody knows what religion is, right"?Of course people will say yes, because they think they do. The professor will then ask somebody to throw out a definition. "it's about God!", somebody will say. Nope, lots of religions have multiple gods, try again. "It's about gods!", says somebody who thinks they've caught on. Nope, there are religions like Buddhism that technically have no gods at all, and the gods that exist are seen as other beings just like us, and not some sort of goal to strive for or as objects of prayer and worship."I've got it", somebody calls out, "it's about the supernatural"! Nope. Many religions see their conceptions as completely and utterly natural, not apart from the world at all, e.g. among some Polynesian and Melanesian societies, you sing prayers to the gods because if you don't, your canoe won't work. It's a technology, like building it in such a way that it doesn't allow water in, nothing mysterious or supernatural about it at all, has nothing to do with the favor or displeasure of gods, that's just how you make a canoe the right way.The next stage is usually something about a system, and priests. So then you point out that there are religions that don't work like that at all, no priests, no special buildings or anything, stuff like that. Just assume it works like that for any statement you make when you say "religion is about whatever" or "religion/gods/some aspect of religion came from this one thing". Let's try an example. Somebody once pontificated that religion came from a fear of death. Death was all scary, so people invented the afterlife to comfort them. This person was an atheist, naturally.I pointed out that in some religions, notably Buddhism and some forms of Hinduism, life was a problem to be escaped. Reincarnation, in other words, the thing that happens after you die, is a problem to be solved, not a comfort. Other conceptions of the afterlife weren't exactly all tea and crumpets, e.g. a Mesopotamian tablet, (I forget if it's Sumerian or Akkadian and I'm too lazy to go and look right now), describes the dead as eating clay and drinking sewage. In the Old Testament, there is nothing like hell but something called sheol, which means the pit or grave or possibly both, again too lazy. Much like Greek conceptions of the afterlife, everybody just went there and it was all dim and dark and they were pretty much these powerless shades.These afterlives, needless to say, don't seem to provide a lot of comfort. They responded by saying it's not about a comfortable afterlife, it's just the comfort of knowing what happens, it gets rid of the existential dread. I pointed out that under that conception, atheism was a religion because it says absolutely nothing happens to you after you die, except decomposition. That might not be comforting, but at least you know exactly what will happe
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
2021-01-14
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : GrannyCheeseWheel via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Monotheism is the same thing as polytheism in this regard. They are no different. We're still using gods to explain how things work that we don't understand to this day. We're just using them for more abstract concepts, because we have science now. The only difference is one person turns to God or Jesus, another turns to Jehovah, another turns to Allah, etc. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/606824/#p606824 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers the problem with the greek gods is that they are gods that were once used to explain away phenomena people could hardly understand because no knowledge was available on how such things worked. Lightning? Zeus must be mad. fire? Hephaestus is on the move. Prodigy children with tons of insight and sky-high IQ? Athena must love them ever so much.I'm not going to get too far into my beliefs because I've done that elsewhere, but I humbly wish to submit the following: if you're going to even hypothetically accept that God exists, you cannot put him in a man-made box. That is to say, attempting to fully comprehenda limitless being through a finite scope is like assuming a 2d being with no knowledge of our 3d world should be able to draw it in its entirety from his 2d perspective. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/606800/#p606800 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers @3 makes sense. I mean, if we gave all power to Queen Elizabeth or Boris Johnson then they'd be labelled an dictator but its fair to god. I will say its a double standard there URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/606787/#p606787 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers I'm actually 1 of the, probably like 15 other humans on this planet who still believes in the Greek gods, primarily because they make the most sense to me. Like, you don't have some almighty all knowing being who somehow loves all and creates all, you have a hole bunch of beings who A, actually achieved their power through either conquest or just being born into the right families, and B, obviously didn't create everything, and in fact don't care about most things outside of their specific spheres. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/606782/#p606782 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers I'm actually 1 of the, probably like 15 other humans on this planet who still believes in the Greek gods, primarily because they make the most sense to me. Like, you don't have some almighty all knowing being who somehow loves all and creates all, you have a hole bunch of beings who A, actually achieved their power through conquest, and B, obviously didn't create everything, and in fact don't care about most things outside of their specific spheres. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/606782/#p606782 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Non-religion specific prayers
Re: Non-religion specific prayers Hi.I call myself a spiritualist, all it means for me is I believe there's an afterlife and things like that.I think I agree with you, how would a non religious prer go anyway? Thanks, non existent being who I don't believe in, for things I believe were given to me through my own hard work and not by ours... It just seams strange to me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/606745/#p606745 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
