Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? There was once a time where GW Micro said something that was only wrong because of bad timing, but is now true as ever. They said that Apple embedding the screenreader into its operating system was a grave disservice to the blind community. And it is. It's not so much Voiceover that's the problem, it's the fact that Apple put just the right amount of time and effort into Voiceover to stay ahead of the curb while companies were trailing behind, and to insure that no one would want to make a third party alternative due to a stupidly complex API hooking Voiceover into the system. Then they stopped. Then other companies surprised us all and caught up. But Apple did not keep going. Even on IOS, because I haven't seen any major innovations for a while. No, let me correct that. I haven't seen any major innovations worth waiting an entire firmware update - if they hadn't baked Voiceover into firmware updates and allowed over the air updates, then this wouldn't be a problem and would probably be a few minor releases and one major version shift. This situation makes GW Micro 100% correct in what they were saying, and I just wish we would have been at least just a little more receptive to them and not just throwing out any word they say just because they're a paid screenreader company. Or were, rather, because now they'd been victimized by the Shark. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421717/#p421717 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? There was once a time where GW Micro said something that was only wrong because of bad timing, but is now true as ever. They said that Apple embedding the screenreader into its operating system was a grave disservice to the blind community. And it is. It's not so much Voiceover that's the problem, it's the fact that Apple put just the right amount of time and effort into Voiceover to stay ahead of the curb while companies were trailing behind, and to insure that no one would want to make a third party alternative due to a stupidly complex API hooking Voiceover into the system. Then they stopped. Even on IOS, because I haven't seen any major innovations for a while. No, let me correct that. I haven't seen any major innovations worth waiting an entire firmware update - if they hadn't baked Voiceover into firmware updates and allowed over the air updates, then this wouldn't be a problem and would probably be a few minor releases and one major version shift. This situation makes GW Micro 100% correct in what they were saying, and I just wish we would have been at least just a little more receptive to them and not just throwing out any word they say just because they're a paid screenreader company. Or were, rather, because now they'd been victimized by the Shark. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421717/#p421717 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? Yeah, VO keys were always the least of my problems. The screen layout idea was probably not thought up from user research completely, but it does work, to an extent. Personally I think that, again, we need some sort of scripting. Whether Narrator gets it or not there are other third party screen reader options out there that can cover the bases that aren't covered, but as Narrator catches up it will no doubt be a matter of time before it just becomes a matter of personal taste. But since Voiceover has literally cemented its place as the only option for Mac, scripting is an absolute must. Another downside to there not being third party alternatives: Ever had VO crash on you? No, I don't mean just restart, I mean a cold shutdown. Happened to me about 4 times this year. And the only way to fix it is to do a force shutdown because It's a core service that you can't restart. Well maybe you can if you can reach terminal and turn on tdsr, then if you happen to know a taskkill equivalent for the Voiceover service, then you may have a shot at restarting it. See how complicated that is? And at the risk of losing saved work, too. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421716/#p421716 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? Just wanted to add that the support for braille on the Mac sucks. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421576/#p421576 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? I think this comes down to personal preference. There are many things I love about the Mac operating system and the way VoiceOver presents information. Interaction is a great concept, but there are certain places where it's used to a ridiculous level.Keep in mind that you don't necessarily have to use VoiceOver navigation everywhere. VoiceOver will work just as well when using standard macOS keyboard commands. You'll miss chunks of text when doing it this way, but this is the same situation you have on Windows. In summary, When there are so many other ways to control VoiceOver, the control+option whining isn't really valid.TheMacintosh platform is dying. It's been apparent for years. Apple is neglecting the entire operating system, and VoiceOver is sadly along for the ride. Apple's focus has switched to iOS, and there's nothing we can do about it. Sadly, the writing is on the wall for the Macintosh. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421568/#p421568 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? I only have experience with nvda on windows, narrator, and voiceover on both iOS and mac OS. I agree that apple has stopped caring, and that is going to turn on them when blind and low vision users have much better options where they can give feedback to people who will listen. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421560/#p421560 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? @Zarvox That's pretty much it. Apple Script is merely a macro manager and nothing more. No app-specific hook-ins. And since Voiceover sucks at web-apps, with more apps going web-based it is going to be a logistical nightmare. Let's take Skype for example. On Windows it's at least a bit nicer, while not as nice as skype 7, but nicer in that there are speech-specific shortcut keys for NVDA and I believe Narrator as well. But definitely NVDA, because the screen reader is allowed to hook into apps. Apple's crucial mistake was that they applied the it just works mentality to their accessibility framework, and didn't offer any fallback in case Cocoa can't come to the rescue. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421535/#p421535 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? I'd be more content if voiceover had scripting, ocr, and stuff like that. Granted Narrator doesn't have scripting, but firstly I don't doubt it will eventually, and second, the door is wide open for third party screenreaders for windows whereas on mac it is not. Windows 10 does, however, have built-in ocr. Google Chrome/chrome OS is adding image description capability go to either the coal mine, or just download a Chrome Canary build and try for yourself. But for mac there is no ocr, limiting us to a $35 Keyboard Maestro that limits us to Tesseract, which is really not great. I mean, for an open source ocr solution it isn't bad, but by today's standards you certainly cannot rely on it, and I would rather pay $35 if it was a computer vision api macro or something like that. What I think happened is that Apple had a lot of drive, but they were doing that in a time when Narrator was still pitifully behind. So, being far ahead themselves, they stopped innovating, and didn't even think to start focus groups like everyone else is doing. Meanwhile, culture shifts and just an overall drive for betterment of accessibility pushed Microsoft and Google far ahead, and Apple just stopped. Granted, the Mac is not getting much love anyway, but when was the last major, and I do mean major update to Voiceover specifically that we've seen, other than OCR which is still crippled compared to a lot of other, better built-in OCR solutions? Why haven't we simplified the gestures some for one-handed users? Why do you need all these complex three/four finger gestures when there could be context menu supplements? Why a roter when we can instead get creative with the fingerprint sensor...oh wait there is none anymore.Im' not just saying this from the other side of the tracks. I've been a mac user for all of four years, but have been around to see the first iteration of Voiceover on Tiger, as well as Outspoken. And i saw Voiceover make leaps and bounds. The problem was that it's not continuing to do so. They aren't asking for any input from users. Even external developers have problems getting through to Apple for crying out loud. I just don't know what is going to change the game fro them, which is why I think that the only thing that makes the iPhone what it still is today is the external apps that surround it. Seeing Ai, Soundscape, many other accessible apps, which, surprise surprise, are released by Apple's competitors, but for simplicity's sake just happen to be IOS exclusives. As a Mac user, it pains me to see a platform that had so much potential fall to bits. But premium high-end computers like the Google Pixelbook are where it's at right now, and those give me hope for the future. Imagine. Right now that machine can run Chrome OS, Android (Arc++), Linux (Chrostini) and can soon run Windows! A 4in1, without virtual machines. And here's one to top that, Chromevox will read the Linux terminal. It won't read gui's yet, but it will read the terminal .Once it starts running Windows stuff, it'll be a 4in1 convertible. The machine feels more well built then my Macbook Pro2015, when the Macbook Pro is $400 more. Tells you that higher price does not always equal premium build and/or longevity. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421531/#p421531 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? @9 that is an interesting view. I did not think about ocr support, or scripting. THere are apple scripts you can write for voiceover, however I do not know anything about them, and from my knowledge they are more for checking status than an add-on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421533/#p421533 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? Yes, you can turn off interacting, however then everything will be cluttered. But at least you know for certain that everything is available to you. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421527/#p421527 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? There is a setting that you can change to make this easier that allows for grouping behavior to be ignored. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421520/#p421520 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? It's ridiculous because they try to force a visual approach to nonvisual people. For instance, things are presented as the screen is laid out, so you end up having these weird layers of abstraction where you can, for no real reason, interact with a text label or a graphic. Doing this is of no benefit, but you can. You will have to find things by searching through and going down a level into the things that are contained within it. I think it's good to have that ability, but I also don't see why that's the primary way you want to represent what's on the screen as it makes so very little sense at first. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421501/#p421501 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? @4 his experience may have more than just the VO modifiers to justify his reasons. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421464/#p421464 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? Me too. I would like to have proof for the reasons that you think the approach is "ridiculous." For me, control + option are in just the right spot to not make a difference. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421423/#p421423 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? @2 I am interested to hear your ideas. I'm not here to argue with people, just get more of an idea of windows versus mac perspectives. I use both without putting thought into experience. If there is a task that works twice as good with one, then I will switch to use it, but if it is a basic task I just do it with whichever one I am currently using. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421417/#p421417 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? @2 I am interested to hear your ideas. I'm not here to argue with people, just get more of an idea of windows versus mac perspectives. I use both without putting thought into experience, if there is a task that works better with one, then I will switch to use it, but if it is a basic task I just do it with whichever one I am currently using. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421417/#p421417 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying?
Re: Are the VO keys for mac annoying? the entire Mac OS approach to screen readers is ridiculous. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/421415/#p421415 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
