PasTim;630300 Wrote:
> I had been under the impression that with PCM one could get subtle
> timing problems in the sequence of bits, and that could result in
> potentially audible degradation. I know people argue about this, but
> I'm not going to (either way). ...
No need for any argument, on
TerryS;630334 Wrote:
> Figure 8.1 in the first link you provided is exactly how I picture
> dithering working on a music signal. Thanks for posting that. But
> obviously, it relies on averaging several readings closely spaced in
> time, implying a relatively high sample rate compared to the ra
adamdea;630296 Wrote:
> err help
> Having fiddled with inguz as eq for some time I am now taking the
> plunge. I have purchased an m-audio mobile pre external soundcardand a
> dbx driverack measuring mic. I have installed the mobile pre on a
> laptop. I ahve downloaded the trial version of inguz
Phil Leigh;630284 Wrote:
> So - I've given it 20 minutes of testing with 24/96 flac files streamed
> as PCM, skipping between tracks on the same and different albums. I
> haven't been able to make the Touch rebuffer once.
>
> I've even tried 24/192 (via Sox), skipping to MP3 and back - nothing
>
adamdea;630321 Wrote:
>
>
> Anyway the nearest I can find to an example not using a sine wave is
> one using a sine wave with decay- which is I think getting close to a
> musical note.
> http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/iandm/part8/page2.html
> however I think his explanation is
adamdea;630328 Wrote:
> The point has been made that if there is already noise in the signal
> equal to at least one lsb then there Is no need to dither.
I know, must have been me...
I only can´t read all the same reasoning again and again. He wonders if
dither has any advantage on music besid
Wombat;630324 Wrote:
> There must come to someones mind that it really doesn´t matter to dither
> 16bit material because the audible distortion level that hurts real
> world listening is already that low that no one should worry about it,
> leave alone anyone needs 24bit...
>
> Dither is only th
There must come to someones mind that it really doesn´t matter to dither
16bit material because the audible distortion level that hurts real
world listening is already that low that no one should worry about it,
leave alone anyone needs 24bit...
Dither is only the method to get out the "theoretic
There are basically 2 different effects that dither has and you are
muddling them up. One is the conversion of distortion to noise and it
applies absolutely whatever the signal is. The only reason it doesn't
make much sense in terms of one sample is that the difference between
noise nad distortion
This theoretically COULD be done with USB DACs, but it could be a little
iffy. Running a USB DAC is FAR more "touchy" on the Touch, you can get
ticks and pops etc quite easily, using TWO of them is going to make
this WAY more likely to happen.
The best bet would be very simple 16 bit only DACs, j
Ordered the electrics today Phil thanks but not from screwfix these guys
give you 5% of the value of your order off your next order!
http://www.gil-lec.co.uk/
My shopping list
MK Unswitched Socket 2 Gang 13A x4 (audio)
13A Switched Socket 2 Gang Polished Chrome for general use hoover etc
13A
When you coming over to do my install then ?
--
tank121
tank121's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=17169
View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=87567
_
Phil Leigh;630286 Wrote:
> Yes you have gone up the wrong garden path. There are no clocks or
> glitches in the transmission path either case.
> The only conceivable mechanism by which FLAC files streamed as PCM
> might result in a different sound from the Touch compared to the same
> files strea
cliveb;630257 Wrote:
> I haven't seen anything that suggests this.
>
> Let me try and tackle this in another way for you.
>
> Fact: Quantisation error results in distortion of the encoding in the
> LSB - End of.
> But what are the practical consequences? ...
>
> Suppose the signal you're recor
err help
Having fiddled with inguz as eq for some time I am now taking the
plunge. I have purchased an m-audio mobile pre external soundcardand a
dbx driverack measuring mic. I have installed the mobile pre on a
laptop. I ahve downloaded the trial version of inguz 2.0. I am trying
to work out what
PasTim;630264 Wrote:
> I don't want to open old arguments, but I am interested in FLAC versus
> PCM.
>
> As I understand it, PCM is a string of bits which must be sent,
> received and processed according to strict clocks. Anything that gets
> in the way might cause a problem, although I'm not
Phil Leigh;630239 Wrote:
> I will confirm later this evening.
So - I've given it 20 minutes of testing with 24/96 flac files streamed
as PCM, skipping between tracks on the same and different albums. I
haven't been able to make the Touch rebuffer once.
I've even tried 24/192 (via Sox), skipping
Both formats are buffered in the Touch. So no timing problems.
Also TCP network does not lose any bits. So also no difference here.
If you believe in the soundchecks findings, then decoding Flac on the
Touch degrades quality.
--
bluegaspode
Big Screen for great Boxes available now at your App
I'm pretty sure the only reason we are even discussing a sine wave is
because it is always the over-simplified example used when illustrating
how digital audio works. As Adam said, digital audio has very little to
do with traditional analogue techniques or models and everything to do
with Informat
TerryS;630254 Wrote:
> I agree that the original setup would not show anything about the
> dither. But what I was suggesting is that this same basic technique
> could be used to measure the distortion (if any) that is caused by
> sampling a music file with the Redbook processing.
> You could sim
I don't want to open old arguments, but I am interested in FLAC versus
PCM.
As I understand it, PCM is a string of bits which must be sent,
received and processed according to strict clocks. Anything that gets
in the way might cause a problem, although I'm not sure what effect
buffering in the
TerryS;630246 Wrote:
> The explainations of how dithering works all seem to assume the signal
> is repetitive
I haven't seen anything that suggests this.
Let me try and tackle this in another way for you.
Fact: Quantisation error results in distortion of the encoding in the
LSB - End of.
But wh
adamdea;630206 Wrote:
> Please forgive me if i have got the wrong end of the stick, but I think
> you are barking up the wrong tree.
> I agree that the original linked article is interesting but i can't for
> myself see what it has to do with or to say about dither. It involved
> comparing wha
Phil Leigh;630140 Wrote:
> The concept of dither is totally independent of the underlying waveform.
> In sinple terms it is injecting a random element into the LSB. What is
> in the other bits makes no difference.
>
> Of course we do listen to sine waves - everything we hear is a very
> large n
soundcheck;630235 Wrote:
> What you're saying:
>
> You don't experience rebuffering issues on 7.6 in case you stream 24/96
> flac- or wav-tracks as PCM - decoded on the server.
>
> You tried to reproduce it by switching a couple of tracks quickly (let
> them run for 20s or so) back and forth
Phil Leigh;630189 Wrote:
>
> There have been various reports of rebuffering with 7.5.x. I haven't
> seen any with 7.6 (doesn't mean there aren't any of course).
What you're saying:
You don't experience rebuffering issues on 7.6 in case you stream 24/96
as PCM - decoded on the server.
You tr
jackocleebrown;630226 Wrote:
> Thanks for your reply, splitting the spdif out to two different DACs was
> something that I had already been thinking about but the "switching"
> functionality becomes a little tricky. Especially as ideally this is to
> be done from the listening position so that th
jackocleebrown;630227 Wrote:
> Thanks Phil, makes sense and is nice and simple... sounds like a winner
> to me. Do you ever run into problems that one pre-amp/integrated misses
> the IR signal?
Issue minimised if using 2 identical preamps, stacked closely.
However the risk does exist - in which
Phil Leigh;630225 Wrote:
> The best way I have found of doing this is as follows:
>
> Touch to DAC with 2 parallel outputs to - 2 identical pre or integrated
> amps that have configurable IR remote input selection (ie most
> mid-to-high end "non hair shirt" gear). These are then programmed so
>
ajmitchell;630213 Wrote:
> Hi I think you are making this too complicated. You want to compared two
> sets of speakers: set A and set B. First any SB outputs two sets of
> digital (optical and coax) at the same time (see
> http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65692&highlight=outputs)
>
The best way I have found of doing this is as follows:
Touch to DAC with 2 parallel outputs to - 2 identical pre or integrated
amps that have configurable IR remote input selection (ie most
mid-to-high end "non hair shirt" gear). These are then programmed so
that selecting (say) Input 1 on one am
I attach 2 files, the first is a network capture for PCM, the 2nd for
flac. I was stopping and restarting tracks during both. The PCM one
exhibits problems on the Touch, flac doesn't.
I have fuller '.cap' files if anyone is interested.
The Touch is connected to the same switch as the PC runn
Hi I think you are making this too complicated. You want to compared two
sets of speakers: set A and set B. First any SB outputs two sets of
digital (optical and coax) at the same time (see
http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=65692&highlight=outputs)
so you can run identical A+B side by
Phil Leigh;630189 Wrote:
> Typically file transfers across the network won't show up the same
> problems as the Touch rebuffering. AS others have said, the first thing
> to do is to temporarily attach the Touch directly to the Router that the
> SBS is attached to. That will hopefully eliminate th
TerryS;630121 Wrote:
> This finally gets us back to the point I was try to get to. Like I was
> trying to say, Redbook CD has relatively high levels of distortion as
> the signal level drops if dithering is not used. The example shows
> about -40dB (1%) harmonic distortion for a -70 dBfs signal
Actually no, the mute does not sync
Note also that the Touch doesn't have a USB out for a DAC. You would
have to continue to use SPDIF which presents another challenge to your
idea of using 2 DACs simultaneously with the one Touch
--
snottmonster
---
PasTim;630173 Wrote:
> I did mention I have a wired network, back in post 600, but there's a
> lot of stuff to plough through to find it.
>
> How do people suggest I should test my network? I'm willing to if I
> have some tools that tell me what's going on.
>
> I've not detected problems on d
snottmonster;630177 Wrote:
>
> Note also that given the wide variety of equipment available and ways
> in which it can be setup you cannot just assume that 2 people
> experiencing similar but generic symptoms actually have the same
> problem with the same root cause.
And that's exactly why I in
Hi Scottmonster,
Thanks for the suggestion, I guess that if they are both playing we
could then toggle the mute on each to switch between them does the
mute sync between players?
I was hoping for something a little bit cleaner though, easy for any of
the engineers to use and remaining perman
Whenever there is a problem that may be network related, and in the
absence of appropriate network testing tools, it is usually best to try
to reduce the number of variables by simplifying the network setup -
even to the point of setting up a direct connection between the client
& server.
In this
Phil Leigh;630162 Wrote:
> Where does PasTim state he is using a wired network?
I'm using a wired network. And I confirmed his findings.
Any relevant hints are appreciated - as usual. ;)
--
soundcheck
::: ' Touch Toolbox 2.0'
(http://soundcheck-audio.blogspot.com/2011/01/soundchecks-squeeze
Just a thought - but wouldn't it be a lot less effort to just have 2 SB
Touch? You could sync them if you are wanting to switch between speaker
setups while your tracks are playing
--
snottmonster
snottmonster's Profile: h
Phil Leigh;630166 Wrote:
> Thanks - I looked back through the posts but missed that!
>
> Wonder what PasTim means by less than ideal?
I did mention I have a wired network, back in post 600, but there's a
lot of stuff to plough through to find it.
How do people suggest I should test my network?
Hi all,
I have a slightly strange requirement which I think might be fulfilled
using the SB touch plus a little bit of fiddling with the software.
A bit of background:
I work for a loudspeaker company (KEF Audio) and we have been using the
slimserver/squeezebox system in our listening rooms fo
Robin Bowes;630165 Wrote:
> On 09/05/11 08:52, Phil Leigh wrote:
> >
> > Where does PasTim state he is using a wired network?
> >
>
> On 07/05/11 19:50, PasTim wrote:
> >
> > My ethernet (wired) network is less than ideal...
>
> It doesn't sound like PasTim is all that confident in his networ
On 09/05/11 08:52, Phil Leigh wrote:
>
> Where does PasTim state he is using a wired network?
>
On 07/05/11 19:50, PasTim wrote:
>
> My ethernet (wired) network is less than ideal...
It doesn't sound like PasTim is all that confident in his network. He
should do some simple testing to establish
soundcheck;630160 Wrote:
> I see. In this case you missed the subject.
>
> Anyhow. Your posts-counter went +1 ...and that's what really counts.
> ;)
>
>
>
>
>
Where does PasTim state he is using a wired network?
--
Phil Leigh
You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vi
Phil Leigh;630159 Wrote:
> I was talking about a WLAN :-)
I see. Then you missed the subject.
Anyhow. Your posts-counter went +1 ...and that's what really counts.
;)
Phil Leigh;630159 Wrote:
> I've never seen rebuffering on an ethernet lan...
Me neither.
Then it must be the Touch causing
soundcheck;630154 Wrote:
> I don't think so. Read my last post.
>
> I run a fast server and a fast optimized network - I actually slowed it
> down to 100MBit - which doesn't mean that I didn't test 1GBit.
> A 100MBIT wired network handles that 24/96 PCM load easily with plenty
> of headroom lef
soundcheck;630152 Wrote:
> I played quite intensive with 24/96 over the weekend. (I downloaded
> 24/96 Oscar Peterson - Night Train from HD Tracks - I love it.)
> I experience that random rebuffering on 24/96 "PCM" streams too.
> This rebuffering also happens if I quickly switch several tracks.
Phil Leigh;630146 Wrote:
> Rebuffering is caused by the inability of the server to supply data via
> the network to the player at the regular pace that is required.
>
I don't think so. Read my last post.
I run a fast server and a fast optimized network - I actually slowed it
down to 100MBit
PasTim;630098 Wrote:
> A basic scan takes several minutes for my ~14,000 tracks. Custom scan
> takes a further 1 to 2 hours to load non-standard tags. If SB server
> scans every time it starts up I'll miss my own funeral waiting for the
> music to start. I am one of those strange people who tu
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