Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
I think that having two lists would be a hassle and a mistake. To have two lists at one host might work, but one list at VGER and another somewhere else could be counter-productive, as internal communication would be constantly forwarded to the kernel list, and relevant kernel traffic would have to be forwarded back to the internal list. Think about that for a second. Eventually, we would probably just drop one list. If one list is O(n), then two lists are O(n^2) for anyone who needs both. I vote for one list, no matter where it's hosted. Don't understand the calculation as I would prefer + instead of * here, but this isn't the point (and if you would do program a bad matching algorithm here it is still O(M*N) ). Don't think that two lists are good without a good topic split. I see a reason for -devel, -users and -announcements list in some projects, but not for a list for kernel people and for other people. ... Haven't followed the whole discussion, but is it real such a big problem to change the mailing list address? OK, it shouldn't be done every week, but this is done for a good reason. Just do an announcement on this list and create an auto reply (smtp failure notice with further information) when someone writes to the old list. I agree with all of this. My point is that multiple lists should at least be hosted at the same place. The topic split is a good point, too; if there were two -devel lists, I think all of the developers would eventually use the kernel people list exclusively. Maybe more interesting is the fact that if we can import old information into the new list. I think mailman stores everything in simple mboxes, or am I wrong? And also interesting if we can do backups of the data on vger and co. Just looked at the VGER website, and they use majordomo. I don't know much about these things; can mailman data be imported to majordomo? A quick look around reveals no email addresses to contact them, other than some that seem to be spambot honeypots. What do we need in order to make a decision? I would like to get this transition happening soon so that real work can move forward. Jacob
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
On Wednesday 30 September 2009 13:39:21 Jacob Marble wrote: Just looked at the VGER website, and they use majordomo. I don't know much about these things; can mailman data be imported to majordomo? A quick look around reveals no email addresses to contact them, other than some that seem to be spambot honeypots. What do we need in order to make a decision? I would like to get this transition happening soon so that real work can move forward. Ok, I feel a consensus that the open-mesh domain is not that important compared to having only one list. Personally, I don't think paying for a list is a good solution because sooner or later that will become an issue (even if it is not much money). Other than that I'm fine with every list you think is best. We should be able to somehow import the existing users (I can provide a list of mail addresses as a text file) and we should have archives somewhere. Regards, Marek
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
On Mon, Sep 28, 2009 at 12:12 AM, Jacob Marble jacobmar...@gmail.com wrote: a) has experience hosting, and so can filter spam without hassle b) lets us use open-mesh.net instead of super-duper-mailing-host.com c) hosts open source gratis a and b are must have, c would be nice. EMWD (http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html) looks like a regular webhost with better-than-average mailing list support. They claim to have spam filters in place, and they charge US$4/month. I emailed them regarding hosting with open-mesh.net I got an email this morning from Brian Carpenter at EMWD: quote Hi Jacob: Thank you for your interest in our services. a) filters spam very well b) allows the list to be hosted using our domain name, not yours We meet both of those requirement. Just keep in mind that since you cannot have a domain point to two servers (Mailman requires a web server), you will need to use a domain name that is not in current use or you can use a sub-domain off of your main domain such as list.open-mesh.net. We currently have about 100 message/month in traffic. Does this describe your $4/month service? How many members will be subscribed to your list? /quote This is the best alternative that I have found. They charge $4/month for up to 1000 subscribers and 1-8 posts/day. Looking at the archives, I don't think this will be a problem for us. We can pay more for up to 20,000 subscribers with this service. If you guys are comfortable with this, then I need to work out details with Brian (how many subscribers, how to pay, can we import the existing archive, DNS records). IMHO, I feel that better alternatives exist if we drop requirement b, but I'm happy to be sysadmin for the list, wherever we host it. Jake
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
a) filters spam very well b) allows the list to be hosted using our domain name, not yours We meet both of those requirement. Just keep in mind that since you cannot have a domain point to two servers (Mailman requires a web server), you will need to use a domain name that is not in current use or you can use a sub-domain off of your main domain such as list.open-mesh.net. We currently have about 100 message/month in traffic. Does this describe your $4/month service? How many members will be subscribed to your list? /quote This is the best alternative that I have found. They charge $4/month for up to 1000 subscribers and 1-8 posts/day. I would read the small print. We currently have 100 messages/month to a closed list. Once it is an open list, and well publicised, the amount of spam will increase dramatically. I personally get 100-200 spams per day. Does this 1-8 posts per day include or exclude spam? However, thanks for doing a good job so far. Andrew
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
[...] * We create the additional new list while keeping the old one. The new list is for the communication with the kernel developers. Opinions ? I think that having two lists would be a hassle and a mistake. To have two lists at one host might work, but one list at VGER and another somewhere else could be counter-productive, as internal communication would be constantly forwarded to the kernel list, and relevant kernel traffic would have to be forwarded back to the internal list. Think about that for a second. Eventually, we would probably just drop one list. If one list is O(n), then two lists are O(n^2) for anyone who needs both. I vote for one list, no matter where it's hosted. Don't understand the calculation as I would prefer + instead of * here, but this isn't the point (and if you would do program a bad matching algorithm here it is still O(M*N) ). Don't think that two lists are good without a good topic split. I see a reason for -devel, -users and -announcements list in some projects, but not for a list for kernel people and for other people. commercial solution (EMWD): - spam filtering - open-mesh.net - small price US$20/month open source host (VGER, freelists.org) - spam filtering - their-domain.com - no price - we get added to their project directory, so potential contributors see us Haven't followed the whole discussion, but is it real such a big problem to change the mailing list address? OK, it shouldn't be done every week, but this is done for a good reason. Just do an announcement on this list and create an auto reply (smtp failure notice with further information) when someone writes to the old list. Maybe more interesting is the fact that if we can import old information into the new list. I think mailman stores everything in simple mboxes, or am I wrong? And also interesting if we can do backups of the data on vger and co. Best regards, Sven signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
Sorry for the delay, busy week. So, I'm looking for a mailing host that: a) has experience hosting, and so can filter spam without hassle b) lets us use open-mesh.net instead of super-duper-mailing-host.com c) hosts open source gratis a and b are must have, c would be nice. I've looked at sourceforge, but their mailing list service looks very canned and they only allow listname@lists.sourceforge.net. Also, SF already has a project called batman, so I created one called batman2 (there are surely more creative project names available). I have created a test account: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/admin/batman2-test There was briefly a discussion about renaming batman-adv to something else, but that discussion seemed to of died before reaching any conclusion. So for the moment i would suggest for the moment we keep with batman. Andrew
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
On Sun, Sep 27, 2009 at 11:03 PM, Andrew Lunn and...@lunn.ch wrote: a) has experience hosting, and so can filter spam without hassle b) lets us use open-mesh.net instead of super-duper-mailing-host.com c) hosts open source gratis a and b are must have, c would be nice. I started going down the list at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_open_source_software_hosting_facilities#Features Codendi looks like a very comprehensive solution, probably excessive. The following require that every list subscriber have yet another username/password and they all host mailing lists at mail-host.com: sourceforge.net tigris.org launchpad.net Another alternative is freelists.org, which only hosts @freelists.org, but does not require subscribers to log in to their site, ever. I found them because the Haiku OS project uses them. There are others listed, but I feel like this is a wrong path. Now I'm looking at services listed at the Mailman wiki: http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/Mailman+hosting+services A lot of these services are VPS, which tells me that they let the customer handle details like spam. JPBerlin (http://www.jpberlin.de/) looks good, but I don't know any German. The Mailman like says CEO Peer Heinlein is the maintainer of the german Mailman-translation and author of a book about secure mail-server administration. Thielpark Systeme GmbH (http://www.thielpark.de/) I will contact this one. Reliable Mailman hosting on Linux with per list templates/language files, MHonArc integration for archiving and searching, customization of templates to match look of your website. Address import from various data sources. EMWD (http://www.emwd.com/mailman.html) looks like a regular webhost with better-than-average mailing list support. They claim to have spam filters in place, and they charge US$4/month. I emailed them regarding hosting with open-mesh.net More later. Jake
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
I don't have a server that would work for this, but I think it would be nice to find a service that hosts FOSS projects for free, but normally charges for the service. ??That way, no one in the batman project has to worry about servers failing/upgrading/migrating/etc. The first example that comes to mind is XMission because they are my ISP. ??They use Mailman (same as we're using now), so we might even be able to transfer the messages on the current Mailman server to the new one. ??I'm not at all familiar with Mailman, but I'll call them today and see what they say. http://mailman.xmission.com/ Jake I just got off the phone with a sales guy at XMission. He says mailing lists are US$3/month. I can cover this. How does that sound, Marek? Do you have something else in mind? What is important is the quality of its spam filtering. We need something with very high quality, eg like sourceforge, vger, or sourceware would provide. So i would suggest a provider with a proven record of hosting open source project mailing lists which are open for anybody to post to. Andrew
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Marek Lindner lindner_ma...@yahoo.de wrote: On Wednesday 09 September 2009 00:01:46 Andrew Lunn wrote: The steps as i see it: 1) Make a decision about which list server to use. I think as soon as we havea short list of options we can make the decision. At the moment I see no need/desire for a long discussion. :-) 2) Contact the sysadmin and ask for a list to be setup. Volunteer needed here. I would like to volunteer. 3) Export the list of subscribers. That will be me. 4) Import the list of subscribers. Probably the same volunteer. I don't have a server that would work for this, but I think it would be nice to find a service that hosts FOSS projects for free, but normally charges for the service. That way, no one in the batman project has to worry about servers failing/upgrading/migrating/etc. The first example that comes to mind is XMission because they are my ISP. They use Mailman (same as we're using now), so we might even be able to transfer the messages on the current Mailman server to the new one. I'm not at all familiar with Mailman, but I'll call them today and see what they say. http://mailman.xmission.com/ Jake
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Jacob Marble jacobmar...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Sep 8, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Marek Lindner lindner_ma...@yahoo.de wrote: On Wednesday 09 September 2009 00:01:46 Andrew Lunn wrote: The steps as i see it: 1) Make a decision about which list server to use. I think as soon as we havea short list of options we can make the decision. At the moment I see no need/desire for a long discussion. :-) 2) Contact the sysadmin and ask for a list to be setup. Volunteer needed here. I would like to volunteer. 3) Export the list of subscribers. That will be me. 4) Import the list of subscribers. Probably the same volunteer. I don't have a server that would work for this, but I think it would be nice to find a service that hosts FOSS projects for free, but normally charges for the service. That way, no one in the batman project has to worry about servers failing/upgrading/migrating/etc. The first example that comes to mind is XMission because they are my ISP. They use Mailman (same as we're using now), so we might even be able to transfer the messages on the current Mailman server to the new one. I'm not at all familiar with Mailman, but I'll call them today and see what they say. http://mailman.xmission.com/ Jake I just got off the phone with a sales guy at XMission. He says mailing lists are US$3/month. I can cover this. How does that sound, Marek? Do you have something else in mind?
Re: [B.A.T.M.A.N.] mailing list migration (was: development flow)
On Wednesday 09 September 2009 00:01:46 Andrew Lunn wrote: The steps as i see it: 1) Make a decision about which list server to use. I think as soon as we havea short list of options we can make the decision. At the moment I see no need/desire for a long discussion. :-) 2) Contact the sysadmin and ask for a list to be setup. Volunteer needed here. 3) Export the list of subscribers. That will be me. 4) Import the list of subscribers. Probably the same volunteer. 5) Modify the MX record. That will be Elektra. I guess vger is probably the least flexible about domain names. Mail coming from the list might not be using the lists.open-mesh.net domain. So maybe someone should ask sourceforge and sourceware if they could provide the list using this domain. If possible I'd like to keep the domain name. It will create less confusion. I can create git.open-mesh.com so that we have an official git to pull from ? I think this is a good idea. It is probably easier for GregKH to do a pull then handle lots of patches. Elektra already created the DNS record. I will setup the necessary stuff in the next days. Regards, Marek
