RE: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
> the one that brings tears to my eyes is animation without a timeline. > it must be de facto that one starts with onion-skinning, a > score and timeline, but I'm not sure that a timeline-less format would be best. I can get my head round a timeline based animation format quite easily (and indeed when I was younger I did a fair bit of Flash stuff, although I lost interest as ActionScript became more and more technical). Timelines were very useful for ensuring audiovisual synchronisation, although Flash now has vastly superior native multimedia support. > the essence of the issue with flash is repurposing, not price. > that's tools and content. True, but Adobe, née Macromedia, spent a lot of time and money gradually fleshing out the format to the point where... Well, when was the last time you saw a Director presentation? Flash just does pretty much everything that's needed of developers and designers, albeit with the proprietary caveat. However, it is truly ubiquitous and requires no additional steps to functionality (save maybe a prompted click or two to install the plugin in user-installed browsers). If I was to suggest an IE8 user get SVG going, and they had no experience of installing browser plugins outside of the cocoon of 'mainstream' plugins, where to start? Repurposing is a lesser concern, not that I see an argument against repurposing, I just don't see an argument *for* repurposing, at least outside of the CC arena. All of the BBC's creations are copyright, and SVG is inherently an unprotected format which is editable by anyone. (please correct if inaccurate, this is my perception) Therefore, the diffusion of copyrighted material and availability in SVG are mutually exclusive objectives. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
Christopher, excellent points, the real crux you circle but failed (to) state is the lack of excellent authoring tools. the one that brings tears to my eyes is animation without a timeline. it must be de facto that one starts with onion-skinning, a score and timeline, but the essence of the issue with flash is repurposing, not price. that's tools and content. one just has to laugh... best Jonathan - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
Apple devices, both mobile and desktop, still occupy a minority across the deployed userbase (just a disporportionately large mindshare, the Reality Distortion Effect hard at work as always). Android & MS still have lion's share of mobile devices worldwide and they're going to be locked in a battle for the next couple of years with new devices, with Apple's stuff receiving just incremental updates. (yes, I know Mobile Safari using the UIWebView class renders SVG) As a 'regular user' I regard Jonathan as an SVG Zealot (in the best possible way!) While I'm all for standards, particularly open ones, implementing SVG would be a painful and problematic migration for the Beeb. And as any fule kno, sites as popular as bbc.co.uk need to conform to a lowest common denominator of accessibility. SVG is *not* a lowest common denominator format. If SVGs need explaining to average web users they're not ready for the big time just yet. IMHO SVG needs 4-5 more years before being accepted as a de facto format to the extent that Flash is. It's reached mass penetration when all mobile handsets' default browsers render SVG in realtime (save one stubborn hardware house, we're almost there now with Flash and that's taken a HECK of a lot of work by Adobe + mobile OS developers). I dislike SVG in this regard due to its bleeding edgeness, it presents a sharp learning curve for me and I'm not a newbie by any means. It's taken long enough to get true cross-browser PNG w/ alpha channel support without having to resort to ridiculous levels of code hackery. Keep on fighting the good fight Jonathan... :-) I think you're pushing at a bricked-up door in the meantime though for a BBC.co.uk rollout. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
David, did you read the rest of the sentence? you didn't quote it and it is highly relevant. ~:" On 29 Nov 2010, at 12:01, David Dorward wrote: On 29 Nov 2010, at 11:55, Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: As a website funded by the licence fee, it's more important to us that as many people have access to the content than necessarily being at the bleeding edge of technology. IE6 and 7 are both in our Level 1 browser support categorisation which is why SVG is currently a non-goer. this was pre-IE9 support, and Patrick Dengler joining the SVG WG iirc IE9 supporting SVG doesn't cause IE8 and lower to support it — and they have massive market share, and will have for a long time to come. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html . Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
On 29 Nov 2010, at 11:55, Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: >> As a website funded by the licence fee, it's more important to us that >> as many people have access to the content than necessarily being at the >> bleeding edge of technology. IE6 and 7 are both in our Level 1 browser >> support categorisation which is why SVG is currently a non-goer. > this was pre-IE9 support, and Patrick Dengler joining the SVG WG iirc IE9 supporting SVG doesn't cause IE8 and lower to support it — and they have massive market share, and will have for a long time to come. -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
this was pre-IE9 support, and Patrick Dengler joining the SVG WG iirc and as already noted, since ipad, itouch and iphone this rings false steve already claims, these are already more popular than all other games consoles, again iirc apologies my memory is sadly absent ~:" As a website funded by the licence fee, it's more important to us that as many people have access to the content than necessarily being at the bleeding edge of technology. IE6 and 7 are both in our Level 1 browser support categorisation which is why SVG is currently a non-goer. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
Thought the BBC's browser support guidelines may help here http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/technical/ http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/technical/browser_support.sh tml http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/technical/multimedia_plugins _flash.shtml As a website funded by the licence fee, it's more important to us that as many people have access to the content than necessarily being at the bleeding edge of technology. IE6 and 7 are both in our Level 1 browser support categorisation which is why SVG is currently a non-goer. > -Original Message- > From: owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk > [mailto:owner-backst...@lists.bbc.co.uk] On Behalf Of > Jonathan Chetwynd > Sent: 29 November 2010 11:37 > To: backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk > Subject: Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable > vector graphics content? > > two-fold > > 1.There is currently a notion to release government > data, and the > BBC has already included itself in this process by for > instance releasing salaries of certain key executives. > > 2.as already mentioned recent releases of all popular > browsers now > display SVG. > > As it will take the BBC quite some time to integrate SVG into > their creative process, aka lead-in time, is this perhaps a > third reason?? > > regards > > Jonathan Chetwynd > > > On 29 Nov 2010, at 11:07, Stephen Jolly wrote: > > > what are the other reasons why the BBC should be looking > into making > > the change at this point in time? > > - > Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To > unsubscribe, please visit > http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. > Unofficial list archive: > http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ > - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
Hi On 29 Nov 2010, at 11:33, Mo McRoberts wrote: > (and that's even assuming SVG is the right tool for the job anyway; I > suspect + JS will probably end up seeing more use over SVG > for a lot of stuff...) Another vector for this argument? [think I agree though] Ben -- Ben Weiner | http://readingtype.org.uk/about/contact.html +44 (0) 7780 608 659 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
two-fold 1. There is currently a notion to release government data, and the BBC has already included itself in this process by for instance releasing salaries of certain key executives. 2. as already mentioned recent releases of all popular browsers now display SVG. As it will take the BBC quite some time to integrate SVG into their creative process, aka lead-in time, is this perhaps a third reason?? regards Jonathan Chetwynd On 29 Nov 2010, at 11:07, Stephen Jolly wrote: what are the other reasons why the BBC should be looking into making the change at this point in time? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
On Mon, Nov 29, 2010 at 11:17, Ben Weiner wrote: > Bearing in mind your opening remark, does licensing attributable to Flash > cost a lot [of the licence-payers' money]? it's a cost/benefit thing, though. if, e.g., CBeebies games were reworked as SVG, then it'd cut off a big chunk of the audience -- so the cost of Flash would have to be particularly significant for it to be not worth it. (and that's even assuming SVG is the right tool for the job anyway; I suspect + JS will probably end up seeing more use over SVG for a lot of stuff...) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
On 29 Nov 2010, at 11:07, Stephen Jolly wrote: > I don't have any inside information on the subject, but I suspect the BBC > would be most likely to move away from flash either (a) if it would save > money, or (b) to increase reach on devices that don't support it. Aside from > the general desirability of working with and supporting open standards, what > are the other reasons why the BBC should be looking into making the change at > this point in time? Bearing in mind your opening remark, does licensing attributable to Flash cost a lot [of the licence-payers' money]? Ben -- Ben Weiner | http://readingtype.org.uk/about/contact.html +44 (0) 7780 608 659 - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] where is the BBC's SVG or scaleable vector graphics content?
On 27 Nov 2010, at 19:58, Jonathan Chetwynd wrote: > much of the BBC's online production has been released in flash (JAM) and > other proprietary mediums. > > IE9 will implement SVG along with Mozilla, Safari-Webkit, Google-Chrome, > Opera and other standards-compliant web browsers. > > Given the visual nature of much of the BBC's content, it would be interesting > and perhaps stimulating to see some evidence of engagement with this web > standard for graphics, which has been available for a decade. I don't have any inside information on the subject, but I suspect the BBC would be most likely to move away from flash either (a) if it would save money, or (b) to increase reach on devices that don't support it. Aside from the general desirability of working with and supporting open standards, what are the other reasons why the BBC should be looking into making the change at this point in time? S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
